Cessna 340's

[jmpoplin]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

 

[LDJones]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

Never owned one but have flown it's sister, the 414 and have flown a number of Barons. It's not any tougher to fly, but you'll probably have some extra expense with the pressurization, but that adds a lot to the comfort factor on long trips that can be flown high without nose hoses.

Both are nice flying machines.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I've generally heard positive things from those who do own them, although none claimed they were cheap to maintain. A 340 will definitely cost you more to maintain than a Baron. The real question is, do you really need the pressurization and cabin size and are those features worth the increased cost of operation? If so, go for it.

For me, I would have really been pushing it to own and operate a 340 and would not have had much breathing room in the budget. On top of that, I'd probably only make one trip a year where the pressurization was really a useful feature. Hardly enough to justify buying one. The Baron was a good compromise.

 

[JimG.]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

I owned a 1978 with RAM 6 engines for about 5 years.

It's a great airplane for a small family. It's not a true 6 passenger airplane.

210 kn Cruise speed… 18,000–20,000 cruise altitude… 40 gallons per hour… and it will cost you a minimum of $5000/month just to own it in the 1st few years

what are you upgrading from?

 

[jmpoplin]

what are you upgrading from?

I currently have a Commander 114. Wondering if a light twin (310, Seneca) is a better alternative to the 340, etc.

 

[JimG.]

I currently have a Commander 114. Wondering if a light twin (310, Seneca) is a better alternative to the 340, etc.

I went 20+ years in a bonanza before upgrading

It's doable, but it comes with a price attached

My 1st year insurance premium was $15,000, and on top of that I spent $5000 on a trip to flight safety, followed by 40 hours with a mentor pilot in the airplane, and an additional 10 hours solo before I could fly passengers

My attitude was… if I was upgrading to a twin… why not go all the way (within reason)

A 310 is a fine air plane, and the R– model is a little bit faster if you don't need pressurization.

I live out West where the rocks grow 13,000 feet, and the clouds grow taller, and there were a lot of flights that I would not have taken had I not had pressurization and the ability to comfortably fly on top

Other than maybe a little more gross weight (?), How much advantage does a Seneca provide over a bonanza?

 

[bbchien]

I went 20+ years in a bonanza before upgrading

It's doable, but it comes with a price attached

My 1st year insurance premium was $15,000, and on top of that I spent $5000 on a trip to flight safety, followed by 40 hours with a mentor pilot in the airplane, and an additional 10 hours solo before I could fly passengers

My attitude was… if I was upgrading to a twin… why not go all the way (within reason)

A 310 is a fine air plane, and the R– model is a little bit faster if you don't need pressurization.

I live out West where the rocks grow 13,000 feet, and the clouds grow taller, and there were a lot of flights that I would not have taken had I not had pressurization and the ability to comfortably fly on top

Other than maybe a little more gross weight (?), How much advantage does a Seneca provide over a bonanza?

My premium on the Seneca II is $3,100, 1M smooth, Agreed value $142,000.

SE service ceiling is 13,500 (Merlins).
FIKI
We cross the Rockies at 19K usually, and plan our MAP so that we can make the fix on one blower (KASE mins are 10,800).
18 gph combined at 155-160 knots, I can get 180 kts up high.

There are some advantages.

I shopped hard for a 340A. Looked at Dick Karl's The sled were coked. Most of the ones I saw had coked sleds. The slipjoints are a problem....

 

[DavidWhite]

I think OP would look really good in a Duke.

 

[JimG.]

My premium on the Seneca II is $3,100, 1M smooth, Agreed value $142,000.

SE service ceiling is 13,500 (Merlins).
FIKI
We cross the Rockies at 19K usually, and plan our MAP so that we can make the fix on one blower (KASE mins are 10,800).
18 gph combined at 155-160 knots, I can get 180 kts up high.

There are some advantages.

I shopped hard for a 340A. Looked at Dick Karl's The sled were coked. Most of the ones I saw had coked sleds. The slipjoints are a problem....

