Cessna Centurion crashes on approach to Lubbock, TX | Icing Conditions

[Tantalum]

Ultimately I really doubt that declaring would have helped this guy. That first approach tells us everything we need to know. ATC set him up real nice to intercept the localizer and this guy was hopelessly behind the airplane.. nevermind that he knowingly flew a plane without sufficient ice shedding capabilities into what is arguably the worst type of icing conditions

And what would that emergency declaration have consisted of "Mayday Mayday Mayday, I'm declaring emergency because I flew a non FIKI plane into freezing rain and I can't figure out how to use the GPS. Picking up lots of ice and I'm disoriented, I set up the GPS for 17 even though you guys are using 35"

..had this guy been in a non fiki Cirrus the group here would have crucified him. Instead the immediate reaction here is to blame ATC for a pilot's extremely poor decision making skills

/sorry, does that classify as a rant? Maybe..

 

[wsuffa]

But notice that the air carrier types (121, 125, 135) don't have this problem. Why? Training and recurrent training.

The Part 91 GA crowd typically get a certificate and that is the end of any formal training they ever see, with the exception of the $100 hamburger run with a CFI friend that gets logged as a flight review. So now it becomes a fear of getting the FAA involved with anything that may involve a look at the qualifications of the pilot in question.

Again, in the air carrier world it is trained and reinforced to declare an emergency when needed and to use the resources available. The accident record air carrier vs GA speaks for itself.

I don't disagree but I also note that air carriers generally also have union representation which can bring additional resources to defend the pilot with both management and the FAA. The typical GA pilot doesn't have that kind of representation and generally faces any inquiry either alone or with payment out of their own pocket.

Again, if it's a choice of money or your life, chooses life.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I don't disagree but I also note that air carriers generally also have union representation which can bring additional resources to defend the pilot with both management and the FAA. The typical GA pilot doesn't have that kind of representation and generally faces any inquiry either alone or with payment out of their own pocket.

Again, if it's a choice of money or your life, chooses life.

The union representation has nothing to do with it.

The training has everything to do with it. The crew has nothing to worry about as long as they are following SOP and dealing with the emergency. The core here is to deal with the emergency first and foremost, and deal with the FAA and paperwork later.

At no time in my career during a declared emergency did I hesitate "gee, this might get the FAA involved.." and let that steer my decision. I dealt with the emergency and filed the paperwork afterwards.

Your typical GA pilot has essentially one checkride, and more times than not, never ever sees any real training there after. Another problem is the typical GA pilot relies on information gathered at hangar BS sessions or the "experts" on internet forums who get them to believe the FAA is just waiting to strip away everything at the slightest infraction.

 

[Salty]

The union representation has nothing to do with it.

The training has everything to do with it. The crew has nothing to worry about as long as they are following SOP and dealing with the emergency. The core here is to deal with the emergency first and foremost, and deal with the FAA and paperwork later.

At no time in my career during a declared emergency did I hesitate "gee, this might get the FAA involved.." and let that steer my decision. I dealt with the emergency and filed the paperwork afterwards.

Your typical GA pilot has essentially one checkride, and more times than not, never ever sees any real training there after. Another problem is the typical GA pilot relies on information gathered at hangar BS sessions or the "experts" on internet forums who get them to believe the FAA is just waiting to strip away everything at the slightest infraction.

The fact that the FAA can take your rights away with administrative actions that you have no legal recourse against, it's a real thing to be concerned about. Pretending that it's not is ignoring reality. IMO it's not a bad idea to avoid drawing the FAA's eye toward you. Obviously, I don't think you should kill yourself in order to avoid it, but hopefully I've made my point.

 

[Doc Holliday]

The fact that the FAA can take your rights away with administrative actions that you have no legal recourse against, it's a real thing to be concerned about. Pretending that it's not is ignoring reality. IMO it's not a bad idea to avoid drawing the FAA's eye toward you. Obviously, I don't think you should kill yourself in order to avoid it, but hopefully I've made my point.

But you have just reinforced to others that declaring an emergency "draws the FAA eye towards you" and that "administrative actions that you have no legal recourse against" (which, btw, is not true) and are in fact encouraging others not to declare.

 

[Salty]

But you have just reinforced to others that declaring an emergency "draws the FAA eye towards you" and that "administrative actions that you have no legal recourse against" (which, btw, is not true) and are in fact encouraging others not to declare.

