Cessena TTx from FXE (Fort Lauderdale) to KTEB (New Jersey)

[DVSKY]

I am in the process of getting my PPL, already plan to do IFR right after. Always something I wanted to do, getting license just for fun the occasional $600 cheeseburger, but I am curious if I can actually make business use of it...

I fly every few weeks FLL to EWR for business. I am not very good with Foreflight as I just got it, but I was messing around with it and it seems FXE to TEB (which is 5 minutes from the office I have to get to) is only 4 Hours in TTx, is that possible? If so, is it doable? Meaning will the plane actually make this trip in 4 hours and can I actually do it when I am IFR rated? I would love that as commercial its 3 hour flight plus ground time, airtrain, walking etc, driving to office etc. Before all I said and one I am 6-8 hours in. Plus, it would be awesome to fly myself since I have a passion. I am aware it will be more expensive, but much more fun.

Any advise or thoughts from the pros would be much appreciated. Thanks everyone.

 

[GaryM]

I am in the process of getting my PPL, already plan to do IFR right after. Always something I wanted to do, getting license just for fun the occasional $600 cheeseburger, but I am curious if I can actually make business use of it...

I fly every few weeks FLL to EWR for business. I am not very good with Foreflight as I just got it, but I was messing around with it and it seems FXE to TEB (which is 5 minutes from the office I have to get to) is only 4 Hours in TTx, is that possible? If so, is it doable? Meaning will the plane actually make this trip in 4 hours and can I actually do it when I am IFR rated? I would love that as commercial its 3 hour flight plus ground time, airtrain, walking etc, driving to office etc. Before all I said and one I am 6-8 hours in. Plus, it would be awesome to fly myself since I have a passion. I am aware it will be more expensive, but much more fun.

Any advise or thoughts from the pros would be much appreciated. Thanks everyone.

You'll get more knowledgeable advice than what I can offer, but I'll say yes, it is doable. But it won't always be doable, even when IFR rated. You have to accept that there are flights you'll have to cancel. Finally, TEB has a reputation for being a bit challenging for piston singles; both to get a landing clearance, and especially to get a take-off clearance (depending on what runway EWR is using).

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Does the TTx go 210 knots and still have enough fuel?

Do you mind flying way offshore?

If not you’ll be adding 60 nm.

 

[DVSKY]

Does the TTx go 210 knots and still have enough fuel?

Do you mind flying way offshore?

If not you’ll be adding 60 nm.

I dont know if it has enough fuel, also dont know if 4 hours is correct I am Foreflight Novice.

I don't mind flying way offshore, I can swim, I know how to scuba dive lol.

 

[GaryM]

I don't mind flying way offshore, I can swim, I know how to scuba dive lol.

Me, too! And having spent a lot of time diving off the coast of NJ, much of the year you wouldn't want to be out there unless you are in a drysuit. Plotting a route to keep your single-engine plane within gliding distance of land might be well worth the extra flight time it adds.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

I dont know if it has enough fuel, also dont know if 4 hours is correct I am Foreflight Novice.

I don't mind flying way offshore, I can swim, I know how to scuba dive lol.

You can swim 145nm?

Im pretty sure it can’t based quick internet check.

I’m sure as a novice PP you shouldn’t be trying it.

 

[DVSKY]

Me, too! And having spent a lot of time diving off the coast of NJ, much of the year you wouldn't want to be out there unless you are in a drysuit. Plotting a route to keep your single-engine plane within gliding distance of land might be well worth the extra flight time it adds.

Wonder how much flight time that will add, if only I knew how to use Foreflight properly....

You can swim 145nm?

Im pretty sure it can’t based quick internet check.

I’m sure as a novice PP you shouldn’t be trying it.

Was kidding, plus the plane floats right?

 

[coma24]

I have used an airplane for business travel between NJ (not far from TEB) and many parts of FL for the past 14 years. I plan for 2 hours into North Carolina for gas (KHRJ, specifically), then another 2 hours to Orlando-ish. I route via SSI on the way down to minimize my offshore time. Here's the flight plan: https://skyvector.com/?ll=34.861895...chart=301&zoom=10&fpl=N0195 N07 KHRJ SSI KISM. Planning for around 195ktas, it's around 2 hours to NC, then just over 2 hours to Orlando.

