CFI - Power Off 180s - Cherokee 140

CC268

CC268

Final Approach
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CC268
Starting to fly my Cherokee 140 from the right seat to prepare for the CFI checkride. I did my Commercial in the 172, which glides forever when doing the Power Off 180 - my Cherokee is quite the opposite. My first few times I was way short - I kept the pattern tighter and kept the downwind shorter which helped. 10 degrees of flaps at the key position on base.

Do you guys have any tips for the Power Off 180 in a Cherokee? I will obviously go through this when I get with an instructor, but wanted to get some preliminary feedback in the meantime.

Thanks.
 
You answered your own question - just a tighter downwind and get on with the turn. This is easily done in a Pitts. By comparison, the Cherokee is like going back to the glide of the 172.
 
Interestingly, the 172 and PA28 series have very similar glide ratios.. I want to say that the PA28 might actually be better.. and in my experience with the same engine (PA28-181 and C172/180) the Piper is faster..

However, when trying to get down fast the 172 sort of just plateaus around -800/-1100 fpm.. (at least in my experience) beyond that it really feels like you are forcing things.. the Piper though, it loves to come down fast

Like James said above, this is where slipping is a huge help. The piper is a very easy and manageable plane to slip.. unlike the 172

If you are stuck high then slip it. In fact, one of my CFIs taught a very sailplane-esq power off 180 technique that depended heavily on the slip. If for some reason you come in low you are screwed.. but unless you royally screwed up then coming in a bit high is okay and then just slipping it hard

PS - with the manual flaps I always felt like I was using the handbrake when using the flaps to slow down, esp in a slip
 
Tantalum said:
Interestingly, the 172 and PA28 series have very similar glide ratios.. I want to say that the PA28 might actually be better.. and in my experience with the same engine (PA28-181 and C172/180) the Piper is faster..

However, when trying to get down fast the 172 sort of just plateaus around -800/-1100 fpm.. (at least in my experience) beyond that it really feels like you are forcing things.. the Piper though, it loves to come down fast

Like James said above, this is where slipping is a huge help. The piper is a very easy and manageable plane to slip.. unlike the 172

If you are stuck high then slip it. In fact, one of my CFIs taught a very sailplane-esq power off 180 technique that depended heavily on the slip. If for some reason you come in low you are screwed.. but unless you royally screwed up then coming in a bit high is okay and then just slipping it hard

PS - with the manual flaps I always felt like I was using the handbrake when using the flaps to slow down, esp in a slip
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I utilized the slip a lot in the 172 for the Power Off 180. I think I just need to get out there and practice some more in the Cherokee and find the technique like I did in the 172. Probably just going to be a short downwind and tighter pattern + slip.
 
kgruber said:
Keep it tight, aim for mid-field. It is better to go off the end slow than crash short.
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Power Off 180 you have to hit your spot with 200 feet - I always go for the aiming point markers.
 
Shoot right for the runway and then square off more and slip if you have too much. Actually think about if the engine were out. Number one is make the runway, once you’ve assured that, then bleed off altitude with the tools you have in that plane.
 
CC268 said:
Power Off 180 you have to hit your spot with 200 feet - I always go for the aiming point markers.
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Well kinda, from your declared target, you have +200’ and -0’
 
You've done the maneuver as a commercial pilot, so you know what it takes. Your assignment as an aspiring CFI is to teach it to yourself in the right seat of your Cherokee. It's your Cherokee, so you are way ahead of the game.

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic or snarky. You are eventually going to be teaching some guy or gal who has no idea or experience whatsoever how to fly. Too many CFIs forget what it's like to be that student pilot. This is your opportunity to be that student pilot again and develop a teaching methodology.

FWIW, I approach this one backwards. I want to see what the airplane does in relatively calm winds if I pull power abeam the touchdown point, nail best glide, and ride it in. I'm not trying to hit the spot at that point but am very interested in the descent path it takes and where it ends up on the runway. Now I know how it performs. I have a baseline for this airplane and can teak it to get what I want.
 
midlifeflyer said:
You've done the maneuver as a commercial pilot, so you know what it takes. Your assignment as an aspiring CFI is to teach it to yourself in the right seat of your Cherokee. It's your Cherokee, so you are way ahead of the game.

I'm really not trying to be sarcastic or snarky. You are eventually going to be teaching some guy or gal who has no idea or experience whatsoever how to fly. Too many CFIs forget what it's like to be that student pilot. This is your opportunity to be that student pilot again and develop a teaching methodology.

FWIW, I approach this one backwards. I want to see what the airplane does in relatively calm winds if I pull power abeam the touchdown point, nail best glide, and ride it in. I'm not trying to hit the spot at that point but am very interested in the descent path it takes and where it ends up on the runway. Now I know how it performs. I have a baseline for this airplane and can teak it to get what I want.
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Yea I understand. I knew asking the question on here might not come off good lol. I've only done 3 power off 180s from the right seat so far, so it's early in the game. I will try the approach you suggested. Thanks.
 
