Cessena TTx from FXE (Fort Lauderdale) to KTEB (New Jersey)

POH numbers are almost always unobtanium. If everything is perfect you can do it. But we know the world ain't perfect. Like saying the top speed of a sports car is 200mph. But can you ever really come close to that? Even on a drag strip it ain't happening.
 
Sinistar said:
@DVSKY - A few more things to consider that are independent of the aircraft choice.

Your scenario seems to exceed the option to drive it as a backup. So that kinda rules out a need for a car in each location that you occasionally use when bad wx.

But it doesn't rule out the need to have hangar if you get stuck there. I'm guessing hangar rent would not be cheap at places like TEB. But even at a place like Rapid City, a one night heated hangar in winter is $100. Just think if your plane is stuck there 2 weeks. Ouch.

That woyld then place a lot of pressure to go back and retrieve it.

Here is a thought. While you work thru PPL, since you can swing a TTx...start right now and find your local hangar! They can be a PITA to find. But you could always rent it out until you get your plane. One order goes like this:

Medical
Hangar wait lists or buy
Find a mechanic
Train (rental or your own)
Checkride
Buy plane if not already owned
IR
...
Click to expand...

This is an interesting, I didnt think about hanger issue. I will start looking into it. I already did medical, ground etc. When you say buy now, should I really finish my PPL in training in TTx? If so, wouldnt they not insure me? Looking online it says price is X for experienced pilots or price Y for low time pilots. I am not a pilot just a student.
 
You can definitely do this trip with a TTX or SR22T/TN but it will require a bit of patience (it will basically take 2 legs and ~5ish hours total). I have done it (NYC <> Naples FL) dozens of times, if not hundreds in a naturally aspirated SR22 and later an SR22TN. You are going to want some experience with longer cross-country flying, a lot of weather knowledge, an IFR ticket, some patience and the willingness to adjust (including post- or pre-pone) your trip if need be. You'll also be doing this as a bit of a challenge, not just a logistical step like getting on an airliner so you'd want to ensure you are prepared for that and preferably find that fun. I once flew my SR22 NA from Columbus OH to Antigua and back (2000NM each way) just because I didn't want to sit in a free first class airline seat so I'm a bit of a committed airline-avoider...

And, as others (eg Tantalum) have pointed out, most of these fast turbo singles can hit big numbers at FL250 (~220-230 KTAS) but very few owners take them into the flight levels. It's a very unforgiving and unpleasant environment up there unpressurized and most prefer to stay around FL180 +/- 1000 ft. At FL180, they all do about 200 KTAS so that's what I'd plan for roughly and then subtract an average 10-20 kts mean headwind component..
 
Last edited:
RudyP said:
You can definitely do this trip with a TTX or SR22T/TN but it will require a bit of patience (it will basically take 2 legs and ~5ish hours total). I have done it (NYC <> Naples FL) dozens of times, if not hundreds in a naturally aspirated SR22 and later an SR22TN. You are going to want some experience with longer cross-country flying, a lot of weather knowledge, an IFR ticket, some patience and the willingness to adjust (including post- or pre-pone) your trip if need be. You'll also be doing this as a bit of a challenge, not just a logistical step like getting on an airliner so you'd want to ensure you are prepared for that and preferably find that fun. I once flew my SR22 NA from Columbus OH to Antigua and back (2000NM each way) just because I didn't want to sit in a free first class airline seat so I'm a bit of a committed airline-avoider...

And, as others (eg Tantalum) have pointed out, most of these fast turbo singles can hit big numbers at FL250 (~220-230 KTAS) but very few owners take them into the flight levels. It's a very unforgiving and unpleasant environment up there unpressurized and most prefer to stay around FL180 +/- 1000 ft. At FL180, they all do about 200 KTAS so that's what I'd plan for roughly and then subtract an average 10-20 kts mean headwind component..
Click to expand...

Yeah 5 hours+ with stops for business would be tiring. I will probably stick to leisure flying.
 