FLL is a longer flight, just under 1000nm total (or 5 hours if you average 200kts). I'd highly recommend the gas/lunch stop in NC somewhere.

I've made good use of the IFR rating on 50%+ of the trips. Once you start talking about distances like that, there's a good chance of dealing with one or more weather systems along the way. Unless you have a considerable amount of flexibility in terms of timing (ie, adding 1-2 days or more to the trip each way), I wouldn't count on getting those long legs done without having an instrument rating in the back pocket.

Suffice to say, you're also going to wanna be a lot more familiar with XC flight planning and tools than you are now, but that will come soon enough.

 

[GaryM]

Wonder how much flight time that will add, if only I knew how to use Foreflight properly....

Was kidding, plus the plane floats right?

You can get a rough idea of the time by plotting a direct route, then dragging (with your finger) the route line from out in the ocean to a coastal airport or other over-land waypoint. You can do that multiple times. Or type KFXE KCRG KSAV KTEB into the flight planning box, for one route that keeps you over land (992 NM for that one).

The plane should float for awhile, but not indefinitely. Also, fixed-gear singles have a tendency to flip inverted in water landings when the wheels hit the water. So you could end up wet, disoriented, and injured in a water landing.

The TTx is a very capable aircraft, but a few tweaks to your planning will increase your safety margin. And at least at first, PLAN to fly commercial as your default, and switch to flying yourself when it looks like you'll have a very good weather window.

 

[donjohnston]

I used my 182RG to fly to the Cisco classes I taught (5 day classes). If you absolutely have to be there on time, you will need to consider having an airline ticket. Originally, I always purchased a "provisional" airline ticket in the event of weather (likely in the winter in Chicago where I was based) or an unexpected maintenance issue. Because on Monday morning I HAD to be in that classroom. Then the airlines got picky about things like cancellation fees and using the ticket on a different destination. So then I stopped flying myself to any class that I couldn't drive to in 10 hours.

I also made a number of trips up and down the east coast. Personally, TEB was convenient many times, but I used Morristown. TEB was just too darn expensive (at least it was when I was doing the trip).

I was never beyond gliding range of land. Maybe a couple times heading to NH on V1 between Sandy Hook and JFK when they kept me low. Wish I had the Velocity when I was making those trips. It's amazing what 50 extra knots per hour does to the trip time.

But anyway, yes, it's totally doable.

 

[JustinD]

You have to keep in mind you need to go the distance plus have sufficient reserves, especially when flying into the NY area I'd have a little extra padding.

Realistically doing this nonstop both directions is probably not likely year round, typically those max range are at much slower speeds than the max cruise speed. So you may be able to do it one direction, but the other direction with the wind it may not be possible all the time. and it will be at a slower speed than the max cruise speed so it will be a longer time. The advertised max range (1,250-1,270nm) is with a 170lb pilot at 55% power, which the book shows as 208ktas at FL250. The max cruise speed range is showing 85% power, 235ktas at FL250 for 825nm. A more realistic plan would be to plan to an airport roughly halfway then plan from that airport to TEB, add 30 minutes ground time at that stop and that would be a much more realistic expectation of how much time that trip is going to take plus it will keep you closer to land.

Just a quick run of foreflight on my end shows if you left right now and went direct at max range speed at FL250 it would take 5h25m and at max cruise speed it would be 4h55m. and that is only with a 14kt average headwind component. As above the max cruise speed is not possible for this length flight, so you would be somewhere between those two time figures. If you plan a stop halfway, add some flight time to the route and 30 minutes on the ground at that stop.

You have to realize too there are times you may need to plan your departure time around weather, such as convection in the summer, and there can be winter storms you won't be able to fly into/out of regardless of if you have your Instrument, and if the plane is a FIKI equipped TTx.

And lastly it will be more expensive than taking an airline, but that goes without saying, but that's not typically why we use our airplanes!

 

[DVSKY]

You can get a rough idea of the time by plotting a direct route, then dragging (with your finger) the route line from out in the ocean to a coastal airport or other over-land waypoint. You can do that multiple times. Or type KFXE KCRG KSAV KTEB into the flight planning box, for one route that keeps you over land (992 NM for that one).

