Changing CFI after checkride failure

Llk said:
Ugh. Some of the responses in this thread made me queasy - namely a decision by an instructor to accept a student or not based on the instructor preserving their pass rate.
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Yeah, I was waiting for a comment like this.

I asked whether it affected my pass rate or not. Looking back through my posts, I did not say it was going to decide the outcome. It is a side question, and in my opinion it's okay to ask questions to understand the entirety of a process.

There is nothing more offensive to me than a student struggling with an instructor controlling his or her progress, who ends up trying to find a better match by getting a second opinion, and while asked and advised to not disclosed, still compares notes with the first instructor thus embarrassing and discouraging the student. We’ve all seen the threads here on POA.
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I am not sure what exactly you're talking about here. I suspect you either didn't read the whole thread or didn't understand the situation. The applicant was all signed off for the checkride, didn't pass it, but unfortunately his CFI took a job out of the country. Why WOULDN'T I consult with his former instructor in this case? Not doing so would, to me, be considered a disservice to the applicant.
 
Salty said:
What’s on there that you wouldn’t know if you knew how to read an approach plate and enroute chart? Besides the English text. Lol

other than being overwhelmed, I’m not seeing how it would be that hard to figure out. I guess you wouldn’t know about transitions, but that’s a pretty logical concept. One of the few things that are straightforward in my opinion.
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Honestly, I'm not really able to evaluate whether or not being able to figure this out on the fly is reasonable. I was ATC before becoming an instrument pilot and so STARS were not new to me. What I do know is that people who have never seen one do not understand much of what goes into it. (Such as MEAs, Vertical Navigation Planning information, "hard altitudes", etc.)
 
RussR said:
Yeah, I was waiting for a comment like this.

I asked whether it affected my pass rate or not. Looking back through my posts, I did not say it was going to decide the outcome. It is a side question, and in my opinion it's okay to ask questions to understand the entirety of a process.



I am not sure what exactly you're talking about here. I suspect you either didn't read the whole thread or didn't understand the situation. The applicant was all signed off for the checkride, didn't pass it, but unfortunately his CFI took a job out of the country. Why WOULDN'T I consult with his former instructor in this case? Not doing so would, to me, be considered a disservice to the applicant.
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Russ,

You couldn’t have been much more polite or decent in your query and the comment was not aimed at you, by design.

Some of the advice you’re getting is rooted in some of the process, which creates what I consider to be dysfunctional behavior.

I’ve seen my share of private pilots, be they well heeled or otherwise determined, quit because their relationship with their instructor doesn’t work out well, and then the rumor mill/gossip begins as the student shops for a second instructor / tries to get a second opinion discretely only to be slammed precisely by the lack of it.

I recall being a member of a flying club of 50 as a very young pup and saw this repeatedly inside and outside the club. I get queasy remembering it.

That someone’s student check rode pass rate is even remotely part of the conversation in determining whether a student should be considered is flawed to me.

I recall attending a friend’s helicopter school. Nice competent lady. As usual, instructors are transitory. After an ASEL and IFR rating along with a lot of time, I step in the cockpit for the add on. The instructor, while nice, just refused to let go of the stick. It sucked. Here I am 10-12 hours in and not a hover in sight.

One day, the instructor is double booked thankfully, and another young man was put in.

Hover in 20 minutes. As it should have been. I resented wasting my money and time with the other instructor.

People buy from people they like, trust and enjoy. Teaching should be a service, and while some have the gift, some decidedly do not. People learn differently and as instructors we have to strive to accommodate that rather than simply using the gig to stuff hours in our logbook. But looking over our glasses and noses down at students who may be remedial and affect our pass rate? Whatever. Seriously. That may be the nature of the industry but it is wholly crapified, and as such I dare say I wish instructors who do it don’t get a lot of action.

Gold seal /Nafi that. If you suck as an instructor you probably suck at other things as well.

Good luck getting helpful, reasonable advice, OP- and regrets on thinking this was aimed at you.


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I would accept the student, but I would make it clear to him that he needs to meet all the standards in the ACS to receive your endorsement. That means he is back at the beginning of your syllabus for evaluation and the instruction to get him to standards.
 
