charging dual rates for solo flights?

Salty said:
I doubt I’ll work for a flight school because it won’t be my primary income. But I have zero doubt I will give a lot of free ground school because I love talking aviation and helping myself and others be better at it. Even my worst instructors spent time discussing stuff while off the clock.
Click to expand...

You are talking about hobby instruction doing this stuff on Saturday and maybe an evening a week. There noting wrong with being a hobby instructor and if you give an hour or two free, no big deal. Once you realize CFI insurance costs money, you might not be so generous and if you are going to teach in a non-profit club I encourage you to read their insurance policy.

Give an hour free to each of your 8 students at a flight school each week and you soon figure out you are working several weeks for free a year.
 
Clip4 said:
You are talking about hobby instruction doing this stuff on Saturday and maybe an evening a week. There noting wrong with being a hobby instructor and if you give an hour or two free, no big deal. Once you realize CFI insurance costs money, you might not be so generous and if you are going to teach in a non-profit club I encourage you to read their insurance policy.

Give an hour free to each of your 8 students at a flight school each week and you soon figure out you are working several weeks for free a year.
Click to expand...
So don’t do that. But don’t charge me for dual when you aren’t giving me dual either. You can’t have it both ways.

Nobody ever claimed being a CFI was a good career. It’s a shame, but the industry just isn’t set up for that. I’d retire today if you could actually make money at it. I’d enjoy a lot of jobs I’d make no money doing. That’s why I do what I do instead of what I want to do.
 
Salty said:
So don’t do that. But don’t charge me for dual when you aren’t giving me dual either. You can’t have it both ways.

Nobody ever claimed being a CFI was a good career. It’s a shame, but the industry just isn’t set up for that. I’d retire today if you could actually make money at it. I’d enjoy a lot of jobs I’d make no money doing. That’s why I do what I do instead of what I want to do.
Click to expand...

If the employer requires the CFI at the airport while you fly solo, the employer is going to charge you, and the CFI is going compensated for that time. Simple as that. It is the school’s policies you have issue with.

There are many very reputable flight schools charging students for dual on supervised solo flights. Where you go is your option. A 100 student school with 20 on the waiting list really doesn’t care what you think.
 
Clip4 said:
If the employer requires the CFI at the airport while you fly solo, the employer is going to charge you, and the CFI is going compensated for that time. Simple as that. It is the school’s policies you have issue with.

There are many very reputable flight schools charging students for dual on supervised solo flights. Where you go is your option. A 100 student school with 20 on the waiting list really doesn’t care what you think.
Click to expand...
Nor do I care what thieves think of me calling them thieves.
 
Salty said:
Nor do I care what thieves think of me calling them thieves.
Click to expand...

The other item I would invite you to review before you become a CFI is a 141 school syllabus. The Jeppesen Private Syllabus is used at a lot of schools. It outlines all the pre and post flight discussion to take place prior to each lesson as well as the required ground school lessons that must be completed prior to the flight lessons.

As an example, one poster suggested exchanging texts for a review of XC planning. A Part 141 syllabus requires both a pre and post flight briefing covering specific items. Each solo has specific objectives, completion standards, preflight and post flight discussion. In a 141 school as a CFI you are required to follow the syllabus and top quality flight schools monitor the CFIs to assure the syllabus is followed.

To call a flight school that maintains procedures that far exceed those you are willing to accept as a hobby CFI is not dishonest.
 
I expect my student to bring me donuts. Even on days that I don’t instruct. It’s really about a lifestyle choice. If you don’t want to pay dual rates while you bring me donuts don’t come a knockin
 
Clip4 said:
The other item I would invite you to review before you become a CFI is a 141 school syllabus. The Jeppesen Private Syllabus is used at a lot of schools. It outlines all the pre and post flight discussion to take place prior to each lesson as well as the required ground school lessons that must be completed prior to the flight lessons.

As an example, one poster suggested exchanging texts for a review of XC planning. A Part 141 syllabus requires both a pre and post flight briefing covering specific items. Each solo has specific objectives, completion standards, preflight and post flight discussion. In a 141 school as a CFI you are required to follow the syllabus and top quality flight schools monitor the CFIs to assure the syllabus is followed.

To call a flight school that maintains procedures that far exceed those you are willing to accept as a hobby CFI is not dishonest.
Click to expand...
You have made a habit of building straw men and fighting them. I have repeatedly agreed to all of your examples of deserving pay except for billing dual time when the instructor is not with the student. This last post is another example of that. You win again in an argument against someone that is not me. Congrats.
 