The plane should float for awhile, but not indefinitely. Also, fixed-gear singles have a tendency to flip inverted in water landings when the wheels hit the water. So you could end up wet, disoriented, and injured in a water landing.

The TTx is a very capable aircraft, but a few tweaks to your planning will increase your safety margin. And at least at first, PLAN to fly commercial as your default, and switch to flying yourself when it looks like you'll have a very good weather window.

Awesome, so again I am bad at Foreflight since I just started. With this route its 4 hour 27 minutes. But thats with Cruise Speed of 235 kts which is what the advertised Cruise Speed of TTx is online. Is that realistic? I know whats published is not really the numbers, is it more like 210? 200? That will really be a deciding factor as we hit the 5 hour+ mark its no longer fun lol. First thoughts when getting license was just for fun but a goal is always nice. TTx is just the most I could afford since they are about 600K-ish it seems.

My backup plan was to keep a refundable airline ticket I would constantly change.

 

[DVSKY]

You have to keep in mind you need to go the distance plus have sufficient reserves, especially when flying into the NY area I'd have a little extra padding.

Realistically doing this nonstop both directions is probably not likely year round, typically those max range are at much slower speeds than the max cruise speed. So you may be able to do it one direction, but the other direction with the wind it may not be possible all the time. and it will be at a slower speed than the max cruise speed so it will be a longer time. The advertised max range (1,250-1,270nm) is with a 170lb pilot at 55% power, which the book shows as 208ktas at FL250. The max cruise speed range is showing 85% power, 235ktas at FL250 for 825nm. A more realistic plan would be to plan to an airport roughly halfway then plan from that airport to TEB, add 30 minutes ground time at that stop and that would be a much more realistic expectation of how much time that trip is going to take plus it will keep you closer to land.

Just a quick run of foreflight on my end shows if you left right now and went direct at max range speed at FL250 it would take 5h25m and at max cruise speed it would be 4h55m. and that is only with a 14kt average headwind component. As above the max cruise speed is not possible for this length flight, so you would be somewhere between those two time figures. If you plan a stop halfway, add some flight time to the route and 30 minutes on the ground at that stop.

You have to realize too there are times you may need to plan your departure time around weather, such as convection in the summer, and there can be winter storms you won't be able to fly into/out of regardless of if you have your Instrument, and if the plane is a FIKI equipped TTx.

And lastly it will be more expensive than taking an airline, but that goes without saying, but that's not typically why we use our airplanes!

Thanks for this answer, very insightful. Only reason I was thinking TTx over SR22 was because of speed and non-stop option, but based on this it seems like stop half way is inevitable. Also, it seems like the speeds are comparable. The TTx wouldnt be much faster. Cant say how much exactly though.

 

[donjohnston]

Awesome, so again I am bad at Foreflight since I just started. With this route its 4 hour 27 minutes. But thats with Cruise Speed of 235 kts which is what the advertised Cruise Speed of TTx is online. Is that realistic? I know whats published is not really the numbers, is it more like 210? 200? That will really be a deciding factor as we hit the 5 hour+ mark its no longer fun lol. First thoughts when getting license was just for fun but a goal is always nice. TTx is just the most I could afford since they are about 600K-ish it seems.

My backup plan was to keep a refundable airline ticket I would constantly change.

Looking at about a dozen TTx flights on flightaware, that would seem to be at the very high end. But maybe most are running LOP at economy power settings. If it were me, I would plan on around 210kts max. My logic is it's better to plan low and get a pleasant surprise than the opposite.

Another thing is that 4 hours non-stop in a plane can be tiring. At least it was in the 182. Maybe the TTx is better. I know the Velocity was. But even then, it's a bit draining. O2 helps a lot with that. So if it were me, I'd definitely want some O2 available even if I was staying below 10,000'.

