Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
The instructor was the PIC and is responsible for the safe operation of the flight.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Over 3000
Try reading the very next sentence after what you quoted. I specifically said “unless he was knowingly negligent”.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Isn’t the legal term gross negligence?
Lindberg
Final Approach
What does that mean?
What sort of outcome are you looking for?
Daleandee
Final Approach
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Dale Andee
I kinda thought the same thing and that's why I sent the link that I did in my first post that basically said if there was a fault he would need proof of a breach of duty, intent, or negligence. That might be a tough row to hoe ...
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Your morals are the CFI shouldn’t be sued. My morals are the CFI should pay at least 1/2 the damage, preferably all the damage, without being sued.
This CFI is damn lucky the owner didn’t get injured and isn’t suing for a personal injury.
Tbd CFI is an idiot for not assuring the owner and the CFI were covered by insurance before he provided instruction. It would have cost him nothing to be added to the owners policy.
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Lindberg
Final Approach
Which post are you responding to? I didn't see where anyone said that.
Look again
If someone actually said that, it's not true. What is true is that, during an instructional flight, a CFI giving instruction will be treated as having the same responsibility as the PIC, whether they are PIC or not.
If you are thinking that means (a) some CFI who is a passenger but not giving instruction is automatically responsible for anything that happens or (b) the responsibility of a CFI who is giving instruction is strict or absolute, either the post you read was wrong or you misunderstood it.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Look again. No one said any damages.
RyanShort1
Final Approach
Having been in an "accident" - with a student, there's definitely room for nuance. It's not always assumed that the CFI is at fault, although there is responsibility.
For instance, if you could document that you taught the lesson properly, the student responded properly, for a person to reasonably believe that adequate communication had taken place, and still, somehow, for some reason, a student decided in the spur of the moment to shove the stick so far forward on a wheel landing, that you clipped the tip of the propeller? That actually happened to me once in a Cub, and it was super, duper frustrating. I *was* even guarding the stick, but a shoved forward motion can be difficult to arrest, especially if you are "hovering" the stick, and not actually grasping it with a tensed-up muscle, so that the student can "feel" the controls.
A lot depends on who ends up being the arbiter of the situation.
Now my biggest question is if Clip4 would fly with me for a flight review...
For instance, if you could document that you taught the lesson properly, the student responded properly, for a person to reasonably believe that adequate communication had taken place, and still, somehow, for some reason, a student decided in the spur of the moment to shove the stick so far forward on a wheel landing, that you clipped the tip of the propeller? That actually happened to me once in a Cub, and it was super, duper frustrating. I *was* even guarding the stick, but a shoved forward motion can be difficult to arrest, especially if you are "hovering" the stick, and not actually grasping it with a tensed-up muscle, so that the student can "feel" the controls.
A lot depends on who ends up being the arbiter of the situation.
Now my biggest question is if Clip4 would fly with me for a flight review...
It looks like you said it
Lindberg
Final Approach
H
Headache
Guest
Well I can see how y’all got that impression that I am looking for grounds to sue but I didn’t intend to come across that way at all.I agree that not having insurance and suing would be wrong.I am a Christian and am completely opposed to suing,I will never sue anyone for anything,I believe it’s wrong trying to take advantage of other people.Believe whatever you want but I am not going to try to sue no matter what,I’m just a young pilot trying to figure out how to feel about it
So the point of this thread is…?
100% this was required to be reported…
How what works? You broke it, you pay for it. You’re absolutely trying to figure out if there’s a way to go after the CFI and the fact that you didn’t report the accident is potentially standing in your way. You’re trying to figure out how to go after the CFI. Sorry, but that’s exactly what you’re doing.
Lindberg
Final Approach
If you did have insurance, your policy might have paid you and then gone after the CFI if they believed he was liable, unless subrogation was waived. So if it's against your faith to ever sue anyone for anything, then you might not want to get insurance.
2-Bit Speed
Pattern Altitude
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2-Bit Speed
Lend money without expecting repayment. You flew without insurance. If the CFI offers anything, GREAT!! If not, take your lumps and move on.
P.S. FIFY
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I would assume “high wing identifying as a low wing” means the plane inverted and caused substantial damage to the plane, but the accident likely happened at one of those clown show airports and they sweep up the pieces and hid everything from view.
H
Headache
Guest
Ok lol.I don’t know how to make myself any clearer as to what I was wanting to understand so I won’t say any more.I really opened a can of worms on this one but shoulda known I guess.If I ever get in a situation where I don’t know my own mind I’ll get @mryan75 to tell me what I’m thinking.Haha.
My aviation mentors gave me the impression that it was not required for reporting but I’ll study the regs tonight and see what I can figure out.If needed I will report it,im not trying to be dishonest or hide anything,I’m actually trying harder to keep it low for my instructors sake
Moral of the story is,as a wise man earlier in this thread said,”If you can’t afford to break it,leave it in the hangar otherwise suck it up”.
Signing of for now,I have a headache
My aviation mentors gave me the impression that it was not required for reporting but I’ll study the regs tonight and see what I can figure out.If needed I will report it,im not trying to be dishonest or hide anything,I’m actually trying harder to keep it low for my instructors sake
Moral of the story is,as a wise man earlier in this thread said,”If you can’t afford to break it,leave it in the hangar otherwise suck it up”.
