CFI Airspace Violation Question

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Jason608

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Jason608
My first CFI quit to take a commercial job. He was constantly concerned about me drifting into Bravo airspace, during solo or dual. My 2nd CFI is more confident (I think) in my skills and does not see it as a concern to dwell on.

If a student (dual or solo) does bust Bravo Airspace, is it true when they land they are given a FAA phone number, receive some type of suspension and the CFI loses their CFI Teaching license for 90 days?
 
I don't think there is a set rule that if they bust airspace then "XXXXXXX" will happen. They probably handle on a case by case basis.
 
just get clearance and be done with it. I flown B airspace all the time on training, let them know you are a student pilot you all set, don't be afraid you get same treatment as a 737 pilot :yes:
 
A student needs an endorsement to enter Bravo from a CFI, too.
 
A lot would depend on what the CFI has documented and the student's attitude. It could end up being a slap on the CFI's wrist, or it could be a lot worse.
 
Jason608 said:
My first CFI quit to take a commercial job. He was constantly concerned about me drifting into Bravo airspace, during solo or dual. My 2nd CFI is more confident (I think) in my skills and does not see it as a concern to dwell on.

If a student (dual or solo) does bust Bravo Airspace, is it true when they land they are given a FAA phone number, receive some type of suspension and the CFI loses their CFI Teaching license for 90 days?
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jordane93 said:
I don't think there is a set rule that if they bust airspace then "XXXXXXX" will happen. They probably handle on a case by case basis.
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Correct. Lots of variables.
 
Easy solution is don't bust it. :p (Super helpful I know.)
 
Jason608 said:
My first CFI quit to take a commercial job. He was constantly concerned about me drifting into Bravo airspace, during solo or dual. My 2nd CFI is more confident (I think) in my skills and does not see it as a concern to dwell on.

If a student (dual or solo) does bust Bravo Airspace, is it true when they land they are given a FAA phone number, receive some type of suspension and the CFI loses their CFI Teaching license for 90 days?
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I instruct at an airport right under Class B. Dual is never a problem I know what I am doing and where I am. I educate the student very well, then: my custom pre-solo exam has questions designed to demonstrate that they are proficient, if they bust it and FAA talks to me I have tons of documentation that solo did not occur until student was suffuciently educated and demonstrated appropriate knowledge. Of course I keep a signed copy of exam.
 
Jason608 said:
If a student (dual or solo) does bust Bravo Airspace, is it true when they land they are given a FAA phone number, receive some type of suspension and the CFI loses their CFI Teaching license for 90 days?
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If you're talking to ATC when it happens, you'll probably be given a phone number to call after landing, but that will be ATC's number, not the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO) where the Inspectors who investigate violations are. When you call, the ATC people will discuss the matter with you, and decide whether or not to file a Pilot Deviation ("PD") report with the FSDO.

If you're flying with your instructor when this happens, it all falls on the instructor. If you're solo, the primary responsibility falls on you as PIC, but the investigating Inspector may look into the training you received from your instructor. If that training was deficient, they may also take action against your instructor even though s/he wasn't in the plane at the time, and that action could (but wouldn't necessarily) include either reexamination of his/her instructing skills or suspension of his/her CFI ticket.

As for the action taken, it could range anywhere from a bit of over-the-phone counseling, to a letter telling you not to do it again (said letter staying in your file for two years), to remedial training with a FSDO-designated instructor, to a certificate action (suspension or revocation). The level of action will depend on a lot of factors, including the attitude you display when talking with ATC or the FSDO, your level of qualifications, your past record, and the seriousness and nature of the violation. Note, however, that a 90-day suspension would be for very serious offenses, and your average B-space bust doesn't fall in that category.
 
Which raises the question, is there any such thing as suspending or revoking a student pilot certificate?
 
Palmpilot said:
Which raises the question, is there any such thing as suspending or revoking a student pilot certificate?
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I think a student pilot gets caught on a ramp check flying with passengers, or lands on the National Mall will be able to answer your question. In other words, a willful violation of the regs should do the trick of loosing your student ticket.
 
Ron Levy said:
If you're flying with your instructor when this happens, it all falls on the instructor. If you're solo, the primary responsibility falls on you as PIC, but the investigating Inspector may look into the training you received from your instructor. If that training was deficient, they may also take action against your instructor even though s/he wasn't in the plane at the time, and that action could (but wouldn't necessarily) include either reexamination of his/her instructing skills or suspension of his/her CFI ticket.
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If you're dual, it falls on both of you ( see the P-area bust a few years ago).

If you're solo, as Ron says, it depends on what your training taught you. FWIW, when a fellow student ran his Cessna dry on a short XC, the CFI was investigated but no action taken IIRC.
 
Jason608 said:
My first CFI quit to take a commercial job. He was constantly concerned about me drifting into Bravo airspace, during solo or dual. My 2nd CFI is more confident (I think) in my skills and does not see it as a concern to dwell on.

If a student (dual or solo) does bust Bravo Airspace, is it true when they land they are given a FAA phone number, receive some type of suspension and the CFI loses their CFI Teaching license for 90 days?
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Not automatically, no. I would think that the instruction given would have to prove to be inadequate to standards to get a 90 day rip.
 
I had a student, years ago, do something bad. The first call from the FAA was something like this. You are an incompetent CFI and we will be conducting an investigation. Do you mind if I record this call. Answer was, yes I object to your recording the call and I will get back to you after I speak with an attorney.