 

[MonkeyClaw]

I would not flight plan 235 kts in a TTX. You could probably do 200 pretty consistently, although I usually plan 185. I don't see a reason to push it and cylinders are expensive. I've flown from the Philly area to Florida many times. If it's just you, and the winds are nonexistent or on the tail, you can do ~1000nm. If you have a passenger, enjoy the flight and make a fuel/potty stop. The one time I had 3 passengers (plus myself) and golf bags, I couldn't carry enough fuel for more than about 3 or so hours. If you're that full, you're going to want to stop after a couple of hours anyway because someone will need to use the bathroom. Is also depends on how high you want to go.

Then there's weather, maintenance, etc. The idea of a refundable ticket is good. I often found that if I couldn't go, the airlines were delayed also. As a new pilot, you'll want to avoid flying in crappy weather as much as possible.

 

[Captain Sweet T]

Get familiar with foreflight. It will be one of your best planning tools, and you will learn a ton with it. Also, it's easy to learn so you wont get frustrated with it. There are a ton of tutorials but it is pretty intuitive.

 

[Dana]

Wonder how much flight time that will add, if only I knew how to use Foreflight properly....

You know people planned flights for 100 years before Foreflight existed, right?

I don't know about speeds and times, but the trip is certainly doable... even VFR... but even IFR the weather will sometimes intrude, so you need a backup (alternate transportation or the ability to be several days late).

 

[Sinistar]

This really seems to be a Meridian or TBM route if for business and a high dispatch us desired. But add $2M.

I also wonder if one of the 210 variants would be a competitor for the SR22 or TTx. More fuel. More payload. That guy flying his 210 in the Bravo w/o clearance was knocking off 2 or 3 states every trip. Wow!

Not trying to diss the TTx...that's the plane that would convert me to the low wing side.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

Awesome, so again I am bad at Foreflight since I just started. With this route its 4 hour 27 minutes. But thats with Cruise Speed of 235 kts which is what the advertised Cruise Speed of TTx is online. Is that realistic? I know whats published is not really the numbers, is it more like 210? 200? That will really be a deciding factor as we hit the 5 hour+ mark its no longer fun lol. First thoughts when getting license was just for fun but a goal is always nice. TTx is just the most I could afford since they are about 600K-ish it seems.

My backup plan was to keep a refundable airline ticket I would constantly change.

I don’t know any planes that get book numbers, which are from a development plane (before they add the various antennas) and under ideal conditions . The question is what speed at what fuel burn. I would guess 210@20gph would be a reasonable target, but you’ll need to be high…have you flown at 25,000’ using an oxygen mask? Some find it very tiring. Oh yeah, and you’ll need to get your IR.

 

[Aye Effaar]

You've received a lot of good advice on flight planning, but I'd like to echo those who suggested you plan to arrive at an airport other than TEB. I earned my PPL at Teterboro in 2000 time-frame back when it was GA friendly. I joined a flyingclub that was hosted there and spent quite a bit of time in and out of the airport. TEB became increasingly unfriendly towards GA, especially post September 11th. The club eventually moved their aircraft to an alternate home base.

If you're arriving from the South, you could plan to use Linden (LDJ). It's a great GA airport just 6-miles SW of Newark Liberty. It has excellent public transportation to/from NYC and surrounding area. If the weather drops below 600-2 and you need a nearby precision approach, you can switch over to the ILS at Morristown (KMMU).

 

[JustinD]

I don’t know any planes that get book numbers, which are from a development plane (before they add the various antennas) and under ideal conditions ..

that’s a fairly blanket statement. I’ve been fortunate that my 182 does consistently 5 knots better than the book for any given power setting at about .3-.5gph Lower burn than any given setting in the book when flying it per the book procedures even when fully loaded

I’ve flown many planes that have beaten the book, but have also flown many planes that couldn’t get the book numbers on its best day

 

[Tantalum]

the TTx...that's the plane that would convert me to the low wing side

It's an amazing piece of machinery. I love the Cirri but the TTx was in many ways superior. I hate Vernier knobs but the avionics and overall cabin would make up for that, for me at least. The ability to dial in the exact temperature you want is just that extra touch of "wow, this is nice" vs the 1995 GMC climate knobs. It's fast, and, allegedly built to 9+G standards.

210

The only high wing I've flown that not only did I note hate, I actually quite enjoyed it! This would be the high wing to bring me to the high wing side, haha!