Are the folks saying, "My certificate, my rules, if you don't like it, go somewhere else," the same folks who ***** about CFIs who don't need the money undercutting "professional" CFIs by delivering good customer service for less dough?
 
I looked at my old/only log book. Double charging was never done to me.

Does this make me a bad pilot?

I hope to fly again soon, as soon as I get medical sorted... But I can wait, and jump through the FAA's hoops, 'cause there are revenue needing pilots in the same pickle, and they've probably been double charged for everything so they need the money.

I'm retired, and wanna spend my remaining years flying for fun.. but not as a light sport pilot, nor limited to ultralights.

I earned my ticket and deserve to exercise it's privileges and responsibilities for as long as I can.

And, when I go to get my flight review if the CFI tries to double dip, I'll tell him he's full of balderflop, and find me a reasonable, sane, honest one.
 
CharlieD3 said:
I looked at my old/only log book. Double charging was never done to me.

Does this make me a bad pilot?

I hope to fly again soon, as soon as I get medical sorted... But I can wait, and jump through the FAA's hoops, 'cause there are revenue needing pilots in the same pickle, and they've probably been double charged for everything so they need the money.

I'm retired, and wanna spend my remaining years flying for fun.. but not as a light sport pilot, nor limited to ultralights.

I earned my ticket and deserve to exercise it's privileges and responsibilities for as long as I can.

And, when I go to get my flight review if the CFI tries to double dip, I'll tell him he's full of balderflop, and find me a reasonable, sane, honest one.
Click to expand...
Flight review is all with the instructor, no solo work, so not a factor in the discussion. Frankly the scenario really only applies before a student passes the private checkride. No need for an instructor to be involved after that, unless he’s in the plane with you.
 
Lindberg said:
Are the folks saying, "My certificate, my rules, if you don't like it, go somewhere else," the same folks who ***** about CFIs who don't need the money undercutting "professional" CFIs by delivering good customer service for less dough?
Click to expand...

What I am saying is each flight school has the right to set their standards and charges, not the students. If you do not like it, go else where.

If you research military flight training programs, there is always a supervisor of flying on the ground. Even if only one dual instructional flight is occurring or one solo. That includes training provided by civilian contractors. It is a safety issue and US military flying programs are among the safest in the world. There is certainly nothing wrong with a flight school using a US military model.

Where I work, we do not charge dual during solo - my argument is the students don’t set any of the policies. We do have strict protocols in place for student solo. The primary CFI must be present or arrange another CFI to release the flight. A student just doesn’t show up at the airport, take the keys and go flying without permission from the primary CFI, receiving an instructor briefing and release of the flight. No CFI present to release the flight, you aren’t flying.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
What I am saying is each flight school has the right to set their standards and charges, not the students. If you do not like it, go else where.

If you research military flight training programs, there is always a supervisory of flying on the ground. Even if only one dual instructional flight is occurring. That includes training provided by civilian contractors. It is a safety issue.

Where I work, we do not charge dual during solo - my argument is the students don’t set any of the policies.
Click to expand...
That’s not what you’ve been arguing. But who cares. Students do set the policies they are willing to accept.
 
Salty said:
That’s not what you’ve been arguing. But who cares. Students do set the policies they are willing to accept.
Click to expand...

To be clear, I see zero problem with a flight school requiring the student to pay for a CFI to be present during solo. That doesn’t mean 6 students and 6 CFIs. If you ever decide to work at a flight school with 100 primary students including international students, your views might change.
 
Clip4 said:
To be clear, I see zero problem with a flight school requiring the student to pay for a CFI to be present during solo. That doesn’t mean 6 students and 6 CFIs. If you ever decide to work at a flight school with 100 primary students including international students, your views might change.
Click to expand...
Nope. Not paying for, nor working for, a school that charges for CFI time when the CFI is not with the student.
 
It’s the same beef I have with tipping. It distorts the facts. School wants to undercut another school, so they lower their rate, and then charge twice for solo time once the student is locked in, like the OP. It’s dishonest, plain and simple. You should bake that time into your rate, if you have to rather than surprising the student later with double dipping them. I suppose the school makes you sit there even if you have another student that you could fly with or do ground school right? ******** they do. They send you out and get paid 3x. It’s theft.
 
Salty said:
Nope. Not paying for, nor working for, a school that charges for CFI time when the CFI is not with the student.
Click to expand...
That’s fine, but it is more common than you think and the schools don’t hid the charges.