I recognize that my statements reinforce not wanting to declare. But they are real. It shouldn’t stop you, but it certainly is a real thing; one that I choose not to completely ignore.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I recognize that my statements reinforce not wanting to declare. But they are real. It shouldn’t stop you, but it certainly is a real thing; one that I choose not to completely ignore.

Based on myths and internet forum lore.

 

[Salty]

Based on myths and internet forum lore.

If you choose to put your head in the sand.

The problem is that it's very arbitrary, and you have no rights, only a granted privilege. You can give ATC the middle finger in a Bravo without clearance and have nothing happen, or do something completely innocent and lose all your rights to fly. With other aspects of American life, we have rights that require a burden of proof before we lose them. Not so with flying privileges.

 

[Doc Holliday]

If you choose to put your head in the sand.

The problem is that it's very arbitrary, and you have no rights, only a granted privilege. You can give ATC the middle finger in a Bravo without clearance and have nothing happen, or do something completely innocent and lose all your rights to fly. With other aspects of American life, we have rights that require a burden of proof before we lose them. Not so with flying privileges.

Again, predictably, you are speaking on something you know absolutely nothing about, except from what you have gathered off of a forum.

Come back when you have some actual facts.

 

[Vance Breese]

I declared a mayday once when my engine stopped on an extended down wind and there was no follow up from the FAA beyond a polite telephone call.

Declaring an emergency allowed ATC to cancel a takeoff clearance and clear me to land anywhere on airport property. The fire department thanked me for the practice and helped me push the aircraft off the runway.

I don’t know how I would have received a landing clearance without declaring an emergency and in my opinion that would have caused trouble with the FAA.

I declared a state of urgency (PAN PAN PAN) once because of reduced engine power and it allowed ATC to cancel a takeoff clearance and allow me to land on a cross wind runway that intersected the runway in use. Emergency vehicles were not rolled and there was no follow up from the FAA.

No people or aircraft were harmed during either event.

 

[sarangan]

Again, predictably, you are speaking on something you know absolutely nothing about, except from what you have gathered off of a forum.

Come back when you have some actual facts.

I did have an emergency one time at an uncontrolled airport in VFR conditions. I supposed I could have called on 121.5 and declared an emergency,. but that thought never really occurred to me because I didn't see how anyone can help me except myself. Declaring gives priority handing, but the pilot needs to know what he wants. ATC can't guess what the best thing is for a pilot stuck in the clouds. If you are already cleared to land, then asking for priority handling does not make a lot of sense.

 

[Doc Holliday]

. ATC can't guess what the best thing is for a pilot stuck in the clouds. If you are already cleared to land, then asking for priority handling does not make a lot of sense.

If you are cleared to land, and do not declare, the tower can have you go around (traffic, etc). If you have declared, then he knows to stop all traffic until you are down. He can also advise other traffic of your situation.

 

[Salty]

Again, predictably, you are speaking on something you know absolutely nothing about, except from what you have gathered off of a forum.

Come back when you have some actual facts.

You're entitled to your opinion. But, in my opinion, you need to come back with facts showing that you have a presumption of innocence when dealing with the FAA, and they can't remove your privileges with an administrative action, but rather have to go to court to prove that you did something wrong before removing said privileges. You can't come back with it, 'cuz It don't work that way.

 

[Doc Holliday]

You're entitled to your opinion. But, in my opinion, you need to come back with facts showing that you have a presumption of innocence when dealing with the FAA, and they can't remove your privileges with an administrative action, but rather have to go to court to prove that you did something wrong before removing said privileges. You can't come back with it, 'cuz It don't work that way.

I could provide all of the documentation to show how wrong you are, but you would just cite some lame internet forum myth, and before too long you would whip out the "Bob Hoover Card" to make an inane point.

BTW, just curious, how many actual interaction have you, personally, ever had with a FSDO or an Inspector?

And have you ever declared an emergency, and then had any interaction with the FAA afterwards?

 

[Tantalum]

Blancolirio did a good analysis of this. While he acknowledges that ATC gave this guy no favors he also implores heavily that these people had no reason to be flying in those conditions

-----

You can give ATC the middle finger in a Bravo without clearance

it's okay if your wife approves it.