I wouldn't want to see the insurance quote on a TTx for a low-time PP with no instrument ticket. They may not even bother quoting you until you've got more time and the IR.
 
In the SR22 we go MLB - JYO pretty often non-stop. But as other have said, there are days where you have to be flexible and adjust departure times. Biggest thing that seems to change our plans are when those huge cold fronts slide south and a squall line sets up across northern Florida essentially cutting off your route north. As a PPL the days you can go will be VERY limited, so plan on going right into the instrument rating. In the mean time you can always hire a CFII to go with you, awesome real world training opportunities!
 
SoonerAviator said:
I wouldn't want to see the insurance quote on a TTx for a low-time PP with no instrument ticket. They may not even bother quoting you until you've got more time and the IR.
Click to expand...

Thats what I was thinking, until it was suggested to buy the plane now, then my eyes opened wide with excitement, but I dont think its possible, I just put in a call to an insurance agent to see what they say. To be continued....
 
SethV said:
In the SR22 we go MLB - JYO pretty often non-stop. But as other have said, there are days where you have to be flexible and adjust departure times. Biggest thing that seems to change our plans are when those huge cold fronts slide south and a squall line sets up across northern Florida essentially cutting off your route north. As a PPL the days you can go will be VERY limited, so plan on going right into the instrument rating. In the mean time you can always hire a CFII to go with you, awesome real world training opportunities!
Click to expand...

I plan to do IFR right after, my plan was PPL in 172, then purchase TTx and do IFR training in it, but that plan is ever so changing with this new insurance development. And yes I plan to fly with CFI even after IR.
 
Racerx said:
POH numbers are almost always unobtanium. If everything is perfect you can do it. But we know the world ain't perfect. Like saying the top speed of a sports car is 200mph. But can you ever really come close to that? Even on a drag strip it ain't happening.
Click to expand...

That is not my experience. If you plan an XC in a well maintained airplane paying careful attention to the proper power settings for the planned density altitude and KTAS values. Load only fuel you need with 45 minute reserve. Do a weight and balance. Load the aircraft with the CG center or slightly rear as best you can considering take off and landing weight. And actually calculate inflight KTAS using calibrated airspeed and record the KTAS after climb, mid cruise and before descent, you will find the average KTAS is what is published in the POH.

Decide to pull the vent knob and open that little door on the right side to blow air around the floor in a Cessna, subtract 2 knots.

If you are the GA pilot flying an out of rig airplane with a run out engine, way too much fuel, at forward CG, you are going to get much less.
 
Last edited:
Update, was told I couldnt get a quote for TTx insurance because I am not a pilot yet. Said I need to hire a pilot and designate them. Guess thats what Mark Cuban does, hire full time pilots.

Guess I will have to wait until have PPL to purchase TTx for IFR training.
 
Clip4 said:
flying an out of rig airplane with a run out engine, way too much fuel, at forward CG, you are going to get much less
Click to expand...
So basically every rental flight school C172 ever
 
I have a hunch the time you want to buy (or should I say "insure") yourself for that TTx will be after the instrument rating. Hopefully someone will chime in here if that is bad advice. Having a IR prior and some hours prior to owning something like this should be notably cheaper.

You still have lots of other options. Here is just one to consider since you have the funds. It comes with some downsides but here goes:

First, find a training FBO that would want to rent out "your SR20".

Research legal agreements until you find something you are comfortable with. I would want wiggle room on instructors outside of their business and a quick out. Not sure how you would work MX but might want something outside their FBO as well and often they don't have their own MX shops.

Purchase a decent condition SR20. The key to the purchase is a A&P you trust. Probably don't want to use the future FBO's mechanic for this portion. You might very well pay this mechanic to fly to the plane once, a partial annual, couple hotel nights and food...yet you will be way cheaper than a surprise engine rebuild at $60k.