Good to see you again Dr. Bruce…


My last year's premium was $6000 for a $250,000 value

I put the 1st hour on the engines, but the 1st annual one year later was $18,000 to get it in the condition I liked.

The last annual was $10,000.

Slip joints are a problem

Had it not been for the spinal cord injuries, and simultaneous neuromuscular disease… I would still be flying that airplane.

 

[wabower]

All of the cabin-class twins are expensive to own and operate, and in most cases much more expensive than new owners anticipate. I spend most days in a shop that maintains ~50 of them for owners all over the US, and there's simply no escaping the cost issue. Those who are familiar with the planes can quickly summarize the problem areas, but suffice to that many occur with regularity.

The "well, we really caught up on lotsa stuff this year so next year's MX shouldn't be nearly as expensive" simply doesn't work. They are incredibly complex machines, the last of which was built in the 1980's. My 340 was almost new when we bought it in 1984 and shop labor rates were approximately half of 2013 rates. My MX costs were ~$1/mo for the four years of ownership, and today's owners can expect that number to be at least double.

 

[NineThreeKilo]

Why? unless you fly ALOT I wouldnt play the twin game.

IF you really want a twin, why not a twin Comanche make a heck of alot more sense then a complex money pit like a 340 or the like.

 

[Fearless Tower]

I currently have a Commander 114. Wondering if a light twin (310, Seneca) is a better alternative to the 340, etc.

For me it was. Like I was saying, for my use, the added capability of the 340 just wasn't worth the increased cost.

 

[Ted]

I operate a 310N and manage all expenses for it.

The first thing I'd suggest if you're interested in buying a Twin Cessna is to join The Twin Cessna Flyer (www.twincessna.org), it's a valuable resource.

The first question is to define your mission. Pressurization is expensive. The engines work harder to feed pressurization and the pressurization leaks out, which you have to fix. I've found our cost all-in is about $300-$350/hr. For a 340 it seems you're looking at $500+ for not much more speed, and you have to go higher to get the speed. That's only useful on long trips or over the Rockies.

What I like about the 310 is it's got a good cabin that's comfortable for 4 (our family of 3 is very comfortable) with lots of space. We have the colemill conversion that gives the advantages of naturally aspirated reliability and economy with turbocharged climb rates below 10,000 feet. We don't feed pressurization. We also don't care about the cabin class layout, but a lot of families do.

Wayne's more familiar with the realities of 340 MX than I am. On the 310 and Aztec before that (and talking to others with same), you can usually get away with a cheaper annual or two for every "good" annual. I've never heard that from a 340-421 owner. It seems like when you change out the windshield to fix the pressurization then the door leaks. After you fix that the wastegate sticks, and then a valve breaks. That's actually a list of true squawks from a 340 I used to know that just went one after the other.

We're in that weird category where we would probably benefit from pressurization and turbos because we do quite long trips pretty frequently. Still, we're able to do 185-190 on 27 GPH combined (and a bit less on both if we pull it back) with de-ice, radar, great OEI performance for a piston twin east of the Rockies (I'd bet better than a 340), and comfort for our family with plenty of space and useful load.

 

[Norman]

I think OP would look really good in a Duke.

A budget buster for sure. AKA 'maintenance hog".

 

[Ted]

A budget buster for sure. AKA 'maintenance hog".

Duke: Speed and fuel burn of a 421A/B with space of a 340.

I really like Dukes in theory and appearance, but they need more powerful engines and more efficiency.

I'd love to fly one.

 

[wabower]

The annual Twin Cessna convention will be held in Wichita, KS in June. Many presenters, shops, modification companies, brokers, owners and others will be there. I will be there for part of it. Stop in and say howdy if you're around.

 

[Ted]

I'll be sorry to miss that gathering. Maybe next year.

