charging dual rates for solo flights?

exncsurfer

exncsurfer

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exncsurfer
Charging dual rates for solo flights? I'm just curious if this is a common practice, I saw this at a school and thought it was odd. I can understand paying an instructor for their time pre or post flight briefing, but charging dual rates for all solo hours flown? I don't get it. Anyone seen this before?

When I did my PPL, I just payed the standard rental rate for solo time.
 
As a CFI, if I have to be there for a supervised solo. I am charging. It is common practice at many flight schools. Being a CFI is a job, so like any job if you have to be there for whatever reason. You will expect to be paid wouldn’t you?
 
TommyG said:
As a CFI, if I have to be there for a supervised solo. I am charging. It is common practice at many flight schools. Being a CFI is a job, so like any job if you have to be there for whatever reason. You will expect to be paid wouldn’t you?
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When you say supervised solo are you saying any flight a student makes that has required your endorsement such as a cross country, flight into Class Bravo, etc?
 
TommyG said:
As a CFI, if I have to be there for a supervised solo. I am charging. It is common practice at many flight schools. Being a CFI is a job, so like any job if you have to be there for whatever reason. You will expect to be paid wouldn’t you?
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Maybe this is what they expect of their CFI's and don't allow their students to solo unless a CFI is sitting around waiting for you to get back. But after my solo sign off, going forward, I only had to consult with my CFI(text message or phone call) before scheduling and flying a solo flight with no presence of the CFI required.

Did you ever work anywhere that required all solo's to be supervised?
 
exncsurfer said:
Maybe this is what they expect of their CFI's and don't allow their students to solo unless a CFI is sitting around waiting for you to get back. But after my solo sign off, going forward, I only had to consult with my CFI(text message or phone call) before scheduling and flying a solo flight with no presence of the CFI required.

Did you ever work anywhere that required all solo's to be supervised?
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What about solo xc?
 
exncsurfer said:
Charging dual rates for solo flights? I'm just curious if this is a common practice, I saw this at a school and thought it was odd. I can understand paying an instructor for their time pre or post flight briefing, but charging dual rates for all solo hours flown? I don't get it. Anyone seen this before?

When I did my PPL, I just payed the standard rental rate for solo time.
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What you are addressing is supervised solo.

For Part 141 schools, FAA requires a CFI to be present on site to release solo flights. There is no FAA requirement that the CFI be the students primary instructor or that the CFI remain on site after solo release. If an instructor has to drive to airport during his off duty time it is only right he be paid and the 15 minutes it took him to review the WX and the flight isn’t going to cut it.

Some Part 141 school opt to have the CFI on duty until the student returns. If the school is affiliated with a university program, supervised solo may be a university requirement.
 
TommyG said:
As a CFI, if I have to be there for a supervised solo. I am charging. It is common practice at many flight schools. Being a CFI is a job, so like any job if you have to be there for whatever reason. You will expect to be paid wouldn’t you?
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Maybe, but you’re not providing any benefit to the student at that point. I shouldn’t have to pay for you to sit around the FBO and listen to the CTAF or stand outside and watch me takeoff.
 
Dean V said:
What you are addressing is supervised solo.

For Part 141 schools, FAA requires a CFI to be present on site to release solo flights. There is no FAA requirement that the CFI be the students primary instructor or that the CFI remain on site after solo release. If an instructor has to drive to airport during his off duty time it is only right he be paid and the 15 minutes it took him to review the WX and the flight isn’t going to cut it.

Some Part 141 school opt to have the CFI on duty until the student returns. If the school is affiliated with a university program, supervised solo may be a university requirement.
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Ok, but would(should) this translate into billing for dual based on solo hobbs time?
 
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exncsurfer said:
Ok, but would(should) this translate into billing for dual based on solo hobbs time?
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Ok, tell me what’s fair? It takes you an an hour to shower, get dressed, and drive to the airport, then another 15 minutes to make sure the student has got a WX brief and review the WX and where he is going. Then another 30 minutes to drive home. So you invested 1:45 of you day plus gas for a student on a 1 to 1-1/2 hour solo.
 
I guess I got lucky back in the day. I never paid the CFI for solo anything. I never paid for any ground instruction. I studied on my own and we talked stuff over while we were flying or sometimes after the flight. Guess they don't make CFI's and flight schools like they used to.
 
Yet another reason why the pilot population is in decline. An instructor should get paid for providing instruction. Not for sitting around reading the paper.
 
Dean V said:
[


Ok, tell me what’s fair? It takes you an an hour to shower, get dressed, and drive to the airport, then another 15 minutes to make sure the student has got a WX brief and review the WX and where he is going. Then another 30 minutes to drive home. So you invested 1:45 of you day plus gas for a student on a 1 to 1-1/2 hour solo.
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The school should pay you if the school needs you there as an employee. Charging dual for Hobbs time to be there to release flights is absurd.
 