Llk said:
Russ,

You couldn’t have been much more polite or decent in your query and the comment was not aimed at you, by design.

Some of the advice you’re getting is rooted in some of the process, which creates what I consider to be dysfunctional behavior.

I’ve seen my share of private pilots, be they well heeled or otherwise determined, quit because their relationship with their instructor doesn’t work out well, and then the rumor mill/gossip begins as the student shops for a second instructor / tries to get a second opinion discretely only to be slammed precisely by the lack of it.

I recall being a member of a flying club of 50 as a very young pup and saw this repeatedly inside and outside the club. I get queasy remembering it.

That someone’s student check rode pass rate is even remotely part of the conversation in determining whether a student should be considered is flawed to me.

I recall attending a friend’s helicopter school. Nice competent lady. As usual, instructors are transitory. After an ASEL and IFR rating along with a lot of time, I step in the cockpit for the add on. The instructor, while nice, just refused to let go of the stick. It sucked. Here I am 10-12 hours in and not a hover in sight.

One day, the instructor is double booked thankfully, and another young man was put in.

Hover in 20 minutes. As it should have been. I resented wasting my money and time with the other instructor.

People buy from people they like, trust and enjoy. Teaching should be a service, and while some have the gift, some decidedly do not. People learn differently and as instructors we have to strive to accommodate that rather than simply using the gig to stuff hours in our logbook. But looking over our glasses and noses down at students who may be remedial and affect our pass rate? Whatever. Seriously. That may be the nature of the industry but it is wholly crapified, and as such I dare say I wish instructors who do it don’t get a lot of action.

Gold seal /Nafi that. If you suck as an instructor you probably suck at other things as well.

Good luck getting helpful, reasonable advice, OP- and regrets on thinking this was aimed at you.


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Unfortunately this would probably run rampant in the industry without renewal based on pass rate/gold seal/whatever. It’s the nature of an industry built around moving on to something better.

as with many things, though, I think it’s preaching to the choir here...participation in boards like this seems to be an indication of not settling for minimum standards.
 
I got my ticket 2 years ago. I'm pretty sure we didn't talk about stars at the checkride, but I was ready for them.

While we covered stars in my training, I don't think I ever flew a star on my ifr training and we covered almost everything per my request. A problem with stars is they usually start pretty far out from the airport and can take quite a bit of time to execute in single piston.

I disagree that stars are pretty straight forward for someone who hasn't been trained in them. Sure you can look at it and kind of figure out what's up, but not to the degree that would satisfy a DPE, IMO.

The star pictured above is relatively complicated, there is a lot going on there. It took me a few minutes to go through it. Part of the problem is that you have 6 different transitions, then you have turbine instructions and piston instructions. I agree it's not easy to decipher, especially if the question was "tell me about this star?" rather than "tell me about this star from the xxx transition." You have to study it, then basically talk about different transitions.

There is a reason writing "No Stars" on a flight plan is an option and rejecting a star request from ATC is an option.

I look at the depicted star relative to the airplane I fly, a TAA G1000 (Perspective +), if requested to fly it I would probably take it. BUT if I were flying an aircraft without a gps I would probably tell them "no, vector me". That's a lot of work at a busy time for a single pilot without some sort of automation or an ifr gps.

Then you get into clearances to fly the star, you need to understand what ATC is asking you to do, you don't get that from the plate, you learn that from ground school and your instructor.

I've only been assigned a star once, it was on an ifr flight to Quebec City, the controller asked me if I could fly the star, I told him to stand by and pulled it up. It was straight forward so I took it. Non event.
 
PaulS said:
There is a reason writing "No Stars" on a flight plan is an option and rejecting a star request from ATC is an option.
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The reason is no longer valid. "NO SIDS/STARS" is a relic from when the SIDS and STARS were published in a completely separate book from the approach charts. Since many light GA aircraft never flew them, the pilot might not have bothered to buy the SID/STAR book. So "NO SIDS/STARS" meant "I do not have them on board, sorry about that", not "I don't know what they are, so please don't give me one". For the last few decades, they have been published in the same book as the approaches, and of course now they are all available on your tablet.

