Centering The Ball

Aeric

Aeric

Line Up and Wait
Joined
Feb 9, 2012
Messages
639
Location
SF Bay Area (PAO)
Display Name
Display name:
Aeric
After a nice short flight Saturday, I decided to do an extra few trips around the Patch. We have right traffic here and on one of my circuits turning crosswind I noticed the ball a little to the left of center (I know the dangers of a skid, but it was just a little off). Since I was at only 20-25 degrees bank, I simply applied a bit more right aileron and got the ball right back into it's cage and I didn't exceed 30 degrees of bank. I do this every now and then, whether I'm in a slight slip or skid. Mind you, I'm very cognizant of the dangers of a skid and the inefficiency of a slip and I do try my best to keep my turns as coordinated as a low-time pilot such as myself can. Is fine-tuning the coordination of a turn with ailerons considered bad form? I ask because often I find it a little easier to fine-center the ball with ailerons rather than the rudder. Again, these are very minor corrections and I guess I'm just kind of blending aileron movements with rudder movements to keep the turns nicely coordinated.
 
If you were my student, I'd want you to establish the bank angle necessary to execute the planned turn and make the necessary correction with rudder.

Aeric said:
After a nice short flight Saturday, I decided to do an extra few trips around the Patch. We have right traffic here and on one of my circuits turning crosswind I noticed the ball a little to the left of center (I know the dangers of a skid, but it was just a little off). Since I was at only 20-25 degrees bank, I simply applied a bit more right aileron and got the ball right back into it's cage and I didn't exceed 30 degrees of bank. I do this every now and then, whether I'm in a slight slip or skid. Mind you, I'm very cognizant of the dangers of a skid and the inefficiency of a slip and I do try my best to keep my turns as coordinated as a low-time pilot such as myself can. Is fine-tuning the coordination of a turn with ailerons considered bad form? I ask because often I find it a little easier to fine-center the ball with ailerons rather than the rudder. Again, these are very minor corrections and I guess I'm just kind of blending aileron movements with rudder movements to keep the turns nicely coordinated.
Click to expand...
 
Aeric said:
Is fine-tuning the coordination of a turn with ailerons considered bad form? I ask because often I find it a little easier to fine-center the ball with ailerons rather than the rudder.
Click to expand...

Whatever keeps you from drilling a hole in the ground on a fairly regular basis. :) But IMO, the rudder should be considered a slave to the ailerons, and if you're uncoordinated, you should adjust the rudder, not the aileron. I happen to think what you're describing is not good technique. But seriously, try to get in the habit of learning to FEEL coordination rather than looking for it in the indication of the skid ball. Skid balls are flawed, and don't always indicate properly while you're rolling. Your ass in the seat is a much better slip/skid indicator. :) Pay attention to it so you can learn to fly more with your eyeballs outside the cockpit where they belong. If you don't know what I mean by feeling your ass in the seat, ask your instructor. If he/she can't describe it, then it might be time to find an older, more experienced instructor. :D
 
wabower said:
If you were my student, I'd want you to establish the bank angle necessary to execute the planned turn and make the necessary correction with rudder.
Click to expand...

This.

You have to be skidding really really bad, AND stall for it to be deadly. Get the bank where you want then look down to see if the ball is where you want. Then glance at it every so often to see if it's staying there.
 
That seems completely impossible to my brain...it's almost reflex for me to adjust bank/turning with rudder.
 
RoscoeT said:
Whatever keeps you from drilling a hole in the ground on a fairly regular basis. :) But IMO, the rudder should be considered a slave to the ailerons, and if you're uncoordinated, you should adjust the rudder, not the aileron. I happen to think what you're describing is not good technique. But seriously, try to get in the habit of learning to FEEL coordination rather than looking for it in the indication of the skid ball. Skid balls are flawed, and don't always indicate properly while you're rolling. Your ass in the seat is a much better slip/skid indicator. :) Pay attention to it so you can learn to fly more with your eyeballs outside the cockpit where they belong. If you don't know what I mean by feeling your ass in the seat, ask your instructor. If he/she can't describe it, then it might be time to find an older, more experienced instructor. :D
Click to expand...
Thanks for the responses. I was taught very early on about the feel of coordination by my CFI. I guess I was slipping ever so slightly into a bad habit and I will correct that. The advice regarding the rudder being a slave to the ailerons makes perfect sense when bank angle is concerned. And bank angle is critical in more ways than one. I'll remember these bits of advice given. After all, I will always really be a student. :wink2:
 
You want to be in the habit of correcting low speed bank with rudder.
 