Under the advice of the attorney, I followed through and received nothing on my certificate. The short answer is yes, your instructor's certificate is in jeopardy every time your student flys solo.

How did I get out of it. I listened to my Aviation Law class instructor (the attorney advising me) and documented everything in the student's logbook, in detail. When the FAA asked to prove I had taught something, I referred them to the specific page in my student's logbook. "Here is the date when I instructed my student on procedures for ......"
 
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Thanks everyone, I have a better understanding now.
 
Henning said:
Not automatically, no. I would think that the instruction given would have to prove to be inadequate to standards to get a 90 day rip.
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If it's just poor instruction which led to a solo Student flight violation, a 709 ride is a lot more likely than a suspension for the instructor. OTOH, if the instructor flat failed to teach required material, or otherwise violated a specific instruction-related regulation, then a certificate action comes into play.
 
Ron Levy said:
If it's just poor instruction which led to a solo Student flight violation, a 709 ride is a lot more likely than a suspension for the instructor. OTOH, if the instructor flat failed to teach required material, or otherwise violated a specific instruction-related regulation, then a certificate action comes into play.
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Maybe. Each situation is different. Too many variables to have a one size fits all.
 
Ron Levy said:
Exactly why I said "likely" and "comes into play" rather than anything absolute. As they said about managing a baseball team: "It's all situations."
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Yep, and a very complex one. As one of the very few on this board that has actually worked the process, it's very fluid. A cooperative and compliant attitude goes a long way.
 
RotorAndWing said:
Yep, and a very complex one. As one of the very few on this board that has actually worked the process, it's very fluid. A cooperative and compliant attitude goes a long way.
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As another who has worked the process (from the other end), I agree completely.

One of the things I talk about when I do an enforcement seminar for pilots is reject the usual "keep your mouth shut!" advice in favor of explaining that the decision to talk or not talk and, if you talk, what to say, is far more nuanced. Sure, keeping your mouth shut might be the best thing you can do; but other times it can be the very worst thing you can do.

Of course, that's a biased viewpoint since the fact that its is so fluid makes consultation with a professional more, not less, important, something I was reminded of again just yesterday.
 
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I busted Bravo as a student pilot.
Once, confirmed as I flew into it for about 10 seconds before I caught it and quickly got out. Called "someone" who said I could fill out an ASRS or I could do nothing and wait but likely as I clipped it, caught it, ATC probably won't do anything as it was also in an area under the bravo in an uncontrolled field where it probably occurs from time to time.

I did nothing and never heard anything.

Once, unconfirmed, I was dorking with foreflight on a really bumpy day and I looked at my alt and I was at 3200 ish. I had left the 3000 shelf and entered the 4k shelf a half a minute prior to noting this. I don't know if I busted or not but I did fill out the report stating I may very well have.

I never heard anything.


I suspect it depends on how busy they are, how bad you bust, if the controller is a having a bad day, etc

I have heard unconfirmed rumors of them following you to where you land, calling that airport, and getting your tail number but I don't know anyone to which that has happened.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I busted Bravo as a student pilot.
Once, confirmed as I flew into it for about 10 seconds before I caught it and quickly got out. Called "someone" who said I could fill out an ASRS or I could do nothing and wait but likely as I clipped it, caught it, ATC probably won't do anything as it was also in an area under the bravo in an uncontrolled field where it probably occurs from time to time.

I did nothing and never heard anything.

Once, unconfirmed, I was dorking with foreflight on a really bumpy day and I looked at my alt and I was at 3200 ish. I had left the 3000 shelf and entered the 4k shelf a half a minute prior to noting this. I don't know if I busted or not but I did fill out the report stating I may very well have.

I never heard anything.


I suspect it depends on how busy they are, how bad you bust, if the controller is a having a bad day, etc

I have heard unconfirmed rumors of them following you to where you land, calling that airport, and getting your tail number but I don't know anyone to which that has happened.
Click to expand...

Here's how my Bravo bust went:
http://www.pilotsofamerica.com/forum/showthread.php?t=39513

John
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I suspect it depends on how busy they are, how bad you bust, if the controller is a having a bad day, etc

I have heard unconfirmed rumors of them following you to where you land, calling that airport, and getting your tail number but I don't know anyone to which that has happened.
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It depends. Someone made a rather significant airspace bust at SDF, and the contollers were asking other planes (including me) if they could see and identify the interloper.

Around the DC SFRA, you're pretty much guaranteed to be followed if you violate the SFRA, and depeneding on the severity, you may well end up eating gravel as the LEOs investigate.
 
A student cut right across Denver's airspace on a return from a cross country. ATC was watching him and steered everyone away from him. The instructor got a lot of scolding from the FAA but was still instructing when he told me the story. Student went back home with tail between legs.
 
coloradobluesky said:
A student cut right across Denver's airspace on a return from a cross country. ATC was watching him and steered everyone away from him. The instructor got a lot of scolding from the FAA but was still instructing when he told me the story. Student went back home with tail between legs.
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It happened to my first CFI too, long enough ago now that I'm pretty sure he wouldn't mind my telling the story. The student was flying IFR (I Follow Roads) down I-94 coming back to DET after an XC to somewhere to the west, JXN I think, or maybe BTL. As a quick look at the Detroit sectional will show, along that route lies the DTW Bravo surface area... ooops! :redface:

He didn't say whether the FAA took any action against him, but I believe he fired the student, and for at least a long time after that kept all of his students on a lot shorter leash.
 
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