Maybe they are double dipping. Get your one guy started on his solo XC then get in another plane with another student and do a lesson? That is essentially what my instructor did but he wasn't charging me for his time.
 
mryan75 said:
The school should pay you if the school needs you there as an employee. Charging dual for Hobbs time to be there to release flights is absurd.
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Sounds good to me. Start your own Part 141 flight school and do that. You really will be upset when you figure out you have to pay a chief flight instructor to supervise the CFIs and maintain a bunch of records.
 
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"Supervised solo"

GTFAway from any school that requires that. Once my students are signed off of solo, they are out of the nest. I don't need to hand hold them if they want to do pattern work, or practice area work, or whatever else there is. What's the point of signing them off for solo if you're going to be right there with a handheld baby sitting them every time?

Even for their solo XC's it's just "call or text me when you take off, and call or text me when you've parked it for the day."
(I don't always sign the logbook the day of the flight)
 
TommyG said:
As a CFI, if I have to be there for a supervised solo. I am charging. It is common practice at many flight schools. Being a CFI is a job, so like any job if you have to be there for whatever reason. You will expect to be paid wouldn’t you?
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Depends. If you are supervising, then I expect you to be outside with binoculars and a radio. If the pilot isn't visible, then you aren't supervising. If you're sitting inside drinking coffee and maybe talking to another student, then also charging the guy who is flying around might rise to the level of being illegal.
 
DFH65 said:
Maybe they are double dipping. Get your one guy started on his solo XC then get in another plane with another student and do a lesson? That is essentially what my instructor did but he wasn't charging me for his time.
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Same here... sat for 45 minutes prior to the flight to review the weather, flight plan, airspace, what I was going to do to avoid Camp David etc..., and then we called flight service together to get the brief and file... did this on a new found contraction called a speaker phone.. His only request of me from me was to call the school collect (anyone here remember how to do that) if I had any problems with the plane or weather.. other than that, have a good flight, and we'll debrief the next day...

Dean V said:
Ok, tell me what’s fair? It takes you an an hour to shower, get dressed, and drive to the airport, then another 15 minutes to make sure the student has got a WX brief and review the WX and where he is going. Then another 30 minutes to drive home. So you invested 1:45 of you day plus gas for a student on a 1 to 1-1/2 hour solo.
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What is fair is that you charge for the time you are face to face with the student.. If you don't feel you're being compensated correctly talk to the school about getting more of the hourly rate with the example you provided above..
 
I don't consider all solos to be supervised and billable. I may charge ground instruction rate for the first, or maybe second, solo when the student is in the pattern and I am directly watching, and coaching if necessary. That seems fair for the time I am dedicating to help the student in the airplane, not sloughing off or scheduling someone else on top of it. Solo cross-countries and beyond, only the ground time necessary to review their planning and endorsements. I'm not asking to get paid for every hour spent solo.

Hell one day I had multiple students on solo cross-countries, another solo in the pattern, and was flying with another simultaneously. I only wish I got paid for that! :biggrin:

Yes the expense of flight training runs prospective pilots off, but guys so eager to fly and work for free is what has kept wages for pilots in the tank for years. I only flight instruct part-time, I have a day job that pays the bills. But for the full time guys to have to put in 12+ hour days for less than 8 hours of pay for poverty level wages doesn't help aviation either.
 
This sounds like a problem for the flight school /independent CFI to work out with its business model. As a student, I would expect dual to be charged only when I am logging dual time in my log book or spending time on ground instruction. Since the CFI needs to get paid by the school, this should be factored into the dual rate. Or charge a lower "supervised rate" or a line item flat fee for these supervised solos.

I think most (but of course not all) students who have the financial ability to pay for training can understand the concept of a flight school being a business that has to make a profit and the flight instructor needs to be paid for their time/make a living. They can also come to the conclusion that paying the full dual rate when not actually getting dual instruction doesn't smell right and go elsewhere.
 
Hate to break it to you guys, but majority of CFIs I know charge dual for supervised solo. That is usually on the 1st or second solo completely on thier own. It’s a business not a charity. Its also my butt on the line if something happens.

And has been stated earlier. If I have to interrupt my day to go out to the airport. I’m gonna get paid.


How many of you are at work playing on the internet or checking Facebook while getting paid? Is there a difference?
 
Never heard of this. So I learned something new today.
 
So what exactly does a CFI do during supervised solo? Provide emotional support, or to yell more right rudder on CTAF? This makes no sense. If a student needs to be supervised from the ground, he is not ready to solo.
 
Hi everyone.
I find this discussion very interesting.
Thing like "I have to interrupt my" "drive to the airport" ""spend time".... that is your job, at least 8 hrs like everyone else, you don't get to double dip.
Get out of this business is you are not reasonable and find a full time job cleaning the toilets, or something, see how long it takes to get to work, how long you have to stay...
To the OP, move away from that bunch and find a real CFI that is interest in teaching and not moving on to Heavies and other carp.
 
sarangan said:
So what exactly does a CFI do during supervised solo? Provide emotional support, or to yell more right rudder on CTAF? This makes no sense. If a student needs to be supervised from the ground, he is not ready to solo.
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Nicely said and I couldn’t agree more.
 
bflynn said:
Depends. If you are supervising, then I expect you to be outside with binoculars and a radio. If the pilot isn't visible, then you aren't supervising. If you're sitting inside drinking coffee and maybe talking to another student, then also charging the guy who is flying around might rise to the level of being illegal.
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My employer pays me when they require me to be at work, whether I’m benefiting anyone or not. I don’t think that’s unusual.