If you really don't want to fly the STAR, you risk having ATC read every step out you anyway, and you'll still fly the same route. Kind of like this guy with a SID out of TKI:

I've only been assigned a star once, it was on an ifr flight to Quebec City, the controller asked me if I could fly the star, I told him to stand by and pulled it up. It was straight forward so I took it. Non event.
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Depends on the part of the country you're in, and where you're flying. Even here in the Central U.S., the land of "Cleared direct to destination", I get a STAR every single time I fly down to the Dallas-Ft Worth area, regardless of whether I'm in a single, a twin or a jet.
 
RussR said:
I believe it was regarding STARS. Which, granted, is in the ACS, and is important knowledge, but I am 100% certain that my instrument instructor never once covered STARS (or SIDS, or ODPs) with me when I was in training, and they never came up on the checkride (which was years ago).
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I don't recall those coming up in my instrument training or checkride either (which occurred in 1992). Maybe it was covered in the video ground school and/or the written. :dunno:
 
I have typically been assigned the Point Reyes Arrival when flying spam cans to my home base at Palo Alto (PAO) from the northwest. I guess they assign it to keep us out of the way of the airliners heading for the larger SF Bay area airports. It always made me nervous to be that far out to sea in a piston single.
 
Palmpilot said:
I have typically been assigned the Point Reyes Arrival when flying spam cans to my home base at Palo Alto (PAO) from the northwest. I guess they assign it to keep us out of the way of the airliners heading for the larger SF Bay area airports. It always made me nervous to be that far out to sea in a piston single.
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The Point Reyes arrival is the only arrival procedure I ever been given in the 7 years since I got my instrument rating, and I’ve only been given it once. It was at night, and I agree, not a great feeling to be that far out over the water in a piston single. I’m based at SJC, and when coming from the North, they usually send me over the East Bay instead of the coast. Maybe you get the coast more often when going to PAO?

Now SIDs, on the other hand, are much more common for me. I get the SUNOL departure when going East or North pretty much every time, and when going South, I get the San Jose departure about half the time and the other half is radar vectors Salinas.
 
jimhorner said:
...Maybe you get the coast more often when going to PAO?...
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In my experience it depends on which direction I'm coming from, i.e., from west of San Pablo Bay vs. from east of it.

There's a whole bunch of Bay Area airports listed on that chart, including SJC.

00375POINTREYES.png
 
RussR said:
The reason is no longer valid. "NO SIDS/STARS" is a relic from when the SIDS and STARS were published in a completely separate book from the approach charts. Since many light GA aircraft never flew them, the pilot might not have bothered to buy the SID/STAR book. So "NO SIDS/STARS" meant "I do not have them on board, sorry about that", not "I don't know what they are, so please don't give me one". For the last few decades, they have been published in the same book as the approaches, and of course now they are all available on your tablet.

If you really don't want to fly the STAR, you risk having ATC read every step out you anyway, and you'll still fly the same route. Kind of like this guy with a SID out of TKI:



Depends on the part of the country you're in, and where you're flying. Even here in the Central U.S., the land of "Cleared direct to destination", I get a STAR every single time I fly down to the Dallas-Ft Worth area, regardless of whether I'm in a single, a twin or a jet.
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I used to be able to avoid a STAR into the Minneapolis area that more than doubled my flight distance by flying low and doubling my fuel consumption. ;)
 
RussR said:
The reason is no longer valid. "NO SIDS/STARS" is a relic from when the SIDS and STARS were published in a completely separate book from the approach charts. Since many light GA aircraft never flew them, the pilot might not have bothered to buy the SID/STAR book. So "NO SIDS/STARS" meant "I do not have them on board, sorry about that", not "I don't know what they are, so please don't give me one". For the last few decades, they have been published in the same book as the approaches, and of course now they are all available on your tablet.
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From the IPH chapter 3, page 16: (Red emphasis added)

STAR Procedures
Pilots may accept a STAR within a clearance or they may
file for one in their flight plan. As the aircraft nears its
destination airport, ATC may add a STAR procedure to
its original clearance. Keep in mind that ATC can assign
a STAR even if the aircrew has not requested one. Use of
a STAR requires pilot possession of at least the approved
chart. RNAV STARs must be retrievable by the procedure
name from the aircraft database and conform to charted
procedure. If an aircrew does not want to use a STAR, they
must specify “No STAR” in the remarks section of their flight
plan. Pilots may also refuse the STAR when it is given to
them verbally by ATC, but the system works better if the
aircrew advises ATC ahead of time.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Try refusing a STAR sometime and see what happens.
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What'll happen? Absolutely nothing, you'll get vectored, or you'll be told to fly to a way point, or you'll be given the STAR as a clearance, probably spend extra time flying, so what??? Better than trying to do something you aren't ready to do.

