Challenger Crash in Aspen

Henning said:
Damn, ugly, what was the weather?
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(Copying from FF so it's not in normal format)
310@16G30 vis 7sm Broken 3,700, Overcast 4,800 density altitude 6,287

Even with the high approach minimums (2,600ft AGL and 3mi, IIRC) that should have gotten them in without issue. Looks like they went missed once.
 
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KASE 051853Z 31009G28KT 270V360 9SM HZ FEW035 BKN046 OVC050 M11/M20 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 33028/1851

KASE 051753Z 35013KT 6SM HZ BKN043 BKN050 M12/M17 A3008

KASE 051653Z 35011KT 6SM HZ SCT044 BKN060 M12/M17 A3008

That Flightaware track is remarkable. Third attempt?
 
Pilawt said:
KASE 051853Z 31009G28KT 270V360 9SM HZ FEW035 BKN046 OVC050 M11/M20 A3007 RMK AO2 PK WND 33028/1851

KASE 051753Z 35013KT 6SM HZ BKN043 BKN050 M12/M17 A3008

KASE 051653Z 35011KT 6SM HZ SCT044 BKN060 M12/M17 A3008

That Flightaware track is remarkable. Third attempt?
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Maybe. Anyone find the audio from Center yet if it's out there? I'd assume Denver Center but idk what sector.
 
r620-686d2766e842c571ef8c11ccc1253361.jpg
 
Z06_Mir said:
(Copying from FF so it's not in normal format)
310@16G30 vis 7sm Broken 3,700, Overcast 4,800 density altitude 6,287

Even with the high approach minimums (2,600ft AGL and 3mi, IIRC) that should have gotten them in without issue. Looks like they went missed once.
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Runway is 33/15 IIRC, I wonder why they ended up upside down...:dunno: Maybe ice on the runway and they got blown off at a high speed and the gear collapsed.
 
http://www.liveatc.net/listen.php

That didn't link the right stuff. Go to the KASE feed then you hear them getting told to contact tower at 17:00 or so. I only started listening at 16:00 so I may have missed the approach vectors. They don't contact tower until tower contacts them at 19:00. They sound a little overwhelmed in IFR.
 
They landed runway 15. Maybe the 15+kt tailwind had something to do with it....
 
Henning said:
:confused: That makes no sense in those winds, I wonder what the runway conditions were?
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That was the approach they were using I guess :dunno:
In the audio feed at 8 minutes an aircraft was asked for braking action and reported good. He also reported windsheer on a 3 mile final with a gain of 12 knots. I am bored today so I'm listening to all the audio. At around 9 minutes approach hands them off to tower for the first time. They get cleared at the first time to land at 10:00. Another aircraft reports a gain of 20kts windsheer. At around 11:00 115WF reports 30kts windsheer to the tail and goes missed.

They were taking off 33 but landing 15. Very odd. But I've never been to Aspen so maybe that's normal.
 
Z06_Mir said:
That was the approach they were using I guess :dunno:
In the audio feed at 8 minutes an aircraft was asked for braking action and reported good. He also reported windsheer on a 3 mile final with a gain of 12 knots. I am bored today so I'm listening to all the audio. At around 9 minutes approach hands them off to tower for the first time. They get cleared at the first time to land at 10:00. Another aircraft reports a gain of 20kts windsheer. At around 11:00 115WF reports 30kts windsheer to the tail and goes missed.

They were taking off 33 but landing 15. Very odd. But I've never been to Aspen so maybe that's normal.
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Is there any sensible reason they wouldn't have switched to 33?
 
Henning said:
Is there any sensible reason they wouldn't have switched to 33?
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Approach sequences? Terrain? I dunno, Henning. My book of 320 hours and zero Aspen flights doesn't exactly scream expert. They were using the LOC/DME which brings you straight in to 15, but it's a circling only approach. One thing I've always wanted to do is fly into Aspen in a simulator with some crap weather and see how well it worked or didnt work.
 
I just can't imagine taking those kinds of quartering tail winds...:nonod:
 
Z06_Mir said:
That was the approach they were using I guess :dunno:
In the audio feed at 8 minutes an aircraft was asked for braking action and reported good. He also reported windsheer on a 3 mile final with a gain of 12 knots. I am bored today so I'm listening to all the audio. At around 9 minutes approach hands them off to tower for the first time. They get cleared at the first time to land at 10:00. Another aircraft reports a gain of 20kts windsheer. At around 11:00 115WF reports 30kts windsheer to the tail and goes missed.

They were taking off 33 but landing 15. Very odd. But I've never been to Aspen so maybe that's normal.
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Aspen lands 15, depart 33. Go take a look at the approach chart. There's a 14k mountain at the end of 15.
 
murphey said:
Circle to land not allowed at Aspen tfor the jets.
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Well, that rule worked out well, I suspect it will go the way of the noise abatement climb at John Wayne after this little crash. But maybe not, doesn't appear it was anyone famous that got killed.
 
Henning said:
Well, that rule worked out well, I suspect it will go the way of the noise abatement climb at John Wayne after this little crash. But maybe not, doesn't appear it was anyone famous that got killed.
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It's not a rule someone pulled out of their asses, it's due to there not being enough terrain clearance. I've been to aspen enough that it's not a place to be taken lightly.
 
Henning said:
Well, that rule worked out well, I suspect it will go the way of the noise abatement climb at John Wayne after this little crash. But maybe not, doesn't appear it was anyone famous that got killed.
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If the rule is due terrain, I don't see it changing unless the mountains move. If it's noise abatement, that's the perfect time to break out 14 CFR 91.3(a).

What I don't understand is, if the crew though circling to 33 was not an option, why not divert to Eagle or even Denver after finding 30 knot tailwinds? Even if no alternate was required (seems doubtful), you can get pretty far in 45 minutes in a jet.
 
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kgruber said:
There is plenty of room to turn around and land 33 if there was a 3000 ft ceiling. I've done it in person and at FlightSafety many times. Aspen is brought up ad nauseam at SimuFlight and FlightSafety.
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In what type of aircraft?
 
Henning said:
There's plenty of room.
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Circle to land with any obstructions is a spectacular way to F it away and die in a jet. Personally if I had gone missed 3 times and my options were land with a 30 knot tailwind, circle to land IVO mountainous terrain, or divert...I'd go somewhere else.

Ain't worth dyin' fer...
 
I believe a lot of the operators going in/out of Aspen have op specs that limit the tailwind component to something like 10 knots. Maybe someone can chime in on this.
 
Most transport category aircraft have a ten knot tailwind limit. The PC-12, hawker and citation do for sure, and I think the challenger does to.
 
Groundpounder said:
Most transport category aircraft have a ten knot tailwind limit. The PC-12, hawker and citation do for sure, and I think the challenger does to.
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There is a big discussion about this as it relates to the crash on another forum right now. Apparently most jets are limited by their AFMs to a 10 kt TW restriction. Seems you don't start seeing limits like 15 until you get into the Boeings and 'Buses.
 
Tower was issuing LLWS alerts, with 10-20 speed changes, and the official weather had gusts exceeding 20. Ugly.
 
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