Skidding is not dangerous, nor is slipping a concern. The airplane will not simply explode on you, or fall out from under you, if the ball isn't in the center.

Coordinate your use of the controls to make the airplane do what you want. Thank of the rudder as your "quality" control; it's there to keep the ball in the center for "coordinated" flight, although the truth is that you can put the rudder where ever you need it to make the airplane fly the way you want. You do train to do slips to landings, don't you?

Step on the ball. It's really that simple.
 
DouglasBader said:
Skidding is not dangerous, nor is slipping a concern. The airplane will not simply explode on you, or fall out from under you, if the ball isn't in the center.
Click to expand...

Boy. I would like to take you for a ride in a Citabria sometime. Get it into a skidding, descending low-speed turn and see what happens.

You won't do it again.

Airplanes like 172s can give a false sense of invulnerability.

Dan
 
Boy. I would like to take you for a ride in a Citabria sometime. Get it into a skidding, descending low-speed turn and see what happens.

You won't do it again.

Airplanes like 172s can give a false sense of invulnerability.
Click to expand...
No different for a Citabria. While I do like the 172 as much as the next person, my flying experience is a little more broad than that, and it doesn't change what I said. Skidding an airplane is not dangerous. Slipping an airplane is not dangerous.

Failing to maintain control over the aircraft is dangerous, but this is always a given.

When I first started flying ag, which was right after I graduated high school, I worked for an operator that kept me tightly under his thumb. We didn't have GPS then; everything used a flagger on the ground or an automatic flagman off the wing. To cut down on the flags we used, we flew most of our ag work in formation; it made for nice spacing, and meant that three airplanes could do the same work with only one dispensing flags; we used a third the flags.

In a typical turn at 75' or a hundred feet, we banked steeply,and sometimes, often even, right to the buffet. Doing that in formation, on the wing of another airplane, it meant a lot of rudder work, and a lot of experimentation dealing with the other guy's wake. I thought I had a good handle on the concepts of slips and skids and stalls and spins, when I went to work, but I found I was terrified of ending up in a spin. One day, my boss, a crusty old guy who had seen far more air than I'd seen years, explained to me that I wouldn't be falling out of the sky under his tutelage.

The airplane had inertia, he correctly pointed out, and even a stall buffet was something I'd fly through and keep on moving; the airplane wasn't going to suddenly drop out of the sky, and it didn't. He also pointed out that in my turns I was carrying too much bottom rudder; hat I needed, he showed me, was top rudder. I began an experience I've had throughout my career...learning all over again. Just when I thought I had it pegged, the learning was just getting started.

The airplane will not fall out of the sky siply because you skid it, any more than because you slip it. Keep flying the airplane, and you'll be fine.

Not a fan of Michael Bay, eh?
Click to expand...

I don't know. What kind of music does he play?
 
Dan Thomas said:
Boy. I would like to take you for a ride in a Citabria sometime. Get it into a skidding, descending low-speed turn and see what happens.

Dan
Click to expand...

I can skid the ever loving crap out of a Citabria in the pattern and feel just fine about it. Just don't stall...
 
Correcting with ailerons rather than rudder is going to be a real issue when you start doing steep turns. If your in a 45 degree bank and are uncoordinated, are you going to increase your bank to 50-60 degrees?
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
You only have one?
Click to expand...

When I got married, I went from me and my (male) dog to me, my dog, my new wife, three new step-daughters, and a couple of female cats. I used to tell my dog that the leg to ball ratio in my household was all messed up :D
 
lostpilot28 said:
LOL...talk about thread drift! I need to come back here more often...I'm missing out.

As to the OP, I agree with Doug's reply. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

In this case all is forgiven since the OP knows I am just poking fun. Oh and he is a damned good pilot, and to know that means I have been in his airplane more than once.
 
Aeric said:
Is fine-tuning the coordination of a turn with ailerons considered bad form? I ask because often I find it a little easier to fine-center the ball with ailerons rather than the rudder. Again, these are very minor corrections and I guess I'm just kind of blending aileron movements with rudder movements to keep the turns nicely coordinated.
Click to expand...
OK, I'm gonna get this thread back on track with a commentary that may provide a little different tack on the rudder/aileron co-ordination technique.