CC268 said:
Yea I understand. I knew asking the question on here might not come off good lol. I've only done 3 power off 180s from the right seat so far, so it's early in the game. I will try the approach you suggested. Thanks.
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It was a good question.

My approach is not original. I was getting checked out in a Tiger while on vacation. I had been a CFI for about a year. Once at altitude, the instructor said, "You're a CFI. Check yourself out." I laughed, but it stuck with me.
 
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If there is no wind, reduce power opposite the threshold, trim to slow to L/Dmax without losing altitude, count 3 seconds and turn.
 
Clip4 said:
If there is no wind, reduce power opposite the threshold, trim to slow to L/Dmax without losing altitude, count 3 seconds and turn.
Click to expand...

Thanks. This sounds about spot on from what I was seeing yesterday. Reduce power, immediately pitch for best glide...I'll try that 3 seconds (adjust as needed for wind)...I bet that will work quite well.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, since it's a Cherokee, toss a brick out the window and follow it down :D
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Tomorrow's a nice day, not much wind. Think I'll try it...just happen to have a few extra bricks from new paving in the backyard.
 
Tantalum said:
... The piper is a very easy and manageable plane to slip.. unlike the 172...
Click to expand...
That's a joke, right? My Skyhawk came down like an elevator when I flew sideways, and popped out of it feeling like a sailplane (relatively speaking.) Very easy to control forward and sideslips.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Actually, since it's a Cherokee, toss a brick out the window and follow it down :D
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I've always hated this joke. I find that it's really insensitive and unfair. How would you feel if you were a brickmaker and someone compared the glide ratio of your handcrafted product with that of a Piper Cherokee? :ihih:

Seriously, though, the "safe glide mode" of the Piper Hershey bar wing (which glides like a safe except with less ground effect) should make nailing a landing spot easy. If you can reach your intended landing spot, you can get the plane on the ground within 200 feet after it. My biggest challenge when I finally got to fly a 172 (almost all my tricycle hours were in PA-28's with Hershey bar wings) was getting it to stop flying, which has never once been a problem in the PA-28's that I've flown.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
That's a joke, right? My Skyhawk came down like an elevator when I flew sideways, and popped out of it feeling like a sailplane (relatively speaking.) Very easy to control forward and sideslips.
Click to expand...

Not really a joke. A full deflection slip in a 172 is very ineffective compared to airplanes that ACTUALLY slip well. They are very controllable but just don't change the glide path or descent rate nearly as much as some other airplanes. If you haven't flown other airplanes that slip WAY better, you may not understand the difference.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Very easy to control forward and sideslips.
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it's not that it's hard to control, but the Piper feels like you're more directly in charge of it. In the Cessnas I always felt like I was bending metal or asking it to do something it didn't really want to do
 
Tantalum said:
Interestingly, the 172 and PA28 series have very similar glide ratios.. I want to say that the PA28 might actually be better.. and in my experience with the same engine (PA28-181 and C172/180) the Piper is faster..
Click to expand...

Depends on the PA28's wing. The 181 has the tapered wing that glides for days. A Cherokee 140 Hershey bar wing that drops like a stone.

OP, are you making your base turn to final one continuous turn or trying to square it up? I'd recommend as soon as the power is off start turning and keep turning. You can vary the bank and rate of turn to conserve or expend energy as necessary. Nice thing about the Cherokee is your can slip with full flaps and really bring it down in a big hurry. Also experiment with using different airspeeds. Faster than best glide will increase your altitude loss, best glide will minimize as much as possible. I've really learned to play with this doing power-off 180s in my Citabria, which is how I do every approach in it.
 
CC268 said:
Starting to fly my Cherokee 140 from the right seat to prepare for the CFI checkride. I did my Commercial in the 172, which glides forever when doing the Power Off 180 - my Cherokee is quite the opposite. My first few times I was way short - I kept the pattern tighter and kept the downwind shorter which helped. 10 degrees of flaps at the key position on base.

Do you guys have any tips for the Power Off 180 in a Cherokee? I will obviously go through this when I get with an instructor, but wanted to get some preliminary feedback in the meantime.

Thanks.
Click to expand...
Be judicious with your flaps. The 140 will head to ground as soon as you retard the throttle. Once the power is out, it's all energy management to the landing spot. After 4-5 practices...you should have it pretty much down. If you're going to be short minimize the flaps and use best glide. Long?..chop the throttle, drop the flaps and go for the full stall landing.
 
When was the 180 power off landing added to the Commercial Pilot Certificate flight test? I don't remember doing that maneuver when I took my eval in 1979. Was it called a power off spot landing back then?
 
midwestpa24 said:
Depends on the PA28's wing. The 181 has the tapered wing that glides for days. A Cherokee 140 Hershey bar wing that drops like a stone.