-----
Just to go down a potentially slippery slope... let's say the guy declares.. and let's say he still crashes (iced up plane.. stalls low altitude) BUT does not die.. he got vectors and his declaration got ATC to be very helpful in stepping him down.. and he lands short, bangs up the plane, but survives.. the subsequent investigation may uncover items that they can nail him on FAR 91.13, reckless and careless operation of an aircraft..

 

[Doc Holliday]

You can give ATC the middle finger in a Bravo without clearance and have nothing happen,

Do you have an example of this happening?

 

[Tantalum]

Do you have an example of this happening?

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think he's talking about the dude who plowed through LAS BRAVO and basically told ATC to go F themselves. Someone here did some digging and nothing ever happened to him.

 

[Doc Holliday]

I don't have a horse in this race, but I think he's talking about the dude who plowed through LAS BRAVO and basically told ATC to go F themselves. Someone here did some digging and nothing ever happened to him.

Seems I read that as well, and it stated there was an ongoing investigation. Can hardly classify that as "nothing ever happened".

 

[Tantalum]

Seems I read that as well, and it stated there was an ongoing investigation. Can hardly classify that as "nothing ever happened".

I see that now.. that wasn't mentioned in the OP and wasn't following the thread

 

[PaulS]

-----
Just to go down a potentially slippery slope... let's say the guy declares.. and let's say he still crashes (iced up plane.. stalls low altitude) BUT does not die.. he got vectors and his declaration got ATC to be very helpful in stepping him down.. and he lands short, bangs up the plane, but survives.. the subsequent investigation may uncover items that they can nail him on FAR 91.13, reckless and careless operation of an aircraft..

Had he lived with the result you posit, the items the FAA uncover, will be uncovered whether he declared or not.

The FAA had a wings talk around here with a couple controllers and an inspector. They covered declaring an emergency and how it allows them to ignore things like separation and other rules to help you out. It also allows them to clear areas around you plus clues them in that you have an issue. I've seen so many posts by people asking "why didn't ATC realize that guy or this guy was in distress and help him out?" The answer is the guy didn't tell them he was in trouble and most controllers are not pilots.

Honestly I think most of these excuses to not declare, such as "I don't want to get in trouble" are chickenchit. If you need to declare, do it, save your life, deal with the FAA later, in the grand scheme of things it's not that big of a deal. If you were breaking rules then take your lumps like a man (woman).

In one of the flying mags this month there is an article written by a guy whose elevator seized up, turns out it almost fell off. He called the tower and asked to come in, and explained the problem. The tower asked him if it wanted to declare, he said he didn't think that was necessary. WTF, his elevator was jammed!!! Sounds like the tower basically handled him as an emergency anyway, but come on.

 

[benyflyguy]

Ultimately I really doubt that declaring would have helped this guy. That first approach tells us everything we need to know. ATC set him up real nice to intercept the localizer and this guy was hopelessly behind the airplane.. nevermind that he knowingly flew a plane without sufficient ice shedding capabilities into what is arguably the worst type of icing conditions

And what would that emergency declaration have consisted of "Mayday Mayday Mayday, I'm declaring emergency because I flew a non FIKI plane into freezing rain and I can't figure out how to use the GPS. Picking up lots of ice and I'm disoriented, I set up the GPS for 17 even though you guys are using 35"

..had this guy been in a non fiki Cirrus the group here would have crucified him. Instead the immediate reaction here is to blame ATC for a pilot's extremely poor decision making skills

/sorry, does that classify as a rant? Maybe..

This guy was so behind I don’t think he would have had the wherewithal to pull the chute.

 

[Tantalum]

This guy was so behind I don’t think he would have had the wherewithal to pull the chute.

I actually had something written about if only he had had a chute then I rewrote it..

 

[sarangan]

If you are cleared to land, and do not declare, the tower can have you go around (traffic, etc). If you have declared, then he knows to stop all traffic until you are down. He can also advise other traffic of your situation.

Good point.

 

[Jim K]

In one of the flying mags this month there is an article written by a guy whose elevator seized up, turns out it almost fell off. He called the tower and asked to come in, and explained the problem. The tower asked him if it wanted to declare, he said he didn't think that was necessary. WTF, his elevator was jammed!!! Sounds like the tower basically handled him as an emergency anyway, but come on.

AOPA Pilot, just read it yesterday. I had the same reaction...wtf! If losing a primary control isn't the definition of an emergency i don't know what is.