If the flight school requires the instructor to be in the office when his student is flying solo, the instructor should expect to be paid.

What it comes down to is whether the student pays for that time directly or the instructor rate is significantly bumped so that actual instruction time covers it. The customer pays for it one way or another.

Now, whether I would patronize a flight school that won’t let anyone solo without an instructor present is another matter.
 
I was signed off to take my checkride this previous Sunday. that being said I have paid dual time for every minute I have been in the airplane. My instructors reasoning was that he is responsible for me as long as I was his student. All of my solos including all cross countries were charged as dual. My long xc took 3 hrs on the Hobbs. I honestly figured this must be normal now. I see I was wrong
 
And folks wonder why it’s the inexperienced newbs doing the teaching...
 
TennVolsPilot39 said:
that being said I have paid dual time for every minute I have been in the airplane. My instructors reasoning was that he is responsible for me as long as I was his student. All of my solos including all cross countries were charged as dual. My long xc took 3 hrs on the Hobbs. I honestly figured this must be normal now. I see I was wrong
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Very wrong, you got scammed unfortunately.
 
TennVolsPilot39 said:
I was signed off to take my checkride this previous Sunday. that being said I have paid dual time for every minute I have been in the airplane. My instructors reasoning was that he is responsible for me as long as I was his student. All of my solos including all cross countries were charged as dual. My long xc took 3 hrs on the Hobbs. I honestly figured this must be normal now. I see I was wrong
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It would be interesting to see how the instructor would have shouldered his responsibility had you done something stupid like running out of gas.
 
I have never paid dual when the instructor wasn't in the plane. I'd be willing to bet people who charge dual for solos also never finish someone up before 80 hours
 
Ventucky Red said:
Same here... sat for 45 minutes prior to the flight to review the weather, flight plan, airspace, what I was going to do to avoid Camp David etc..., and then we called flight service together to get the brief and file... did this on a new found contraction called a speaker phone.. His only request of me from me was to call the school collect (anyone here remember how to do that) if I had any problems with the plane or weather.. other than that, have a good flight, and we'll debrief the next day...



What is fair is that you charge for the time you are face to face with the student.. If you don't feel you're being compensated correctly talk to the school about getting more of the hourly rate with the example you provided above..
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Whole lot easier to tell the student to talk to the school about it while I enjoy my off time. Those are the two people that got to figure it out.
 
sarangan said:
So what exactly does a CFI do during supervised solo? Provide emotional support, or to yell more right rudder on CTAF? This makes no sense. If a student needs to be supervised from the ground, he is not ready to solo.
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I offer guidance if they seem to be struggling, for example on a landing. I've had a student get frustrated in the pattern when someone else made a boneheaded move and didn't know what to do. It isn't that they are unprepared, but let's face it they only have 10-20 hours flying an airplane. The first solo can be intimidating and exciting.

Now like I said first solo, maybe second if really necessary, but that's it. Any solos after that they are on their own. I'd never imagine charging for a solo XC. That's ridiculous.
 
Dean V said:
Whole lot easier to tell the student to talk to the school about it while I enjoy my off time. Those are the two people that got to figure it out.
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So you're saying this is not your policy, but the school's policy?
 
Dean V said:
[


Ok, tell me what’s fair? It takes you an an hour to shower, get dressed, and drive to the airport, then another 15 minutes to make sure the student has got a WX brief and review the WX and where he is going. Then another 30 minutes to drive home. So you invested 1:45 of you day plus gas for a student on a 1 to 1-1/2 hour solo.
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I do that every single working day and don't get paid for any of my preparation time or commuting time. If I did, I'd find a job further from home so my paycheck would go up (because I earn much more per hour than it costs to drive my old truck! :D ). But honestly, you earned 15 minutes' pay if it took you that long to review the weather.

Never had a boss volunteer to pay me for showering and driving to work, and don't expect to ever have one do so. Pay for taking a shower in the morning??? I'd also never pay anyone for that, although I do sometimes pay Field Service Technicians travel time from their out-of-state office to our plant, but still no driving time back and forth to the hotel, nor do I pay them to sleep in the hotel or to eat. Your work day starts after you get to work, not when your alarm goes off . . . . . Dumkopf

Pay an instructor to drive to the airport? Pay an instructor to sit around the field a couple of hours while I'm out flying? You're out of your freakin', over-entitled, avocado-toasted mind! You'd bill me like that once, and we'd reach an understanding that you won't try that **** again.
 
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