CFI and student die in crash SMO

"The airplane shortly after or possibly just before touch down, pitched into the air aggressively -- nose up, climbed to about a hundred feet and then rolled to the ground, where it impacted the ground," said Eliott Simpson, an investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board.

...why, I wonder? Student grabbing the stick, perhaps by accident? Said it was an introductory flight, so the student shouldn't generally be performing that landing, correct?
 
Baked Potato said:
"The airplane shortly after or possibly just before touch down, pitched into the air aggressively -- nose up, climbed to about a hundred feet and then rolled to the ground, where it impacted the ground," said Eliott Simpson, an investigator with the National Transportation Safety Board.

...why, I wonder? Student grabbing the stick, perhaps by accident? Said it was an introductory flight, so the student shouldn't generally be performing that landing, correct?
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When I was teaching I let the student do as much flying as they were comfortable with and allowed them to keep hands on controls through the entire landing.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
When I was teaching I let the student do as much flying as they were comfortable with and allowed them to keep hands on controls through the entire landing.
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It's interesting to me, the different approaches to teaching. I don't think I had hands on the controls during landing until *checks logbook* the sixth session.

I also know that we check that seats are locked before takeoff because a natural action in the event that it unexpectedly slides backwards, a new pilot may inadvertently grab the yoke. Though this is in a 50-year old Cessna and not a new LSA that may not have that seat issue. I do know that some of the 150s (maybe 152s?) had a problem with the seats sliding backwards.
 
Tarheelpilot said:
When I was teaching I let the student do as much flying as they were comfortable with and allowed them to keep hands on controls through the entire landing.
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Same. On my demo flight many years ago the instructor talked me through the entire flight and the only thing he did was add some back pressure during the landing flare.
As an instructor I had a few pilot candidates who I was able to talk all the way to an excellent landing. One of them was a 10 year old girl.
 
Baked Potato said:
I also know that we check that seats are locked before takeoff because a natural action in the event that it unexpectedly slides backwards, a new pilot may inadvertently grab the yoke. Though this is in a 50-year old Cessna and not a new LSA that may not have that seat issue. I do know that some of the 150s (maybe 152s?) had a problem with the seats sliding backwards.
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That's certainly a real issue, but I think it usually manifests under acceleration, during take-off. I wouldn't expect it during deceleration for landing.
 
GaryM said:
That's certainly a real issue, but I think it usually manifests under acceleration, during take-off. I wouldn't expect it during deceleration for landing.
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Yes, good point.
 
I though there was some talk of wake turbulence from a King Air ahead of them.

Either way I feel like having the audio logs of these tragedies publicly available is monstrous.
 
Hengelo said:
I though there was some talk of wake turbulence from a King Air ahead of them.

Either way I feel like having the audio logs of these tragedies publicly available is monstrous.
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If wake turbulence from a King Air is enough to cause an LSA to pitch near-vertically during slow flight, I'm really going to reconsider my upcoming trainings in an RV-12...
 
Hengelo said:
I though there was some talk of wake turbulence from a King Air ahead of them.

Either way I feel like having the audio logs of these tragedies publicly available is monstrous.
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Definitely. The 15 year old on his demo flight should have really showed more consideration to those who might have been listening when he death-gripped the yoke.
 
aftCG said:
Same. On my demo flight many years ago the instructor talked me through the entire flight and the only thing he did was add some back pressure during the landing flare.
As an instructor I had a few pilot candidates who I was able to talk all the way to an excellent landing. One of them was a 10 year old girl.
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I let the student THINK they did the landing. :D

It is amazing how well you can fly a typical trainer with rudder and a single finger under the yoke. :D
 
Baked Potato said:
It's interesting to me, the different approaches to teaching. I don't think I had hands on the controls during landing until *checks logbook* the sixth session.

I also know that we check that seats are locked before takeoff because a natural action in the event that it unexpectedly slides backwards, a new pilot may inadvertently grab the yoke. Though this is in a 50-year old Cessna and not a new LSA that may not have that seat issue. I do know that some of the 150s (maybe 152s?) had a problem with the seats sliding backwards.
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Wow. That is very different than how I taught and also how I was taught. Although I think it’s very common to transfer a lot of how we were taught into how we teach.

My primary flight instructor was a very nice lady but was educated as an engineer and was the definition of a practical mind. She only touched controls to demo and promote learning. I’ve always been grateful I found her to be my instructor.
 
Hengelo said:
I though there was some talk of wake turbulence from a King Air ahead of them.

Either way I feel like having the audio logs of these tragedies publicly available is monstrous.
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A king air does not generate enough wake to cause this accident.
 
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Student grabbed stick is most likely cause. Rare but it does happen. Instructors are probably lucky this isn't a more frequent occurrence, but still would be interested in what kind of briefing the student received, as well as any personality quirks of the student. Unfortunately the investigation might not dig that deep or the information might not be available.
 
My understanding is a student grabbed the stick and did not let go despite instructor commands. I think CFI's keeping a little taser to subdue life threatening students is not unreasonable.
 
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One of my instructors described a student frozen onto controls sending the airplane into a dangerous attitude. His thought was to jamb his pencil in the student's eye to get him to let go the controls. Apparently he managed to get control back without enucleation.
 