If you are not comfortable doing something flying IFR don't frigging do it. This internet bravado crap is not good for people learning this stuff.

If you are not prepared to fly a star, refuse it, say unable. IFR lesson 101, don't be forced into doing anything you aren't ready to do.
 
PaulS said:
What'll happen? Absolutely nothing, you'll get vectored, or you'll be told to fly to a way point, or you'll be given the STAR as a clearance, probably spend extra time flying, so what??? Better than trying to do something you aren't ready to do.

If you are not comfortable doing something flying IFR don't frigging do it. This internet bravado crap is not good for people learning this stuff.

If you are not prepared to fly a star, refuse it, say unable. IFR lesson 101, don't be forced into doing anything you aren't ready to do.
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I happen to agree 100%...like I said, refuse the SID or STAR. Ifyou’re not comfortable flying where basic IFR skills are required, don’t go there.

If you want to not accept a SID or STAR, that’s fine. Just understand that there are airports that you can’t operate into or out of.
 
RussR said:
I am a CFI. A Instrument Rating applicant contacted me after he failed the oral portion of his instrument checkride. His instructor is now on a several-month job in another country and cannot do the retraining/sign him off again/etc.

Has anybody dealt with this before? It seems a strange situation to put me in, as 1) I have never flown with the guy, 2) he was already signed off for the original checkride, 3) all he technically "needs" is retraining in the area(s) he failed during the oral.

Of course, I would want to fly with him at least once first, and do a suitable amount of ground instruction before I'm putting my name down as approving him to take the re-checkride. From the tone of his message to me, I do NOT think he has any problem with that. And as he hasn't completed any of the flight portion of the checkride, he's going to need to prove to me he can do everything. I have no idea of the quality of instruction he previously received.

Any experience with this? Anything to be aware of? Pitfalls?
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No real pitfalls. Take him/her on a flight. Observe his/her flying skills. Remediate him/her on the appropriate task(s). Put him through you own version of a mock checkride. If he/she does well, sign off. The part I don't understand is how he/she managed to fail the oral. Remember that, when you sign off your not just signing him off for another oral, but the entire checkride.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I happen to agree 100%...like I said, refuse the SID or STAR. Ifyou’re not comfortable flying where basic IFR skills are required, don’t go there.

If you want to not accept a SID or STAR, that’s fine. Just understand that there are airports that you can’t operate into or out of.
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I have no problem accepting stars in the airplane I'm flying now, were I flying a plane with one vor and was asked to fly the star pictured above, probably not, although chances of me flying an airplane like that IFR is slim to none.

I would never refuse a SID, nor would I take off IMC with out flying the ODP if published and not on a SID, that's just me.

I'm curious which airport would refuse you for refusing a STAR though.
 
PaulS said:
I have no problem accepting stars in the airplane I'm flying now, were I flying a plane with one vor and was asked to fly the star pictured above, probably not, although chances of me flying an airplane like that IFR is slim to none.
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I’m not sure how one VOR entered the discussion, but I probably wouldn’t either without DME as well. But I also probably wouldn’t be IFR in that area with a single VOR anyway.

I would never refuse a SID, nor would I take off IMC with out flying the ODP if published and not on a SID, that's just me.

I'm curious which airport would refuse you for refusing a STAR though.
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I don’t know about STARS (I’ve never refused a SID or STAR), but I used to know a guy who couldn’t get a clearance out of Aspen unless he accepted a SID. He was willing to fly the published ODP, which at the time (25 years ago) was separate from the SID, but they wouldn’t give him that.
 
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PaulS said:
If you are not comfortable doing something flying IFR don't frigging do it. This internet bravado crap is not good for people learning this stuff.

