Can we talk about checklists

azpilot

azpilot

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azpilot
This might be one of those discussions that starts an argument, I guess we'll find out. How much does everyone here use checklists?

When I was flying the 172, I always used the checklists, and I was finally starting to get to the point where I could flow things it quickly and efficiently. I knew the checklist, but I still followed it.

I got checked out in an Archer today. In some ways, I felt completely lost. The FBO I am flying at has slightly different procedures on some things that they do, which I am totally fine with. But when it comes to the checklist, I feel like I am back to that pre-solo stage in my training, where I am still trying to figure out how to wipe my nose (to use a metaphor).

For those of you that fly the same airplane all the time, do you ever get to the point where you stop using a checklist? Or do you keep using it, even when you know it inside and out, backwards and forwards.

For those of you that fly different airplanes frequently, do you still use checklists? Do you ever get to a point where you just 'know' what you are doing?

I know that cars and airplanes aren't the same, but I am going to compare them anyway. Do you ever get to the point where you can just hop in an airplane and fly it (after pre-flight of course) because you are just so familiar with it, like you do with a car?

Flying the Archer was pretty simple today. All of the other stuff? I need to work on that.
 
I use a flow checklist in the small GA stuff. Run-up I back up with the physical checklist. Like for the 172 I start down at the fuel selector, work my way up, then left across the panel, verifying switch positions for that phase of flight. My arriving at the airport checklist is basically the GUMPS acronym.
 
Flow then checklist. Stuff included in checklist are "killer" items like fuel selector, fuel pump, mixture, etc. Flows should NEVER take the place of a checklist. They should be used hand in hand.
 
My airplane, actually a glider, I have a critical checklist on the instrument panel that I use. It is important things like "canopy latched shut","controls free and correct" or things I easily forget like "Flight Recorder turned on" there are only about 4 things on it.

for power airplanes at a minimum I always do CIGAR TIP.
Controls
Instruments
Gas
Angle of Flaps.
Run-up
Trip
Interior
Pattern

Brian
 
Don't use checklists = bust your check ride. People who are far smarter than I am suggest the usage of checklists. Complacency kills. Get into a routine and pretty soon a guy will start skipping stuff, then forgetting about it altogether. Then there's a smoking hole in the ground. Or a gear-up landing. Etc.
 
azpilot said:
This might be one of those discussions that starts an argument, I guess we'll find out. How much does everyone here use checklists?

When I was flying the 172, I always used the checklists, and I was finally starting to get to the point where I could flow things it quickly and efficiently. I knew the checklist, but I still followed it.

I got checked out in an Archer today. In some ways, I felt completely lost. The FBO I am flying at has slightly different procedures on some things that they do, which I am totally fine with. But when it comes to the checklist, I feel like I am back to that pre-solo stage in my training, where I am still trying to figure out how to wipe my nose (to use a metaphor).

For those of you that fly the same airplane all the time, do you ever get to the point where you stop using a checklist? Or do you keep using it, even when you know it inside and out, backwards and forwards.

For those of you that fly different airplanes frequently, do you still use checklists? Do you ever get to a point where you just 'know' what you are doing?

I know that cars and airplanes aren't the same, but I am going to compare them anyway. Do you ever get to the point where you can just hop in an airplane and fly it (after pre-flight of course) because you are just so familiar with it, like you do with a car?

Flying the Archer was pretty simple today. All of the other stuff? I need to work on that.
Click to expand...

You always do your flow

Follow it up with a checklist.

Checklist is NOT a do list.

Flow then checklist, it's what I do at work and what in on my own plane.

Also a good checklist should be a half piece (long wise) of paper, double sided and laminated. Not a small novel
 
In a CAF P-51 nah what could go wrong. Read somewhere that the Russian airforce did everything by memorized flows. No written checklists. Checklists are good but don't replace independent thought and being in the present. Those two things are hard so people try to find a checklist that works instead.
 
It depends on how much you are flying and how familiar you are with the airplane. If you've been out of the cockpit for a while, break out the checklist. If you are flying often and are familiar, then coming up with a good habit pattern can replace breaking out the checklist every time. The habit pattern should be some form of memory aid that includes the checklist items.
 
jordane93 said:
Flow then checklist. Stuff included in checklist are "killer" items like fuel selector, fuel pump, mixture, etc. Flows should NEVER take the place of a checklist. They should be used hand in hand.
Click to expand...

This. Trust but verify applies.
 
I have an instructional video explaining how to use checklists. But besides that I do try to use (or post-reference) them often.
 