OP, are you making your base turn to final one continuous turn or trying to square it up? I'd recommend as soon as the power is off start turning and keep turning. You can vary the bank and rate of turn to conserve or expend energy as necessary. Nice thing about the Cherokee is your can slip with full flaps and really bring it down in a big hurry. Also experiment with using different airspeeds. Faster than best glide will increase your altitude loss, best glide will minimize as much as possible. I've really learned to play with this doing power-off 180s in my Citabria, which is how I do every approach in it.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback!
 
SbestCFII said:
Be judicious with your flaps. The 140 will head to ground as soon as you retard the throttle. Once the power is out, it's all energy management to the landing spot. After 4-5 practices...you should have it pretty much down. If you're going to be short minimize the flaps and use best glide. Long?..chop the throttle, drop the flaps and go for the full stall landing.
Click to expand...

You recommend 10 degrees on the base leg or just leave them out until I know I need them?
 
CC268 said:
You recommend 10 degrees on the base leg or just leave them out until I know I need them?
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Leave them retracted until you know extending them won't leave you short. My personal choice is to leave flaps alone until at least base (even if modified). From student pilot on, I've found base leg is where most of us can truly visualize both our vertical and horizontal path to the runway and make adjustments.
 
midlifeflyer said:
Leave them retracted until you know extending them won't leave you short. My personal choice is to leave flaps alone until at least base (even if modified). From student pilot on, I've found base leg is where most of us can truly visualize both our vertical and horizontal path to the runway and make adjustments.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback
 
IK04 said:
When was the 180 power off landing added to the Commercial Pilot Certificate flight test? I don't remember doing that maneuver when I took my eval in 1979. Was it called a power off spot landing back then?
Click to expand...
It has appeared and disappeared a few times. It was not there when I took my commercial ride in 1995, but reappeared in the 2002 PTS. I don't know about earlier than that but have heard it was there at some point prior to 1991.
 
IK04 said:
When was the 180 power off landing added to the Commercial Pilot Certificate flight test? I don't remember doing that maneuver when I took my eval in 1979. Was it called a power off spot landing back then?
Click to expand...
It might’ve been called that...it was in the PTS when I got my commercial in ‘86 or ‘87, but they had recently added some “older” maneuvers back into the PTS. there was some stuff that my instructor and I had to figure out together, because he’d never seen or done them.
 
For the Cherokee 180 (Hershey bar wing) Best Glide is probably 80mph, but you might find 90mph works better for the Power off 180, while it glides best at 80mph, it may leave you bit low on energy during the round out and flair for the power off approach. The 90mph approach speed will give you just a bit of float so you can control the touch doing point a bit better. I agree Flaps up until you know you need them.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Note, this does not mean you are touch down at 80 or 90 mph, You should still touch down nose up on the main wheels, which will be close to as slow as you can touch for a given configuration of the airplane. It just lets you fly the airplane near the runway instead of just flying (falling) into the runway.
 
brcase said:
For the Cherokee 180 (Hershey bar wing) Best Glide is probably 80mph, but you might find 90mph works better for the Power off 180, while it glides best at 80mph, it may leave you bit low on energy during the round out and flair for the power off approach. The 90mph approach speed will give you just a bit of float so you can control the touch doing point a bit better. I agree Flaps up until you know you need them.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Best glide is 85 for my 140...so yea sounds about right
 
Clip4 said:
If there is no wind, reduce power opposite the threshold, trim to slow to L/Dmax without losing altitude, count 3 seconds and turn.
Click to expand...

Flew with a Colorado CFI on a fun flight to tune up my mountain flying and short field. As a note, this wasn’t to simulate an engine out, but rather clear obstacles and make a spot landing. His recommendation was 5 seconds, in a 172. I felt that left me a little high so if you fly a specific aircraft frequently I think you just have to experiment a bit.

If it’s an engine out practice I like the above response to aim for midfield. Three seconds would be more than enough. It’s all aircraft dependent though so practice in the aircraft you fly.
 
I fly a 1/2 mile pattern, 1000 agl. In my Cherokee 140, I pull power abeam the numbers and pitch for 80 mph. When I hit 80, I make a U turn to final, depending on altitude, I induce drag as needed. Mabe my 140 doesn't sink like it's supposed to. I usually end up high, and have to slip aggressively with full flaps, to make my TD point. (thinking about adding spoilers)
 
Yes, save your flaps for when they are needed. If you feel you are too low, slowly add a notch or two. you will notice a "balloon" effect.
Not as prominent as in the 172, but it's there.
 
bluerooster said:
I fly a 1/2 mile pattern, 1000 agl. In my Cherokee 140, I pull power abeam the numbers and pitch for 80 mph. When I hit 80, I make a U turn to final, depending on altitude, I induce drag as needed. Mabe my 140 doesn't sink like it's supposed to. I usually end up high, and have to slip aggressively with full flaps, to make my TD point. (thinking about adding spoilers)
Click to expand...
Why not just square up your pattern instead of the U turn? Are you pulling carb heat in?
 
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