I know how to scuba dive lol

You will fly with your scuba tank? I think that was probably tongue in cheek your quote, but, not to be the "dad" of the group but overwater flying should be taken far more seriously than most people do. That means life raft and PLB at a minimum. "If it's my time it's my time" is very easy to say behind a keyboard.. but when you're 100 miles from shore and your engine is gagging you're going to wish you had a PLB, at a minimum

There was a plane here a few years ago flying to AVX with their instructor.. that's not that far offshore, and people say "but there are boats everywhere!" and often fly that route in dubious machinery at low altitudes.. well they disappeared:

https://fox5sandiego.com/news/stude...-after-plane-disappears-near-catalina-island/

 

[Racerx]

I won't even fly across Lake Michigan. I'll take the longer scenic route. Doesn't save that much. But you do you.

 

[MooneyDriver78]

that’s a fairly blanket statement. I’ve been fortunate that my 182 does consistently 5 knots better than the book for any given power setting at about .3-.5gph Lower burn than any given setting in the book when flying it per the book procedures even when fully loaded

They probably didn’t update performance tables as they updated the 182 over the years, ie improved aerodynamics,etc.

 

[DVSKY]

Thanks everyone for the replies. I think FL to NJ would not be feasible for business in TTx, Ill stick to commercial. Id love a TBM or Meridan but I cant afford them. Even if I could the price, I couldn't afford the insurance or maintenance. Love the TTx anyway I am going to be on the look out for one.

Any insight on what to look for? Any option I definitely NEED? Price point? I will finish PPL in C172, but if I find a good priced TTx I still want to buy it since I dont see too many.

 

[JustinD]

You're going to have a hard time finding a TTx at a reasonable price, especially in todays market as they technically didnt make the "TTx" for very long. You'd have more luck expanding your search to include the Columbia 400 which i believe is the same thing? Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

If you really want that type of speed a Mooney Acclaim will get you above that slightly, but with a retract, an SR22T will also get you a cruise above 210kts. All will be roughly the same price point on the used market for any given year at this point.

 

[DVSKY]

You're going to have a hard time finding a TTx at a reasonable price, especially in todays market as they technically didnt make the "TTx" for very long. You'd have more luck expanding your search to include the Columbia 400 which i believe is the same thing? Someone correct me if I'm wrong there.

If you really want that type of speed a Mooney Acclaim will get you above that slightly, but with a retract, an SR22T will also get you a cruise above 210kts. All will be roughly the same price point on the used market for any given year at this point.

Whats reasonable? Lol. I am not a fan of SR22 as I've heard some negative comments about the frame and such. But I guess I can do some research on it.

 

[Tantalum]

an SR22T will also get you a cruise above 210kts

just a point on this.. it will do that, but only up high

Operating up high is a different environment, and with a non pressurized plane and little canula tubes up your nose, or a full on mask tied to your face, it's not always the most fun. The airplane, in my experience, also flies "best" in the 16K to 17K range, which will see you in the 190 to upper 190 range, but not in that 210 to 215 spot unless you're in the flight levels - which is a long climb, a long way down, and a lonely environment for a single engine unpressurized piston

The OP is really looking for a turbine. Or, if willing to go experimental and has a $600K budget, then any of the Velocities would be great choices.. fast, fuel efficient, and experimental so you won't be forced to color within the lines set by 1940s era technology and regulations.

 

[Tantalum]

*follow up - I'd be curious if you polled turbo drivers how many of them routinely fly in the FL220 to FL250 range. I would bet a very small percentage routinely go that high

 

[DVSKY]

*follow up - I'd be curious if you polled turbo drivers how many of them routinely fly in the FL220 to FL250 range. I would bet a very small percentage routinely go that high

Interesting so you mean like SR22 and SR22T would be about the same cruise speed until you are high up on oxygen.

 

[Tantalum]

Interesting so you mean like SR22 and SR22T would be about the same cruise speed until you are high up on oxygen.

Turbos really come into play once you're over 8,000 or so.. if you compare the performance tables between a naturally aspirated or turbo or turbo normalized Cirri you'll see the really big improvements in speed manifest once you're north of 10,000 ft. This is because the air gets thinner but the engine is still able to make full power as it does at sea level.. so your true airspeed increases. And the air getting thinner is not linear..