Here is one example.
http://www.star-helicopters.com/training/training-rates/

And this is an insurance warning.


https://www.soaringsafety.org/briefings/cfisuper.html

Standard language - “Student Pilot means any pilot holding a valid student pilot certificate issued by the FAA who is receiving flight instruction or operating the aircraft solo under the direct supervision and flight endorsement of a FAA Certified Flight Instructor.”
 
Last edited:
Granted it was a long, long time ago but I never heard of such a thing as a "supervised solo" What exactly is that supposed to mean anyway? Used to be that "solo" meant you were gonna fly the plane by yourself, nothing ambiguous about it.
 
For the first solo when Im just dropped off next to the runway and you do 3 or so in the pattern, I also normally get some good video and pics and cut a shirt, sure I’ll charge for how long it takes you to do three or so laps.

After that nope, I’m not there and frankly there isn’t much I could do if I was anyways, thus the solo part of solo. Now I will check weather quickly on my phone when you call me prior to solo (my only restriction I place on anyone) and chat for a second or two, but really it’s not enough time for me to feel the need to hit the meter.

But everyone is different, their biz their rules and all that jazz

I also don’t fly for a school, I might use their aircraft with a rental agreement, but once you get some time, CFIing is best done freelance, more money, less BS
 
Last edited:
There are some places that the FAA guys kind of expect you to supervise a few solos from what I’ve seen. A long time ago at 5C1 a student of mine actually went rogue and took off to another airport without authorization and wrecked a 172 at another airport - thankfully only scratching his thumb. It’s a long story, but you can bet I was a bit more of a mother hen with some of my students after that.
I also one time had a student that I eventually passed on to another instructor that I eventually determined had severe loss of knowledge between lessons. It was to the point that I could talk him through a subject, give him a written test that he would pass, and at a future lesson he wouldn’t remember any of it. On one of his solos I had to talk him down for landing. We had flown before and he did ok, but when he soloed he panicked and i could tell from watching him and it took three or four attempts on the radio for me to get him to successfully land it, and I wasn’t trying to help for the landing attempts before that.
People have to take into account the environment a school is operating in and an instructors past experiences. And no, I don’t mother hen everyone, but I do watch for things that might make it appropriate. In a cookie cutter, bug school environment with relatively rookie instructors I can see a Chief flight instructor who might have had some kind of student experience thinking it prudent for the first 2-4 solos to be supervised at some level.
 
Last edited:
Sounds like the school has a monopoly.

I guess I was fortunate, because my flight school went out of their way to save me money: they gave me tips on getting done in less hours, encouraged self-study, gave significant block discounts, and always erred billing to the students advantage.
As an example, on my cross-country solo, I landed at an away field, parked the plane, and went for about 45 minutes to go check weather for my return flight. But, I forgot to turn the main off, and the hobbs timer kept running. When I got back to the school I told the manager/head cfi what happened and without batting an eye he took 45 minutes off my bill.
 
kgruber said:
And you don't feel like that is being cheap?
Click to expand...
I have never been charged a penny for anything other than hobbs time. And no, I don't feel like I'm being cheap.
 
Salty said:
It’s the same beef I have with tipping. It distorts the facts. School wants to undercut another school, so they lower their rate, and then charge twice for solo time once the student is locked in, like the OP. It’s dishonest, plain and simple. You should bake that time into your rate, if you have to rather than surprising the student later with double dipping them. I suppose the school makes you sit there even if you have another student that you could fly with or do ground school right? ******** they do. They send you out and get paid 3x. It’s theft.
Click to expand...

You should go to a different school and quite complaining about how you would do it if you were in charge (protip: you aren’t). Five pages of whining over $20.

This really is getting to be worse than NextDoor or Facebook. Might be time to move on I can get information at the airport (or charge extra for instruction if I want) and not deal with the sadz, everytime I go to look for information.
 
Landing Fees said:
You should go to a different school and quite complaining about how you would do it if you were in charge (protip: you aren’t). Five pages of whining over $20.

This really is getting to be worse than NextDoor or Facebook. Might be time to move on I can get information at the airport (or charge extra for instruction if I want) and not deal with the sadz, everytime I go to look for information.
Click to expand...
Pro Tip: read the thread before responding. I’m not a student.
 
RyanShort1 said:
But this is why instruction is generally lower quality than it should be.
Click to expand...
My instructor has been teaching for close to 50 years and has never had a student fail a checkride. He's given 7,000+ hours of dual (that's when he stopped counting) and was in ads for Machado and King Schools. The quality of my instruction has been absolutely outstanding.
 
mryan75 said:
My instructor has been teaching for close to 50 years and has never had a student fail a checkride. He's given 7,000+ hours of dual (that's when he stopped counting) and was in ads for Machado and King Schools. The quality of my instruction has been absolutely outstanding.
Click to expand...
Specifics don’t falsify generalizations. And yeah, maybe I’m wrong, but not paying people what they are worth and for their time is disrespectful and it leads to many better pilots who ought to be the ones imparting knowledge often choosing other paths. I’ve flown with a lot of pilots as an instructor and in aerial photography and many of them don’t want to instruct because the pay is so low and the liability so high.
 