Enter into the agreement with the FBO flight school. You will compete with other students for rental time. But when they rent you are getting something back, ideally more than enough to cover the wear and tear and engine mx fund and offset your training costs.

Do your PPL and IR in this plane...they are darned nice planes by the way.

You will cringe every time the mechanic calls with a problem. Or when Jimmy spills a chocolate malt in the back seat. But just remember, your endgame is the TTx and this is getting you close but with way lower insurance and maybe offset some of the costs of ownership. So don't get attached to this plane.

Part of your agreement would be that they always hangar it so that solves that.

If it gets enough rental time they should also discount fuel around 15% or so. I learned about that just recently from a guy who flies his own SR22 about 300hrs per year. His busy Class D fuel rate was lower than our sleepy self serve or about $1.75gal cheaper than pulling up to the FBO.

I have seen one of these agreements blow up and one FBO and work like a charm just 100ft farther down the taxiway.

Eventually you sell this plane and upgrade to what you really want.

Just a thought or two.
 
@Sinistar did you just recommend a leaseback to a student pilot as a means of making enough money to buy a TTx outright?! Man, that's cold-blooded lol
 
donjohnston said:
I thought it was based on the Lancair which had foam core wings and fuselage.
Click to expand...
It has foam/fiberglass sandwich construction, and that sandwich is really thin. It sure doesn't have the minimum of 42 cubic feet of foam necessary to float a 2500-lb empty-weight airplane.

I maintained one for a few years. Been inside everything. It's not the typical foam-glass homebuilt.

The Cirrus is similar. The one that went down in the Pacific after the ferry pilot couldn't switch fuel tanks sank soon after ditching, even with fuel tanks full of either air---or fuel, which is lighter than water.
 
Last edited:
Sinistar said:
I have a hunch the time you want to buy (or should I say "insure") yourself for that TTx will be after the instrument rating. Hopefully someone will chime in here if that is bad advice. Having a IR prior and some hours prior to owning something like this should be notably cheaper.

You still have lots of other options. Here is just one to consider since you have the funds. It comes with some downsides but here goes:

First, find a training FBO that would want to rent out "your SR20".

Research legal agreements until you find something you are comfortable with. I would want wiggle room on instructors outside of their business and a quick out. Not sure how you would work MX but might want something outside their FBO as well and often they don't have their own MX shops.

Purchase a decent condition SR20. The key to the purchase is a A&P you trust. Probably don't want to use the future FBO's mechanic for this portion. You might very well pay this mechanic to fly to the plane once, a partial annual, couple hotel nights and food...yet you will be way cheaper than a surprise engine rebuild at $60k.

Enter into the agreement with the FBO flight school. You will compete with other students for rental time. But when they rent you are getting something back, ideally more than enough to cover the wear and tear and engine mx fund and offset your training costs.

Do your PPL and IR in this plane...they are darned nice planes by the way.

You will cringe every time the mechanic calls with a problem. Or when Jimmy spills a chocolate malt in the back seat. But just remember, your endgame is the TTx and this is getting you close but with way lower insurance and maybe offset some of the costs of ownership. So don't get attached to this plane.

Part of your agreement would be that they always hangar it so that solves that.

If it gets enough rental time they should also discount fuel around 15% or so. I learned about that just recently from a guy who flies his own SR22 about 300hrs per year. His busy Class D fuel rate was lower than our sleepy self serve or about $1.75gal cheaper than pulling up to the FBO.

I have seen one of these agreements blow up and one FBO and work like a charm just 100ft farther down the taxiway.

Eventually you sell this plane and upgrade to what you really want.

Just a thought or two.
Click to expand...

I love the idea but I wouldn't do it cause I don't want the headache. I am a lawyer, so I could draft this up but I would need to make an LLC, worry about proper collection of sales tax etc. Plus I don't want to get into legal battle if anyone is injured or there is damage. Yes I will have insurance but dec actions could be filed by the carrier alleging, material misrepresentation, coverage dispute, whatever, which would drag me through litigation. Insurance companies are evil, if I have to deal with them I'd rather it be by my own doing.
 