Lachlan said:
Don't use checklists = bust your check ride. People who are far smarter than I am suggest the usage of checklists. Complacency kills. Get into a routine and pretty soon a guy will start skipping stuff, then forgetting about it altogether. Then there's a smoking hole in the ground. Or a gear-up landing. Etc.
Click to expand...

Got to agree with that. I almost blew my checkride by failing to use landing checklist. I use them all the time every time now.
 
I created my own checklist from the POH of aircraft that I fly. First I do a flow then use the checklist for training on IFR rating.
 
Thanks. Seems to have been a glitch in working on a mobile device.
 
Post reference is the way you'll eventually do it, meaning do it all mentally then as you quickly read the list afterwards you'll know if there is an item you missed.
 
Cooter143 said:
It depends on how much you are flying and how familiar you are with the airplane. If you've been out of the cockpit for a while, break out the checklist. If you are flying often and are familiar, then coming up with a good habit pattern can replace breaking out the checklist every time. The habit pattern should be some form of memory aid that includes the checklist items.
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People have died from not using checklists. No matter how much you know your plane, pull out the checklist. It doesn't take long.
 
jordane93 said:
People have died from not using checklists. No matter how much you know your plane, pull out the checklist. It doesn't take long.
Click to expand...

People have died for lots of reasons in aviation. I didn't say not to do a checklist, I said you don't need to break out and read every checklist. When flying single pilot, do you pull out and read the landing checklist? I think that if you are capable of getting your pilots license, you are capable of memorizing a 4-5 item checklist. I can spit out the landing checklist of aircraft that I haven't flown in 8 yrs. It's not that hard and I would argue that it is safer than burying your nose in a checklist especially when in the traffic pattern.
 
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jordane93 said:
People have died from not using checklists. No matter how much you know your plane, pull out the checklist. It doesn't take long.
Click to expand...

And people- even multi crew flight decks using checklist have skipped items (including killer items) as well. There is no perfect solution.
 
Cooter143 said:
When flying single pilot, do you pull out and read the landing checklist?
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I do not, but in every airplane I fly single pilot the landing checklist is:

-Landing Gear (already down before I call out the before landing checklist)
-Mixture
-Fuel
-Landing Light

I'm still doing my dual in the Twin Beech and there are a few more items to check. Haven't totally developed my routine in that one yet.
 
Checklist on the ground, memory items in the air.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I do not, but in every airplane I fly single pilot the landing checklist is:

-Landing Gear (already down before I call out the before landing checklist)
-Mixture
-Fuel
-Landing Light

I'm still doing my dual in the Twin Beech and there are a few more items to check. Haven't totally developed my routine in that one yet.
Click to expand...

For the landing checklist, I develop a cadence that will be noticeably incomplete if something is missing. It changes with the aircraft, but is usually Gear, Flaps, Speedbrakes, Oil/Hyd pressures, Fuel weight, Final appch speed. For the takeoff checks, I do a left to right sweep.
 
Cooter143 said:
People have died for lots of reasons in aviation. I didn't say not to do a checklist, I said you don't need to break out and read every checklist. When flying single pilot, do you pull out and read the landing checklist? I think that if you are capable of getting your pilots license, you are capable of memorizing a 4-5 item checklist. I can spit out the landing checklist of aircraft that I haven't flown in 8 yrs. It's not that hard and I would argue that it is safer than burying your nose in a checklist especially when in the traffic pattern.
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Do I read the landing checklist? Of course I do. If you plan ahead, the checklist isn't a distraction.
 
jordane93 said:
Do I read the landing checklist? Of course I do. If you plan ahead, the checklist isn't a distraction.
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I'm just curious, how many items are on your landing checklist? If you choose to do it that way that's fine, but I consider it unnecessary for most single piloted aircraft. In fact, I've never used one nor has anyone I've ever flown with actually read a landing checklist other than in a multi-pilot airplane where the PNF reads it. Some airplanes I've flown have had the T/O and landing checks placarded on the dash. That seems like a better idea if you're set on reading it.

That might be a good poll question, I'm curious to see what others do.
 
Oh I do

Land up for water
Down for land
I run that like 3 times before touch down.

Fly amphibs and you'll be OCD on that
 
Cooter143 said:
I'm just curious, how many items are on your landing checklist? If you choose to do it that way that's fine, but I consider it unnecessary for most single piloted aircraft. In fact, I've never used one nor has anyone I've ever flown with actually read a landing checklist other than in a multi-pilot airplane where the PNF reads it. Some airplanes I've flown have had the T/O and landing checks placarded on the dash. That seems like a better idea if you're set on reading it.

That might be a good poll question, I'm curious to see what others do.
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Depending on the plane, 3-5 things. I was taught checklist usage from day one and that's how I do it and that's how I teach my students. The FAA even thinks it's so important that they'll bust applicants for not using it. If you think checklist usage gets in the way of piloting I would seriously work on your (not specifically you) single pilot management.
 