If you are not prepared to fly a star, refuse it, say unable. IFR lesson 101, don't be forced into doing anything you aren't ready to do.
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If you are not comfortable flying a STAR, you should seek additional training until you are comfortable. We're not talking personal minimums here, or flying through a thunderstorm. Being able to fly a STAR is an important part of being a competent instrument pilot.

Bringing up "what if you only had one VOR?" is a bit of a straw man argument, IMO.
 
RussR said:
If you are not comfortable flying a STAR, you should seek additional training until you are comfortable. We're not talking personal minimums here, or flying through a thunderstorm. Being able to fly a STAR is an important part of being a competent instrument pilot.

Bringing up "what if you only had one VOR?" is a bit of a straw man argument, IMO.
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Wait a minute, I never said I was uncomfortable flying a star, in fact I've said the opposite at least once here.

You said that refusing a star is a "relic" from the past, then go into an explanation about paper plates. I pointed out that the FAA indeed says that if you are not prepared to fly a STAR or you don't wish to fly a STAR, then you can refuse it. I provided a statement from an FAA publication, the IPH, backing up my statement. It's part of the Sporty's instrument course I took and I also found a similar statement in the AIM.

Someone flying IFR with a single vor is hardly a straw man in fact it's a perfect reason to refuse a STAR. I've known people who have flown airplanes like this, not for me, but they are still around.

You are teaching this stuff, rather than trying to double down, try getting it right. It's perfectly fine for you to tell a student that you recommend flying a STAR if they are assigned one, but telling them they have to fly a STAR is not correct and is doing them a disservice.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’m not sure how one VOR entered the discussion, but I probably wouldn’t either without DME as well. But I also probably wouldn’t be IFR in that area with a single VOR anyway.

I don’t know about STARS (I’ve never refused a SID or STAR), but I used to know a guy who couldn’t get a clearance out of Aspen unless he accepted a SID. He was willing to fly the published ODP, which at the time (25 years ago) was separate from the SID, but they wouldn’t give him that.
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I use one vor as an example of why someone might refuse a STAR, I don't ever see myself willing flying a single VOR airplane under IFR.

I don't recall anything about it being ok to refuse a SID in my training. In fact, I would never refuse a SID and I will always fly an ODP if I can't get out visually.
 
PaulS said:
Wait a minute, I never said I was uncomfortable flying a star, in fact I've said the opposite at least once here.

You said that refusing a star is a "relic" from the past, then go into an explanation about paper plates. I pointed out that the FAA indeed says that if you are not prepared to fly a STAR or you don't wish to fly a STAR, then you can refuse it. I provided a statement from an FAA publication, the IPH, backing up my statement. It's part of the Sporty's instrument course I took and I also found a similar statement in the AIM.

Someone flying IFR with a single vor is hardly a straw man in fact it's a perfect reason to refuse a STAR. I've known people who have flown airplanes like this, not for me, but they are still around.

You are teaching this stuff, rather than trying to double down, try getting it right. It's perfectly fine for you to tell a student that you recommend flying a STAR if they are assigned one, but telling them they have to fly a STAR is not correct and is doing them a disservice.
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I disagree. Pilots scared of basic procedures are indicative of very poor instruction.

pilots that are afraid of basic procedures and do nothing to fix the issue are apathetic and have an unsafe attitude.

It is not acceptable in my opinion.
 
PaulS said:
I don't recall anything about it being ok to refuse a SID in my training.
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Your training was deficient. ;)

from the IPH:
If you cannot comply with a SID, if you do not possess the charted SID procedure, or if you simply do not wish to use SIDs, include the statement “NO SIDs” in the remarks section of your flight plan.
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Almost-to-IR-checkride-student(learner?) here... Maybe I am missing something. What trouble do others have flying STARs?

To me, while some are a bit... busy?... they are pretty self-explanatory. Literally. Accompanying the graphical depiction is a nice write-up of what to do based on where you are coming from and where you want to go. Most of the STARS around here (DC/Dulles area) are for turbojets only and I have never flown one, but I don't see the hang-up. In fact, it seems like a lot of things in IFR-land - follow the procedures as charted and/or assigned and you will be ok.
 