Rein Hart said:
My understanding is a student grabbed the stick and did not let go despite instructor commands. I think CFI's keeping a little taser to subdue life threatening students is not unreasonable.
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There would be far too little time for tasing anyone in a scenario like that. The airplane is at a hundred feet with no airspeed in about three seconds.
 
dmspilot said:
Student grabbed stick is most likely cause. Rare but it does happen. Instructors are probably lucky this isn't a more frequent occurrence, but still would be interested in what kind of briefing the student received, as well as any personality quirks of the student. Unfortunately the investigation might not dig that deep or the information might not be available.
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I'm not sure it's that rare; I've had instructors tell me about having to wrestle the controls back.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I'm not sure it's that rare; I've had instructors tell me about having to wrestle the controls back.
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That's terrifying. The words "my controls" from the CFI are akin to the word of god to me.

I've always thought of how much trust the CFI is extending to me, especially early on when he knew nothing about me.
 
steingar said:
One of my instructors described a student frozen onto controls sending the airplane into a dangerous attitude. His thought was to jamb his pencil in the student's eye to get him to let go the controls. Apparently he managed to get control back without enucleation.
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A CFI who was giving my wife a pinch hitters course told me about a time he karate chopped a student in the Adam’s apple.
 
Isn't the non-instructing pilot's freezing on the controls thought to be the cause of the 182 crash last year in Florida? I don't know if it's fair to call him a student, since he was an experienced pilot. But he was getting a BFR or something from an instructor. The 182 did a stall, dropped a wing and went straight in. If an adult male locks his arms, it might be very difficult to overcome that in the few seconds the instructor has. Close to the ground, the OODA loop is a second or two at the most.
 
protip from those of us in the full-time puppy mill biznazz: generally, covering the eyes and nose will prompt a reflexive response for the frozen person in question to move at least one of his hands to his/her face, allowing for the controls to be forced back from them. Don't be gentle either, you have to trigger the fight/flight response by striking and pressing/pushing into the person's nugget, like you would the head of a dog that's locking up on you. krav maga FTW.

If you're not prepared to strike a woman in the face, this job might not be for you. I'm genderblind like that. *checks for wife missile lock spike on RWR* *sighs nervously* :D
 
sportcruisers are extremely light on the controls, too. even if the instructor is way stronger it's going to be difficult to get the balance right if there is even a brief lock up on the controls. have flown them many times and when landing you barely even pull back on the stick.
 
Gosh, I’m seeing 2 crashes a day. I thought about going for my CFI ticket but I’m not sure that I’m ready yet hearing stories like this.
 
readytocopy995 said:
sportcruisers are extremely light on the controls, too. even if the instructor is way stronger it's going to be difficult to get the balance right if there is even a brief lock up on the controls. have flown them many times and when landing you barely even pull back on the stick.
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Early models were notoriously light in pitch, even for LSA. Later builds (including, I'd assume, PiperSports like this one) are reportedly a bit better but those I've talked with who've flown them have said control forces are still not particularly well-harmonized?
 
hindsight2020 said:
protip from those of us in the full-time puppy mill biznazz: generally, covering the eyes and nose will prompt a reflexive response for the frozen person in question to move at least one of his hands to his/her face, allowing for the controls to be forced back from them...
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I’m just imagining how practical that is to in your currency ride.

Was thinking something more like this may work better for you.
ea6799bb46ed4d184d5fe83e283a1386.jpg
 
TCABM said:
I’m just imagining how practical that is to in your currency ride.

Was thinking something more like this may work better for you.
ea6799bb46ed4d184d5fe83e283a1386.jpg
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Isn't this just a picture of recovering from unusual attitude training?
 
Hengelo said:
I though there was some talk of wake turbulence from a King Air ahead of them.

Either way I feel like having the audio logs of these tragedies publicly available is monstrous.
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I also prefer not hearing peoples last words but that how it goes. I choose not to listen unless it’s serving a purpose.
 
I had an instructor tell me about a student who froze up on the controls, he said he whacked the guy in the chest about 3 times before he let go. I think I would use a closed fist to the nose. It can definitely be a life or death situation. My primary instructor came to lesson pale one day, I asked him if he was sick, he said no, a student put them into an incipient spin on a turn in the pattern.

Baked Potato said:
It's interesting to me, the different approaches to teaching. I don't think I had hands on the controls during landing until *checks logbook* the sixth session.

I also know that we check that seats are locked before takeoff because a natural action in the event that it unexpectedly slides backwards, a new pilot may inadvertently grab the yoke. Though this is in a 50-year old Cessna and not a new LSA that may not have that seat issue. I do know that some of the 150s (maybe 152s?) had a problem with the seats sliding backwards.
Click to expand...

My instructor had me do the first takeoff of my first lesson which was my first time in a small GA airplane. Obviously he helped me, but after the take off, he told me, "not bad, you are doing them all for the rest of the your lessons." He told me to watch as he talked me through the landing, that I would be doing them all starting next landing. Took me a while to master that, he earned his money during those flights. I never froze on the controls though.
 
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