Landing Fees said:
protip: just cause you got a ppl don’t mean you ain’t a student anymore.
Click to expand...
Totally irrelevant to the conversation at hand. You said I should go to a different school. As I'm not a student, it's clear you aren't paying attention.
 
I see 5 pages of this stuff and am thankful that the CFI's in my area are extremely talented ... on top of that, all of them are in it for fun and not to get to the "majors" ... I nearly have to HURT them to pay them as they often say they had a blast doing the flight review and trying out whatever plane I own at the time.
 
TommyG said:
Hate to break it to you guys, but majority of CFIs I know charge dual for supervised solo. That is usually on the 1st or second solo completely on thier own..... Its also my butt on the line if something happens.
Click to expand...

If you think they need to be supervised on their 1st or 2nd solo after sign-off, maybe you shouldnt have signed them off.
 
Salty said:
I have 3 I’m very close with already and I’m training to be one as well. Thanks for your concern.
Click to expand...

Salty said:
Pro Tip: read the thread before responding. I’m not a student.
Click to expand...

I hate to break this to you, but you are training to be a CFI. At any flight school or under the training of an independent CFI, you are student. Everyone seeking an additional certificate or privilege is.

.
 
Last edited:
RyanShort1 said:
I don’t work for places that ask me to work for free... if I have to sit and watch by school rules, I except to be paid for my time.
Click to expand...


I don’t believe anyone is arguing the CFI work for free if required by the school. We just have a bunch of folks who think the wages should come from the school instead of the student. How that happens is a bit baffling.
 
Clip4 said:
I don’t believe anyone is arguing the CFI work for free if required by the school. We just have a bunch of folks who think the wages should come from the school instead of the student. How that happens is a bit baffling.
Click to expand...
Money trees. ;)
 
Clip4 said:
I hate to break this to you, but you are training to be a CFI. At any flight school or under the training of an independent CFI, you are student. Everyone seeking an additional certificate or privilege is.

.
Click to expand...
Omg, that is irrelevant. The context is a student that is being charged for solo. I sure as hell will drop my CFI if he tries to bill me for my solo time while working on my CFI rating. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
 
Salty said:
Omg, that is irrelevant. The context is a student that is being charged for solo. I sure as hell will drop my CFI if he tries to bill me for my solo time while working on my CFI rating. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound?
Click to expand...

You are the one who said they were not a student, you clearly are.
 
I’m all for finding ways to help students out financially, but we are probably talking 1-2% of the total cost of the initial certificate here that’s in dispute. If that’s a barrier to entry, you ought to be using Ibotta every trip to the grocery store, and driving a Prius er Pious, like me, too.
 
Last edited:
Clip4 said:
You are the one who said they were not a student, you clearly are.
Click to expand...
I’m not in college so I’m not a student. See? I can also twist the situation in an irrelevant context to show I’m right, just like you did. But it’s silly to do it. The context of the thread is a student that requires a sign off to solo. I am not that type of student.

1. I am not using a school for the training I am doing, so being told to switch schools is irrelevant.
2. When I was a student soloing and going to a school, I was not charged for dual when I didn’t receive dual. The school I went to wasn’t that stupid. They made sure one CFI was always on staff to sign off students needing to solo. The instructors took turns doing this duty on the rare instances there weren’t other students ready for dual instruction or ground school. It also Resulted in an instructor being on premise if a walk-in prospect or city tour walked in the door. Just plain good business.
3. When I was a student soloing and going to a school, I didn’t need someone to tell me to go to a different school if that would have happened, because I would have.

This stupid line of “you’re a student” only makes you look foolish and reduces the weight of anything else you say. Stick to we’ll reasoned arguments and leave the “proving I’m a student” alone. It’s childish.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Specifics don’t falsify generalizations. And yeah, maybe I’m wrong, but not paying people what they are worth and for their time is disrespectful and it leads to many better pilots who ought to be the ones imparting knowledge often choosing other paths. I’ve flown with a lot of pilots as an instructor and in aerial photography and many of them don’t want to instruct because the pay is so low and the liability so high.
Click to expand...
So your opinion is correct no matter what? Now there's an argument.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top