PaulS said:
RussR said:
If you are not comfortable flying a STAR, you should seek additional training until you are comfortable. We're not talking personal minimums here, or flying through a thunderstorm. Being able to fly a STAR is an important part of being a competent instrument pilot.

Bringing up "what if you only had one VOR?" is a bit of a straw man argument, IMO.
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Wait a minute, I never said I was uncomfortable flying a star, in fact I've said the opposite at least once here.
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You're right. I meant the generic "you". I should have said "If someone is not comfortable..."

You said that refusing a star is a "relic" from the past, then go into an explanation about paper plates. I pointed out that the FAA indeed says that if you are not prepared to fly a STAR or you don't wish to fly a STAR, then you can refuse it. I provided a statement from an FAA publication, the IPH, backing up my statement. It's part of the Sporty's instrument course I took and I also found a similar statement in the AIM.
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It's still a relic from the past. There is typically no reasonable reason for someone to refuse a STAR or SID in 2020. (To me, "I don't feel like learning about them" is not a reasonable reason.) Let alone that, according to most ATCers that I've talked to, they don't even see the remarks block of the flight plan, or at best get a very few characters of it without going further into their system.

Someone flying IFR with a single vor is hardly a straw man in fact it's a perfect reason to refuse a STAR. I've known people who have flown airplanes like this, not for me, but they are still around.
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Yes, it would be a valid reason to ask ATC for alternate routing instead of a STAR like the one above into DFW. But single-VOR IFR is also such an edge case that it doesn't support or refute anything. I find it hard to believe that many single-VOR airplanes are flying IFR into DFW, or really any airport where STARS are used regularly. Additionally, while single-VOR airplanes may be flying IFR still, really, how big is that number in the US? Heck, the last time I taught IFR in a client's airplane without _GPS_ was something like 5 years ago (and that airplane does now have GPS).

You are teaching this stuff, rather than trying to double down, try getting it right. It's perfectly fine for you to tell a student that you recommend flying a STAR if they are assigned one, but telling them they have to fly a STAR is not correct and is doing them a disservice.
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Not training them how to fly a STAR to where they feel comfortable doing it is a disservice. If you can fly an approach, you can fly a STAR. Even the most complicated STAR happens in slow motion compared to an approach in the type of airplanes that we're talking about.
 
Deelee said:
Almost-to-IR-checkride-student(learner?) here... Maybe I am missing something. What trouble do others have flying STARs?

To me, while some are a bit... busy?... they are pretty self-explanatory. Literally. Accompanying the graphical depiction is a nice write-up of what to do based on where you are coming from and where you want to go. Most of the STARS around here (DC/Dulles area) are for turbojets only and I have never flown one, but I don't see the hang-up. In fact, it seems like a lot of things in IFR-land - follow the procedures as charted and/or assigned and you will be ok.
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That’s about the size of it. There are a few that get a little complex, especially if you’re given “descend via” (or “climb via” on a SID) with a revised clearance that may or may not supersede the climb or descend via instruction. But for the most part, it’s flying a known route and altitudes.
 
MauleSkinner said:
especially if you’re given “descend via” (or “climb via” on a SID)
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I get 'climb via' on the usual SID out of HEF most of the time. It usually goes - "Cleared to Kxxx via the Arsenal5 departure xxx transition then (direct or as filed). Climb via the SID except maintain 2k, expect xxx in 10 mins" I think they give the except maintain 2k to keep clear of the B shelf until they can climb me when no jets are landing at Dulles.... But it's not a big deal. Again, just fly what they tell you right? Fly the SID, but stay at the altitude they told me and wait for further instructions regarding altitude in 10 minutes. If for some crazy reason I lose all my radios, climb to the expected altitude in 10 (or MEA if it's higher) or find somewhere to land VFR.

(Ok, I'm practicing for my practical by typing this out, but it helps...)
 
I refused a STAR on my second solo IFR flight because it made no sense to me. They gave me vectors instead - that were likely more direct than the STAR if my “guess” about what they wanted was correct. This was into McKinney north of Dallas. It was a non event.
 
They gave me the gregs nine gregs transition. The way they worded it was odd. I assume they wanted me to fly direct gregs (my current clearance already) and then 085, but I wasn’t certain and it seemed silly to me at the time. In retrospect, I could have just confirmed my assumption with them, but they had no issue with “unable” and gave me a more direct heading anyway.
 
