CFI headwind mins

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Daz

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Daz
Was chatting to a few CFIs about their personal no-go headwind limitations. Some remarked that they won't fly when the headwind is above 30 KTS. Curious as to what scenarios go into determining their limit. Personally, I'm more concerned about ground taxiing with a 30 KT wind, especially so in a high wing. I won't fly in a greater than 15 KT spread on gusts either.

Thoughts?
 
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Are we talking about CFI limitations for themselves or for their students?

For myself, I'm generally more concerned about taxi than a runway headwind. Beyond that, it depends on the airplane. For example the SportCruiser LSA has a published max demonstrated headwind component of 24 knots. I guess they figure landing backwards is not a good idea.
 
Hmmm. I have a flight logged where I noted a 22G32 headwind for takeoff. Taxi in the 172 was definitely the bigger problem than than the 300' takeoff roll :D
 
midlifeflyer said:
Are we talking about CFI limitations for themselves or for their students?

For myself, I'm generally more concerned about taxi than a runway headwind. Beyond that, it depends on the airplane. For example the SportCruiser LSA has a published max demonstrated headwind component of 24 knots. I guess they figure landing backwards is not a good idea.
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Yeah, their personal no go limits! We've significantly lower limits for our students.
 
MauleSkinner said:
I’ve never heard of no-go headwinds before, so I’m interested to hear what this is all about.
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My thought exactly. Other than ground taxi, not sure what the risk is. We often fly in winds stronger than that the higher we cruise with absolutely no problems.......
 
Headwinds? At what altitude? I generally try to avoid headwinds that exceed my level cruise speed.

If we're talking just surface winds, it depends on the terrain, the gust factor, the direction, and the cause of the winds.

I generally won't launch into anything stronger than 30kts sustained on the ground. But again, it depends.
 
30 knots is a pretty healthy amount of wind, but it more depends on where you fly and the nearby terrain. Here in Oklahoma, I've often taken off above 30 knots of wind, but generally a couple thousand feet up it smooths out, because there isn't any terrain to churn up the air. But, sometimes it doesn't...

In places like western Colorado, taking off with 30+ knots of headwind would be brutal.

And I think you mean "Headwind maxes", not "Headwind mins".
 
Over 30 kts and I get concerned with taxi as well as the amount of crosswind I will be subject to if the direction of the wind shifts prior to or during takeoff.
 
Daz said:
My thought exactly. Other than ground taxi, not sure what the risk is. We often fly in winds stronger than that the higher we cruise with absolutely no problems.......
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I guess you’d need to ask them what their issues are, since it appears to be largely a local thing.
 
Plot twist - Tailwind Maximums! Just how strong of a tailwind are you comfortable excepting?
 
As a CFI, I have no personal headwind limits. As someone paying for the fuel, I do. But that's more about being a cheap bastard and not wanting to see a GS of under 120kts in cruise than it is about my ability or the plane Yes, I have seen it under that once or twice. I wasn't happy about it, but had to make the trip. Even my crosswind limits are pretty lackadaisical. In the PA-24, I've done 25G45 direct, and in a PA28 30 sustained direct - no gusts on that one which made it not all that bad.
 
I flew in 150 kt headwinds one time in the plane pictured to the left. It wasn't fun.
 
FORANE said:
I flew in 150 kt headwinds one time in the plane pictured to the left. It wasn't fun.
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Were you going faster than the traffic on the highway at least? LOL
 
I can't say I've ever cancelled a flight solely due to "headwinds". My own personal minimums for wind depend largely on the mission. If it is an essential trip, I'll tolerate the winds and getting bounced around by them. If its a flight around the patch for fun, or with passengers, my tolerance goes down.
 
I nearly hovered in a Cessna Cutlass at 11,000 feet one December while VFR over the top. The DME was showing a groundspeed of five knots! Since I wanted to get to my destination before the fuel ran out, I requested a pop-up clearance at a more reasonable altitude in the clouds. (Fortunately, I didn't encounter any icing.)
 
Wait a minute, are we talking on the ground or in the air?