Maybe we need a Jeff Foxworthy style series

if your airplane is covered in ice....you might have an emergency
If your windshield is covered in engine oil....you might have an emergency
if you are on fire....you might have an emergency

 

[PaulS]

AOPA Pilot, just read it yesterday. I had the same reaction...wtf! If losing a primary control isn't the definition of an emergency i don't know what is.

Maybe we need a Jeff Foxworthy style series

if your airplane is covered in ice....you might have an emergency
If your windshield is covered in engine oil....you might have an emergency
if you are on fire....you might have an emergency

Lol, exactly!

 

[Zeldman]

if your airplane is covered in ice....you might have an emergency
If your windshield is covered in engine oil....you might have an emergency
if you are on fire....you might have an emergency

If the co-pilot passes gas that renders the pilot unconscious.... you might have an emergency....

 

[Racerx]

If the co-pilot passes gas that renders the pilot unconscious.... you might have an emergency....

If they trusted one they shouldn't have... definite emergency.

 

[3393RP]

IMO it's not a bad idea to avoid drawing the FAA's eye toward you. Obviously, I don't think you should kill yourself in order to avoid it, but hopefully I've made my point.

There are plenty of wadded up airplanes and dead pilots to attest to the fact that killing oneself while avoiding making the declaration of an emergency happens regularly.

 

[Zeldman]

There are plenty of wadded up airplanes and dead pilots to attest to the fact that killing oneself while avoiding making the declaration of an emergency happens regularly.

Sad, but true. Even the flight school I went to taught students to not do anything during a emergency that may attract attention of the FAA. As as student I thought that was a poor idea. If I have to destroy the plane to save lives and avoid injury to passengers, then so be it.

 

[sarangan]

Sad, but true. Even the flight school I went to taught students to not do anything during a emergency that may attract attention of the FAA. As as student I thought that was a poor idea. If I have to destroy the plane to save lives and avoid injury to passengers, then so be it.

This ASF video is worth watching. You can declare an emergency, but if you don't communicate what you need clearly and firmly, it can still end up in a disaster.

 

[PaulS]

This ASF video is worth watching. You can declare an emergency, but if you don't communicate what you need clearly and firmly, it can still end up in a disaster.

I'll watch the video tomorrow, but I do want to say declaring an emergency does not mean you subrogate your responsibility as PIC to ATC. You still have to perform and stay in the driver seat, pun intended. There are too many accidents where ATC trying to be helpful has had bad outcomes when the pilot just mindlessly follows along. "Unable" and "standby" are two very powerful words with ATC, use them if you need to.

 

[3393RP]

.

This photo of ice found at the scene speaks volumes about the conditions. Note the curved form where the ice was bonded to a wing, elevator, vertical stabilizer, or strut.

.

The responding Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors reported that the airplane impacted a residential area about 200 yards from the final recorded ADS-B point and about 6 miles south of LBB. A post impact fire consumed most of the fuselage and the inboard sections of each wing. The inspectors found numerous chunks of ice in the wreckage near the wings, and pieces still attached to some of the airplane’s leading edge surfaces. The ice chunks were concave shaped and featured a smooth surface on the inside of the curve. The ice ranged from 1 to 2 inches thick. Figure 2 shows a close up view of the ice found on scene.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/02/cessna-210-centurion-n9622t-incident.html?m=0

 

[steingar]

While @Salty has a point, I'd much rather have to face one irate FAA inspector than have my decomposing corpse carried by 6 of my closest friends. If the chips are down I"ll happily declare and worry about the ramifications later.

 

[sarangan]

.

This photo of ice found at the scene speaks volumes about the conditions. Note the curved form where the ice was bonded to a wing, elevator, vertical stabilizer, or strut.

.

The responding Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) inspectors reported that the airplane impacted a residential area about 200 yards from the final recorded ADS-B point and about 6 miles south of LBB. A post impact fire consumed most of the fuselage and the inboard sections of each wing. The inspectors found numerous chunks of ice in the wreckage near the wings, and pieces still attached to some of the airplane’s leading edge surfaces. The ice chunks were concave shaped and featured a smooth surface on the inside of the curve. The ice ranged from 1 to 2 inches thick. Figure 2 shows a close up view of the ice found on scene.

http://www.kathrynsreport.com/2020/02/cessna-210-centurion-n9622t-incident.html?m=0

Those photos of the ice chunks are scary. Its worth showing to every pilot who has contemplated flying in icing weather.