Everyone's comments about rudder usage is tried & true & correct.

Rudder Trumps Aileron. Developing rudder control in turns, especially low speed turns, will help hard-wire you to instinctively prevent the stall/spin set-up.

However,...the ultimate goal is to learn to (get the feel of) exactly, precisely the right amount of each control input for an infinitely variable and changing condition; speed, weight, DA, pilot perception & reaction, etc, etc, etc.

So, ..as you gain experience and feel, which it seems you are, I think it is a good thing to begin to fine-tune,.. I said fine tune your feel for aileron vs rudder input.

Step on the ball has always been the mantra for initial pilots learning to keep the rudder and aileron co-ordinated; stepping on the ball is easy to remember and works really well 99% of the time.

Well, I dunno if it's 99% or not, but try this:

When you're practicing unusual attitudes under the hood, and you (your instructor gets you) into a steeep bank, maybe 60 plus degrees, with aileron only, so that the ball is waay down inside the turn, and you step on that ball ? Guess what happens?

Anyway, it is advancing your skills to learn different ways to correct. Get away from the Rote, and move on to Correlation.:D
 
FlySince9 said:
Correcting with ailerons rather than rudder is going to be a real issue when you start doing steep turns. If your in a 45 degree bank and are uncoordinated, are you going to increase your bank to 50-60 degrees?
Click to expand...
Nope, like Bush 41 would say "wouldn't be prudent". But like I was saying, it was sort of a fine-tuning in shallow turns but I can see that rudder action takes precedence over aileron when it comes to accurate coordination.
Funny you mention steep turns. Early on in training when doing the steeps, I would always push it right up to 60 degrees, loved that push into the seat. I was quite startled the first time I hit my wake, my instructor just cooly said "that's good, it's what you want to happen". :D
 
Aeric said:
Funny you mention steep turns. Early on in training when doing the steeps, I would always push it right up to 60 degrees, loved that push into the seat. I was quite startled the first time I hit my wake, my instructor just cooly said "that's good, it's what you want to happen". :D
Click to expand...

I did that with a female CFI. Her comment - "All guys love steep turns."
 
nosehair said:
OK, I'm gonna get this thread back on track with a commentary that may provide a little different tack on the rudder/aileron co-ordination technique.

Everyone's comments about rudder usage is tried & true & correct.

Rudder Trumps Aileron. Developing rudder control in turns, especially low speed turns, will help hard-wire you to instinctively prevent the stall/spin set-up.

However,...the ultimate goal is to learn to (get the feel of) exactly, precisely the right amount of each control input for an infinitely variable and changing condition; speed, weight, DA, pilot perception & reaction, etc, etc, etc.

So, ..as you gain experience and feel, which it seems you are, I think it is a good thing to begin to fine-tune,.. I said fine tune your feel for aileron vs rudder input.

Step on the ball has always been the mantra for initial pilots learning to keep the rudder and aileron co-ordinated; stepping on the ball is easy to remember and works really well 99% of the time.

Well, I dunno if it's 99% or not, but try this:

When you're practicing unusual attitudes under the hood, and you (your instructor gets you) into a steeep bank, maybe 60 plus degrees, with aileron only, so that the ball is waay down inside the turn, and you step on that ball ? Guess what happens?

Anyway, it is advancing your skills to learn different ways to correct. Get away from the Rote, and move on to Correlation.:D
Click to expand...

I see where you're going with this, but turning using aileron-only will put the nose high relative to the turn and stepping on the ball will put the nose back level.
 
Jaybird180 said:
I see where you're going with this, but turning using aileron-only will put the nose high relative to the turn and stepping on the ball will put the nose back level.
Click to expand...
Stepping on the ball in a very steep bank will push the nose down thru level as the wings go thru 90 degrees.
Also, the nose may not be high in this steep bank attitude - you don't know how it got there.

Seriously, use aileron-only when recovering from an unknown instrument attitude: "Pull' the ball back towards center with the yoke/stick. You will always be rolling the wings back to level.
Pushing on the rudder - in an unknown instrument attitude - may push the nose down and further increase bank.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top