A few weeks ago I flew about 800 miles into a 45 to 50 knot headwind. Other than crying about my ground speed dropping to about 130 while the airplane was trueing at 173kts, plus an unplanned fuel stop, it was a smooth ride the whole way.
 
RyanB said:
Yes, but as a CFI, what are your maximums? :p
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For takeoff? As Bob Dole once said when they asked him whether he wears boxers or briefs…”Depends”.:p:p

The strongest tailwind I’ve ever taken off in was probably 15 knots. The airplanes I’m working with now have a 10-knot Limitation.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The airplanes I’m working with now have a 10-knot Limitation.
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Same. That's pretty standard in my experience.

If I can work it out, I will often do a tailwind landing as part of a FR if the pilot hasn't ever done one. It's good to see how fast the ground is going by when they're at normal approach speed, and resist the temptation to make it look "normal" by slowing down.
 
So what does being a CFI have to do with it? My personal limits may be different than what I might be comfortable with giving a student dual in. For a student, it depends on school policy, student phase of training or student skill level.
 
Daz said:
Was chatting to a few CFIs about their personal no-go headwind limitations. Some remarked that they won't fly when the headwind is above 30 KTS. Curious as to what scenarios go into determining their limit. Personally, I'm more concerned about ground taxiing with a 30 KT wind, especially so in a high wing. I won't fly in a greater than 15 KT spread on gusts either.

Thoughts?
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Are these CFIs a bunch of old guys or a bunch rookies?
 
Good news is, 30 knots is an acceptable crosswind for a lot of airplanes, so just take off across the runway. :D
 
Headwinds are welcomed as they lower my landing roll. My plane is a fat goose and doesn't easily get batted around by crosswinds while taxiing.

why is this question directed at CFIs?
 
Brad Z said:
Headwinds? At what altitude? I generally try to avoid headwinds that exceed my level cruise speed.

If we're talking just surface winds, it depends on the terrain, the gust factor, the direction, and the cause of the winds.

I generally won't launch into anything stronger than 30kts sustained on the ground. But again, it depends.
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but sometimes…. It is fun to fly at 0kts! Just need to get some people on the ground to look up and see the airplane “floating”
 
Only cancelled due to headwinds when I was flying a little LSA trainer. It had a max headwind of ~24kts in the POH. But being in that little, 650lb empty, super light wing loading, high wing trainer during 30kt winds was also not a recipe for a fun ride.

In the Arrow I don't feel like there's anything special about a strong headwind (assuming limited gusting). Taxiing is also pretty easy. Landed with a 37ish knot headwind at KAMA on their 13000 foot runway and it was actually pretty fun touching down at a speed that felt like little more than a quick jog. It just guarantees you can turn off at the first taxiway!
 
15 kts, you gotta bump those numbers up.
 
RussR said:
Same. That's pretty standard in my experience.

If I can work it out, I will often do a tailwind landing as part of a FR if the pilot hasn't ever done one. It's good to see how fast the ground is going by when they're at normal approach speed, and resist the temptation to make it look "normal" by slowing down.
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My favorite is a quartering tailwind where you have to reverse the crosswind correction on rollout.
 
Only thing that worries me is the spread in the gusts. If it’s 14G33, then that’s a lot of wind shear that’s possible.

We had a day like that recently. All the airliners were reporting 15-20kt wind shear on final. I was flying a Baron and just kept it right over the runway until I made up the the gust factor.

Was that totally necessary? I don’t know, but it felt like the conservative thing to do.
 
I would encourage everyone to have a max wind component already set. Certainly, there are a lot of variables, but if we as pilots, put too many “it depends”, at the time of the flight, we will find ways of rationalizing ourselves into stupidity. You have to be comfortable with your own max wind. But as the wind speed increases, the risk of an excursion, or other problem with ground handling increases. If you’re flying in ground winds more than 50% of your stall speed, you are not leaving yourself a lot of margin for gusts or wind shifts, even if the wind is down the runway. But whatever your limit is, set it within the comfort of your home or office away from the airport and stick with it. So when that time comes, you don’t have to think about it and rationalize yourself into an accident.
 
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