 

[N747JB]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

Jeff, I have never owned a 340, but I have owned 2 414A's and a 421B. I will give you one bit of advice a man gave me 20 years ago. "Never put your family in a cabin class Cessna unless you intend on buying one"
A 340 is a bit small for my needs, the whole family is full size. I think if you don't need the extra space the operating costs between a 340 and a 414 would be fairly close the 340 is faster and smaller. The engines, systems, fuel burn etc are all pretty much the same. We owned a 310R and traded up to a 414A and my wife thought she had died and gone to heaven. The space with our then small kids made traveling very comfortable.
In regards to pressurization, I think between the 3 airplanes over 8 years I maybe spent $1500.00 on the pressurization systems. One thing is to avoid any airplanes that have allowed smoking! I know it sounds odd to a lot of us, but some people still smoke in airplanes that is tough on the outflow valves etc.

 

[JimG.]

In regards to pressurization, I think between the 3 airplanes over 8 years I maybe spent $1500.00 on the pressurization systems. One thing is to avoid any airplanes that have allowed smoking! I know it sounds odd to a lot of us, but some people still smoke in airplanes that is tough on the outflow valves etc.

I probably spent $1500 looking for the leaks in my cabin, because it just couldn't hold a 10,000 foot cabin at 20,000 feet…

Turned out the problem was I left the bleed valve for the air-conditioning on and it was going out with the condensation

That… and you have to run higher manifold pressures than I typically cruised at.

The “sweet spot” for mine was 31.5" at 18,000–20,000 were I got the best speed for the lowest fuel burned, and that just wasn't quite enough to hold the cabin under 10,000

 

[JimG.]

For me it was. Like I was saying, for my use, the added capability of the 340 just wasn't worth the increased cost.

As I learned…

Don't try to justify the costs for the added capability.

My ex-wife's father put it into perspective for me the 1st time he and I went on a trip together (years after I divorced his daughter) in it

He flew right seat in every airplane I ever owned over a 20+ year span of time

We were cruising along and I was telling him that I really couldn't justify the airplane and probably should've kept the Bonanza and never upgraded.

He asked me 2 questions…

Do you like it?

Can you afford it?

I answered yes to both questions, he looked at me and said with a smile on his face…

Then quit trying to justify it and just enjoy it

 

[KSMooniac]

The annual Twin Cessna convention will be held in Wichita, KS in June. Many presenters, shops, modification companies, brokers, owners and others will be there. I will be there for part of it. Stop in and say howdy if you're around.

Wayne, I'd very much like to meet you in person for a meal or beverage or combo if you're agreeable! I won't be part of the convention, but live in Wichita.

 

[wabower]

Hey Dude,

Are you getting around OK these days?

As I learned…

Don't try to justify the costs for the added capability.

My ex-wife's father put it into perspective for me the 1st time he and I went on a trip together (years after I divorced his daughter) in it

He flew right seat in every airplane I ever owned over a 20+ year span of time

We were cruising along and I was telling him that I really couldn't justify the airplane and probably should've kept the Bonanza and never upgraded.

He asked me 2 questions…

Do you like it?

Can you afford it?

I answered yes to both questions, he looked at me and said with a smile on his face…

Then quit trying to justify it and just enjoy it

 

[wabower]

Thanks, that would be great fun after all these years. I don't know the details at this point, but will let you know.

Wayne, I'd very much like to meet you in person for a meal or beverage or combo if you're agreeable! I won't be part of the convention, but live in Wichita.

 

[FlightofTwo]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

I currently have a Commander 114. Wondering if a light twin (310, Seneca) is a better alternative to the 340, etc.

Hi,

I currently fly a C-340A with the RAM VII Conversion, and just before that a Baron BE-55 with the Colemill Conversion, and if you want any info on the planes, I'd be happy to answer what I can. However, I just have to fly them to the maintenance shops, I don't have to write the checks for them. Initially I had quite a few maintenance issues with the 340, but it sat for 2 years prior, which is never a good thing. (In fact, after the experiences of that first year, I'll never agree to fly a plane that has sat like that again, a lesson I'd already learned but apparently not well enough, until this one cured me for good.) In the last year, since all the gremlins have been exorcised, it's been a good, solid, reliable airplane. Whether a light twin or the mid-sized pressurized twin would be better for you depends on your mission. How many people in your family and what size? What kind of range are most of your trips, and over what? They're all good airplanes, just depends on what you need/want.