 

[Tantalum]

While @Salty has a point, I'd much rather have to face one irate FAA inspector than have my decomposing corpse carried by 6 of my closest friends. If the chips are down I"ll happily declare and worry about the ramifications later.

But this assumes declaring would have saved him. This guy was so far behind the plane, his fate was sealed when he failed to intercept the localizer the first time. Declaring would get him a priority with their traffic control and assistance but an iced up plane in hard IMC with someone who's that far behind the plane is a hard one to pull out of. ultimately it seems like he got slow on the approach and the plane stopped flying with two inches of ice on the wings

 

[steingar]

But this assumes declaring would have saved him. This guy was so far behind the plane, his fate was sealed when he failed to intercept the localizer the first time. Declaring would get him a priority with their traffic control and assistance but an iced up plane in hard IMC with someone who's that far behind the plane is a hard one to pull out of. ultimately it seems like he got slow on the approach and the plane stopped flying with two inches of ice on the wings

I can't disagree with you at all. I just felt the discussion had moved onto a more general "should I declare and emergency?" and the relevant ramifications. Given the potential for catastrophe I'll declare if I think there's a chance it will help me. Have to agree, nothing would have helped the accident pilot except perhaps learning to fly more better before the accident.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Declaring may not have saved his bacon, but in general I find it odd that so many pilots don’t declare. There are no paperwork involved that I know of, even if there is, you will at least be here to do those. Yeah you may get a call from your friend FAA/FSDO enquiring what on gods green earth were you doing in the freezing rain, but isn’t it better to answer the question yourself than be gone and leave the world wondering?

Go flying with your whole family on board including a young child and it only takes a few seconds to declare when a problem arrises. It sure took away any of the hesitation for me.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Nobody is discussing being first on the approach to a non towered airport without emergency services. It's obvious that declaring in that situation may not be of benefit.

But, in a radar environment, under control, to an airport with a tower and services, make the declaration and take advantage of the services. Talking to the FAA afterwards should be the least of anyone's concerns.

Yeah, but it may setup a situation kinda like having an open flight plan where if you don't make it to the ground and give someone a call, they will initiate a search and rescue mission. That would be welcome if you happen to lose something else on that final to an un-towered airport and end up crashing short of the runway.

 

[Tantalum]

I can't disagree with you at all. I just felt the discussion had moved onto a more general "should I declare and emergency?" and the relevant ramifications. Given the potential for catastrophe I'll declare if I think there's a chance it will help me. Have to agree, nothing would have helped the accident pilot except perhaps learning to fly more better before the accident.

I do agree though that for one reason or another people have a hesitance over declaring. Whether that's related to a fear of the FAA, pride, or the failure to realize how dire your predicament actually is. The guy in the twin at LAS.. he didn't seem to have any clue that he was moments away from his own death. Declaring in his case would have gotten him through that BRAVO and on the ground. In this case with the ice.. the best he could have gotten is more helpful vectors from ATC

 

[Rockymountain]

Declaring an emergency may have change the outcome. He certainly would have gotten better handling, maybe even vectors. I heard an SR22 in trouble in ice over the Rockies one day. I think he was at 12-14K iirc. Was asking about climbing to get out of the ice, and ATC said they had no reports. I could tell from his voice, he was in trouble. I haf just climbed up through that weather in a Mirage. That sounded like a really bad idea, and I reported that tops were about 23,000 with ice all the way up. He then asked to turn around which was a very good idea. I have also heard a few emergencies regarding engine issues, and there’s often times a whole lot of experience flying up there beyond what ATC can offer. One time I heard a centurion with the engine issues. Some pilot on freq Gave a nice summary of flows to make sure everything was checked from magnetos, fuel flow, pumps tanks. And I relayed for that aircraft which was in IMC, Until they were safely on the ground. You sure don’t wanna add to though pilots bandwidth, but if I heard a 172 with that voice in ice, I would probably tell ATC to consider declaring an emergency for that pilot. And I’d also tell them that they might consider telling the pilot to keep his speed up. Most ATC are not pilots, but at any given time there’s a whole lot of pilot experience flying within ear shot of a plane in distress.