I used to typically cruise around 16,000 ft and that would put me in the 195 knot or so range

 

[Tantalum]

At 5K an NA or SR22T are going to be within 5 or 10 knots of each other.. in an TN will be almost identical

 

[DVSKY]

Off topic newbie question...So you are taught to say your airplane type ie Skyhawk123AB instead of Cessna123AB. But what do you do for TTx? TTx123AB is a lot.

 

[Tantalum]

Off topic newbie question...So you are taught to say your airplane type ie Skyhawk123AB instead of Cessna123AB. But what do you do for TTx? TTx123AB is a lot.

I've heard 'Columbia' a few times on the radio.. the 400 and TTx are nearly identical

 

[FormerHangie]

just a point on this.. it will do that, but only up high

Operating up high is a different environment, and with a non pressurized plane and little canula tubes up your nose, or a full on mask tied to your face, it's not always the most fun. The airplane, in my experience, also flies "best" in the 16K to 17K range, which will see you in the 190 to upper 190 range, but not in that 210 to 215 spot unless you're in the flight levels - which is a long climb, a long way down, and a lonely environment for a single engine unpressurized piston

The OP is really looking for a turbine. Or, if willing to go experimental and has a $600K budget, then any of the Velocities would be great choices.. fast, fuel efficient, and experimental so you won't be forced to color within the lines set by 1940s era technology and regulations.

You also have to consider the wind. At those altitudes, the winds are usually favorable in one direction and unfavorable in the other. Add to that all the time you spend climbing to altitude, and that big advertised cruise speed is not all what it seems.

Every once in a while, we get a new pilot that is thinking about regularly doing these long legs. These sorts of airplanes are in their sweet spots in legs of 150 - 650 nm. Doing 2000 nm round trips is going to wear on you. There will be blue sky days where you wonder why everyone doesn't fly themselves, and then you're going to have rotten weather days where you're either going to have to cancel, or you're going to dread getting in the airplane. If you were needing to go from one smaller city to another, where neither has airline service, I could see wanting to do this, but honestly, in your case, the airlines are the way to go.

 

[Sinistar]

Off topic newbie question...So you are taught to say your airplane type ie Skyhawk123AB instead of Cessna123AB. But what do you do for TTx? TTx123AB is a lot.

Corvallis 123 alpha Bravo?

 

[Dan Thomas]

Was kidding, plus the plane floats right?

It will sink as soon as some water gets into it. There is very little foam in those airplanes; they're mostly fiberglass, and the empty weight is around 2500 pounds. It ain't gonna float for long.

 

[donjohnston]

If it’s anything like a Velocity, it will float until you tow it ashore.

 

[Sinistar]

@DVSKY - A few more things to consider that are independent of the aircraft choice.

Your scenario seems to exceed the option to drive it as a backup. So that kinda rules out a need for a car in each location that you occasionally use when bad wx.

But it doesn't rule out the need to have hangar if you get stuck there. I'm guessing hangar rent would not be cheap at places like TEB. But even at a place like Rapid City, a one night heated hangar in winter is $100. Just think if your plane is stuck there 2 weeks. Ouch.

That woyld then place a lot of pressure to go back and retrieve it.

Here is a thought. While you work thru PPL, since you can swing a TTx...start right now and find your local hangar! They can be a PITA to find. But you could always rent it out until you get your plane. One order goes like this:

Medical
Hangar wait lists or buy
Find a mechanic
Train (rental or your own)
Checkride
Buy plane if not already owned
IR
...

 

[Clip4]

Awesome, so again I am bad at Foreflight since I just started. With this route its 4 hour 27 minutes. But thats with Cruise Speed of 235 kts which is what the advertised Cruise Speed of TTx is online. Is that realistic? I know whats published is not really the numbers, is it more like 210? 200? That will really be a deciding factor as we hit the 5 hour+ mark its no longer fun lol. First thoughts when getting license was just for fun but a goal is always nice. TTx is just the most I could afford since they are about 600K-ish it seems.

My backup plan was to keep a refundable airline ticket I would constantly change.

It’s realistic until you run out of money replacing cylinders.