I will say the fuel system in the Baron is a whole lot simpler than the fuel in the 340. Ours has five tanks, and you're constantly having to change tanks, transfer fuel, crossfeed to balance the load, etc. It's not a big deal, but it's sure not "turn it on and go"...

(Hi by the way. Long time lurker, first time POA poster).
Laura

 

[JimG.]

Hey Dude,

Are you getting around OK these days?

I'm getting around just fine…

Except that I fly a powered wheelchair now.

I'm living vicariously through you all

 

[Ted]

(Hi by the way. Long time lurker, first time POA poster).
Laura

Welcome!

 

[wabower]

Good to hear from you again, I wasn't sure how your situation turned out. Glad to see you posting here, you have lots of good stuff to share.

I'm getting around just fine…

Except that I fly a powered wheelchair now.

I'm living vicariously through you all

 

[JimG.]

Good to hear from you again, I wasn't sure how your situation turned out. Glad to see you posting here, you have lots of good stuff to share.

Time (and a trip to the Mayo Clinic last February) revealed that it wasn't Lou Gehrig's as the 4 “specialists” here kept insisting.

I've gone from “ this is going to kill you” to “this can kill you if you don't manage the complications”.

So… I'll be around for a long while looking up at the sky whenever an airplane flies over like a turkey in a rainstorm

 

[wjgesq]

As I learned…

Don't try to justify the costs for the added capability.

My ex-wife's father put it into perspective for me the 1st time he and I went on a trip together (years after I divorced his daughter) in it

He flew right seat in every airplane I ever owned over a 20+ year span of time

We were cruising along and I was telling him that I really couldn't justify the airplane and probably should've kept the Bonanza and never upgraded.

He asked me 2 questions…

Do you like it?

Can you afford it?

I answered yes to both questions, he looked at me and said with a smile on his face…

Then quit trying to justify it and just enjoy it

Not often you can reflect fondly of the ex wife's father. But I like the advice.

 

[Ted]

Not often you can reflect fondly of the ex wife's father. But I like the advice.

While I haven't spoken to my ex-fiancee's father since calling off the engagement, I not only reflect fondly on him but regard much of what he told me as the best advice I ever got.

 

[wjgesq]

I owned a 1978 with RAM 6 engines for about 5 years.

It's a great airplane for a small family. It's not a true 6 passenger airplane.

210 kn Cruise speed… 18,000–20,000 cruise altitude… 40 gallons per hour… and it will cost you a minimum of $5000/month just to own it in the 1st few years

what are you upgrading from?

What's the breakdown on the 5k a month?


I'd figured it would be less than half that unless you got really unlucky.


Tell us more.

 

[Henning]

Any Cessna 340 owner's/operator's out there? I own a single and thinking about moving to a twin for the family - wondering if the 340 is too much compared to a Baron or similar? Any thoughts/experiences good/bad/different?

Thanks,
Jeff

No, it's not too much, however you'll be best off to buy/lease a 310 for a year/100 hrs prior for insurance purposes. The 310, 340, 414, 421... Basically all the twin Cessnas fly the same and pretty much the same numbers/configurations, so the insurance industry likes the 310 as an intermediate into the cabin planes. However, the other option is hire a pro to fly with you your first year/50-100hrs and insure under his quals until you build the hours in type. It's also a hell of a safety hedge until you really everything down. 2 pilot cockpits have a lot of advantage.

Personally if it was me I'd buy a 421B and run it slow, easy, and lean over a 340 if I was looking for a family plane. The Wide Oval tube and emergency potty come at a relatively small premium in the grand scheme of things, and gives you considerably more capability when needed.

 

[Ted]

Personally if it was me I'd buy a 421B and run it slow, easy, and lean over a 340 if I was looking for a family plane. The Wide Oval tube and emergency potty come at a relatively small premium in the grand scheme of things, and gives you considerably more capability when needed.

A 421 takes a bigger hangar, has less reliable engines, burns more fuel for the same speed. Generally $200/hr more than a 340. There are very good reasons for picking a 340 over a 421.