You can do that trip, it will take a little longer than you think, but quicker than driving and probably quicker than commercial when you add airport and security times. Make sure you get some experience under your belt first.

If insurance cost is an issue, you might not be able to afford it though.
 
I’ve flown an SR22 from FRG to F45 a few times. Always has been 2 legs. Usually a stop in Charleston or Myrtle Beach and they are 3.5 hour legs. Should be a little quicker in a TTx. Honestly, I really can’t stand more than 3 hour legs because that’s about the extent of my bladder. Takes about the same time to airline. Assuming arriving to the airport 2 hours before, going through security, etc.
 
Insurance companies aren't evil. The high performance single that were designed to fly high enough to get to the speeds you desire have a really bad track record. Add in low time pilot. It's a recipe they've seen before.
 
Racerx said:
Insurance companies aren't evil. The high performance single that were designed to fly high enough to get to the speeds you desire have a really bad track record. Add in low time pilot. It's a recipe they've seen before.
Click to expand...

They are evil, you get a fender bender not your fault they raise your rates, you use your uninsured motorist benefits they cancel you, they can find a mistake in your application, cancelled material misrepresentation. Ask you to attend an IME or EUO without providing proper notice, benefits denied failure to comply.
 
Someone here said it best, I forget who else I'd give the credit

Any insurance is a gamble, and the house always wins. The insured is betting they'll have a crash, get sick, etc., while the insurer is betting you won't. Those are good odds, insurance companies make plenty of money. I'd be perfectly happy foregoing insurance if my state / banks / etc., allowed it

Not evil, it's just business. Median health insurer CEO pay is $9 million, with 30 of those folks topping $30 million each. source In 17 years of adult life I've had zero need for medical or auto insurance. That's a lot of money I flushed down the toilet.


PS, I have no issue with it in principal, supply/demand. If people want the piece of mind that's fine. But I'd be perfectly happy living my live "insurance" free. I'm smart and healthy enough to take the risk.
 
Racerx said:
The high performance single that were designed to fly high enough to get to the speeds you desire have a really bad track record
Click to expand...
haha, I couldn't let this one go. What do you have in mind, Mooney, TTx, Cirrus, TBM? By volume I think the TBM does the worst as far as safety. TTx, Mooney fair very well.. as does Cirrus for the last decade or so

But rather than screwing everyone in rates maybe allow the insured to get into a better insurance bracket through X activities (certain training, etc.). My health insurance gives incentives for healthy activities, like a gym membership, for example
 
Tantalum said:
Someone here said it best, I forget who else I'd give the credit

Any insurance is a gamble, and the house always wins. The insured is betting they'll have a crash, get sick, etc., while the insurer is betting you won't. Those are good odds, insurance companies make plenty of money. I'd be perfectly happy foregoing insurance if my state / banks / etc., allowed it

Not evil, it's just business. Median health insurer CEO pay is $9 million, with 30 of those folks topping $30 million each. source In 17 years of adult life I've had zero need for medical or auto insurance. That's a lot of money I flushed down the toilet.


PS, I have no issue with it in principal, supply/demand. If people want the piece of mind that's fine. But I'd be perfectly happy living my live "insurance" free. I'm smart and healthy enough to take the risk.
Click to expand...

If the house always won, states wouldn’t have created laws requiring Insurance Guaranty Associations and Insurance Funds to cover buyers of insurance from companies that bet and lost.
 
You know, there's an old expression that is still very valid:

"Time to spare? Go by air!"

Critical business meetings = 'GetThereItus' and other dangers, inconveniences and complications. Flying for recreation is great. It's even better when you can combine it with Other Good Things (saving time, doing things you might not be able to do, etc.). But once you absolutely must be somewhere reliably on time...buy a ticket on someone else's big airplane and have them take on all the risks and worries and troubles. You will be happier, you will save money, and you will make it to your meeting.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top