I had a GPS quit on me going into Dulles. Told ATC I couldn’t do the STAR. Non event. (And we FINALLY got rid of that KLN90B)
 
So far I have only been given one SID. I copied it down and read everything back to clearance. Then, I started putting it all into my GTN (I had no idea where it was taking me) and realized it was taking me about 15 miles in the opposite direction before I would turn back around and fly to my destination.. I just decided I would do as told and ask for something different once I was talking to departure. Well, I took off maintained runway heading and called departure. Before I had a chance to ask and as soon as they had radar contact, they vectored me around and sent me direct. Not sure why they gave me that SID because other than maintaining runway heading I didn't flying any of it.
 
AlphaMike said:
So far I have only been given one SID. I copied it down and read everything back to clearance. Then, I started putting it all into my GTN (I had no idea where it was taking me) and realized it was taking me about 15 miles in the opposite direction before I would turn back around and fly to my destination.. I just decided I would do as told and ask for something different once I was talking to departure. Well, I took off maintained runway heading and called departure. Before I had a chance to ask and as soon as they had radar contact, they vectored me around and sent me direct. Not sure why they gave me that SID because other than maintaining runway heading I didn't flying any of it.
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That’s what the Borg Mothership told them to do. ;)
 
RussR said:
Not training them how to fly a STAR to where they feel comfortable doing it is a disservice. If you can fly an approach, you can fly a STAR. Even the most complicated STAR happens in slow motion compared to an approach in the type of airplanes that we're talking about.
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Ok Russ, this has been a good thread, I hope you can help that person in your OP out. I absolutely agree with this statement above, no one is saying not to teach STARS.

But, for what ever the reason, pilots need to understand they can refuse a STAR ( and SID). There are a lot assumptions people are making in their arguments that only a deficient pilot would refuse a one, but ATC isn't perfect. We can start getting into hypotheticals as to situations where a STAR wouldn't work for someone, but it really doesn't matter, IFR students should be told they don't have to fly a STAR if they aren't comfortable doing it for whatever reason. You can tell them if they ever get uncomfortable with part of IFR flying they should seek you out and get comfortable.

Telling people they shouldn't refuse something because it shows they are deficient could prove fatal someday, especially on instruments.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
I disagree. Pilots scared of basic procedures are indicative of very poor instruction.

pilots that are afraid of basic procedures and do nothing to fix the issue are apathetic and have an unsafe attitude.

It is not acceptable in my opinion.
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Who said anything about being scared?
 
PaulS said:
Who said anything about being scared?
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my point, to be very direct, is that anyone so overwhelmed by a star that it’s safer not to do one was not prepared to be in the air. Either due to poor instruction or poor planning for the flight. If that happens then sure it’s best to refuse the star and be in control of the aircraft. It’s also imperative to not allow it to happen again. Unless you’re scared or lazy that is...

Now to answer your question: I said something about being scared. Lazy was in there too.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
my point, to be very direct, is that anyone so overwhelmed by a star that it’s safer not to do one was not prepared to be in the air. Either due to poor instruction or poor planning for the flight. If that happens then sure it’s best to refuse the star and be in control of the aircraft. It’s also imperative to not allow it to happen again. Unless you’re scared or lazy that is...

Now to answer your question: I said something about being scared. Lazy was in there too.
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I come back to the one vor example, perfectly legal to fly ifr , ridiculous to do the STAR pictured above in a busy environment. A couple of other posters have piped up about refusing stars or sids, maybe they'll comment as to whether they are scared, incompetent or lazy. I suspect it's none of the above, that they had good reason. But that's just me.
 
PaulS said:
I come back to the one vor example, perfectly legal to fly ifr , ridiculous to do the STAR pictured above in a busy environment. A couple of other posters have piped up about refusing stars or sids, maybe they'll comment as to whether they are scared, incompetent or lazy. I suspect it's none of the above, that they had good reason. But that's just me.
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The case I mentioned with the SID was the result of fairly widespread ignorance regarding the requirements for multi engine jet performance. Ignorance is never a good reason to do something with an airplane.
 
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