Signing of for now,I have a headache
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Actually I didn’t say any damage. If there is a mechanical failure creating an emergency, the plane collides with wildlife, another vehicle collides with the plane, ect. is not the CFis responsibility.
Lindberg
Final Approach
Yeah, “haha”. You’ve said 15 times that you’re not looking to go after your CFI, which of course means that is exactly what you’re looking to do. But let me ask you this: you’ve said repeatedly you’re looking for “how to go about this”. How to go about what? If you want to say hey, he was PIC and I got screwed here, fine. That would mean you are looking to go after your CFI. So why not just say that?
The more you say you’re not looking to go after him, the more it’s clear you are. If you’re not, what are you asking?
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
I think you should find a new group of mentors. They are either terribly uneducated about the regs or giving you bad information to protect their buddy. Maybe both.
Accident reporting is #2 on the list of aeronautical knowledge topic you were supposed to learn before you got your private certificate.
§ 61.105 Aeronautical knowledge.
(a) General. A person who is applying for a private pilot certificate must receive and log ground training from an authorized instructor or complete a home-study course on the aeronautical knowledge areas of paragraph (b) of this section that apply to the aircraft category and class rating sought.
(b) Aeronautical knowledge areas.
(1) Applicable Federal Aviation Regulations of this chapter that relate to private pilot privileges, limitations, and flight operations;
(2) Accident reporting requirements of the National Transportation Safety Board;
830.5 Immediate notification.
The operator of any civil aircraft, or any public aircraft not operated by the Armed Forces or an intelligence agency of the United States, or any foreign aircraft shall immediately, and by the most expeditious means available, notify the nearest National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) office,[1] when:
(a) An aircraft accident or any of the following listed serious incidents occur:
Well , what would happen if you flew into and balled up someone elses property without having insurance ? I could care less about losing the plane , its having the other party come after me
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
..and keeps looking for a reason to justify his lack of insurance.....(sigh). You were sole manip of the controls and he was PIC. Look the both of you to be subrogated by the insurance co for the owner.
francisco collazos
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ciscovet
rumor has it this is the Boeing defense
brcase
En-Route
The short answer is as the Operator of the aircraft you are responsible for insuring you are happy with insurance situation under any circumstance that might occur.
As an instructor I frequently ask exactly that because my insurance (I do have some) and resources are not likely to cover everything in the event of an incident/accident.
To the OP, as already said, you opted to fly without adequate insurance, indicating you were willing to take a loss if something happened. Well, something happened
2nd you did not discuss or validate the instructors insurance status. Without doing so you can pretty much assume the following.
1. He is a flight instructor he likely doesn't have much in the way of assets.
2. As a result if he does have insurance it is likely mostly only liability insurance.
3. IF he does have insurance, you are going to be responsible to prove or sue to prove the instructor was liable in the accident. This generally has one of two outcomes.
a. You convince the insurance company he is liable and could be sued for the damages. So they pay you up to the limits of the policy. You have the option of taking what the offer and agree to not sue the insured
b. You sue and the insurance company will use their attorneys and the money they would have paid you to defend the insured. You have to pay your attorney's, Generally the only ones that really win in the case are the attorney's. You might get 60% of what they settle on, if you win. They can try to go for the the flight instructors Assets beyond what the insurance company pays, but he is a flight instructor and doesn't likely have any assets. Occasionally they might try to go after future income or assets, but a good attorney will probably recommend agaist this, It is unlikely you will get any/much money from it, and the only reason to do so is to punish the flight instructor.
I occasionally see the guy around here that was sued for future income after an accident when he was a teenager (40+ years ago) he is usually holding up the sign that says "will work for food." Is a sad story as it probably wasn't really his fault, but he was the only one they could convince a jury might have been at fault, and the injured feels like someone needs to pay, even if they get very little money out it. I see the injured individual around once in while also.
This is just my understanding/opinion and different state/local laws may change it, So take is as just someone on the internet said... Do you own homework.
Brian
Lindberg
Final Approach
I don't understand why my choosing to self-insure, would mean that I automatically accept the liability for somebody else's negligence.
The PIC discussion seems only relevant if the FAA want's to give somebody a 709 ride which seems quite possible.
The FAA is not much of a factor in who pays for repairs. Perhaps it's a data point in a civil action, but I doubt it. Sometimes being an owner is expensive. This is one of those times.
The FAA is not much of a factor in who pays for repairs. Perhaps it's a data point in a civil action, but I doubt it. Sometimes being an owner is expensive. This is one of those times.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
Because that’s what the uninsured, underinsured and anti lawsuit people on this site want you to believe.It’s nonsense.
You are unlikely to find a flight school that allows their employees to provide instruction in aircraft not owned by the flight school if they don’t have insurance to cover the accident. Schools understand the liability and an independent CFI has the same liability.
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Gilbert Buettner
Line Up and Wait
If it is a Flight Review, we take the risk. If it is going to be ongoing training, we require the school to be named as additional insured with a waiver of subrogation. It has never been a problem with insurance companies - apparently they are pleased when their customers get additional flight instruction.
Clip4
Touchdown! Greaser!
You really need to read what the insurance is extending you and assess your risk. It’s why many CFI policies have insurance with additional coverage for negligent instruction.
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