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This is a very interesting discussion. I changed planes six years ago (exact same plant) and my check list went the the old plane. New on did not have one and I have never made one for it.

Before departure mental check list consists of scanning left to right and then down the center console. I just make sure everything is in the right place. As I start to roll I just say "Everything forward plus fuel pump" On approach I use GUMPF.

Recently I decided to enter all the lists into the Garmin 480 to see how it works. It is OK but I find it very distracting having to look at the 480 after each item and press the CHK button. I would much rather have more important screens showing. And keep my eyes outside the plane.

I have looked at some off the shelf checklist for my aircraft but they seem a little weird, the fire on the ground checklist reminds me to call the fire department but does not suggest that I get out of the plane first.
I have about 1200 in type and model.

Life is a barrel of fun.

Ken
 
jordane93 said:
Depending on the plane, 3-5 things. I was taught checklist usage from day one and that's how I do it and that's how I teach my students. The FAA even thinks it's so important that they'll bust applicants for not using it.
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Even the FAA allows for memorized items then a "reviewed complete". Like I said, that's fine if you choose to do it that way. On large aircraft I've flown, you never put the checklist away on short legs. On others, it's not practical to pull out a checklist and read it. I have found that thinking through the checklist prepares you better for catching something you missed rather than reading through a checklist. If you can forget to put the gear down, why couldn't you forget to run the checklist?
 
Cooter143 said:
Even the FAA allows for memorized items then a "reviewed complete". Like I said, that's fine if you choose to do it that way. On large aircraft I've flown, you never put the checklist away on short legs. On others, it's not practical to pull out a checklist and read it. I have found that thinking through the checklist prepares you better for catching something you missed rather than reading through a checklist. If you can forget to put the gear down, why couldn't you forget to run the checklist?
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Yep. Just like you said memorized items then a reviewed complete. We do flows but always back it up with the checklist.
 
172 - I preflight, then look at the checklist, see if I missed anything - that old school nonsense of carrying it around with you is counter-productive. . .I then use it in concert with run-up, and I'm through with it for the remainder of the flight. I mean, it's a fixed gear, fixed pitch, single engine airplane.
 
James331 said:
Oh I do

Land up for water
Down for land
I run that like 3 times before touch down.

Fly amphibs and you'll be OCD on that
Click to expand...

Lol!!! Run the flow a few times yes, but do the checklist a few times??? :lol:
 
For run up and departure it's flow followed up with a checklist review. Enroute it's WIRE (Wx Instruments Radio Elevation/altitudes) then GUMPS for landing.
 
I've always been in the habit of reviewing a checklist before and after, even if I have it memorized. The preflight checklist on our birds at work run past 300 line items and include numerous charts for items based on conditions and they change between versions. I've got almost everything but the tables memorized, but changes do pop up ever so often and with new birds coming online pretty often. Unless you are operating the same equipment every time, working from memorization for anything but boldface procedures, will make you complacent and it will eventually bite you.
 
Craig said:
working from memorization for anything but boldface procedures, will make you complacent and it will eventually bite you.
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Not to belabor the point, but complacency is a mindset independent of methods. You can be just as complacent running a checklist, especially a three or four item checklist that you've run hundreds of times, as you can verbalizing a memorized checklist. Or, as discussed above, glancing through an already accomplished checklist and announcing reviewed complete. Or you can forget to run the checklist, I've seen that happen. I can honestly say that I've had more difficulty in keeping my place following a written check list and being distracted as I have verbalizing one from memory. To me, it depends on the aircraft and how familiar you are with it.
 
I can't find a picture or a link darnit, but I have one of those transparent checklists from Sporty's that's stuck on the pilots window. It's a carbureted C182 checklist, but it works for our C180.

Very handy.
 
Checklists can be used as "read and do" lists, "briefing" lists or "did" lists depending on the particular flight phase, the aircraft involved, the pilot's experience with the aircraft and generally, and other factors.

"Read and do" - read and step and do it - is mostly used by new pilots and pilots in new-to-them aircraft as they are learning different cockpit flows. Some, of course, never get past that stage.

"Briefing" - Best example is before takeoff, especially for those who fly different types aircraft. I use my checklist to "brief" from Vr through the transition to en route climb. I'm kind of hoping no one starts tolling down the runway and then looks at a checklist for the first time to see when to rotate (read-and-do), or, for that matter, takes off and then checks back to see whether they did it right ("did").

"Did" list. Also what some folks will refer to as a real "check" list. That's the flow followed by a check. i think the first one of those taught to most pilots is the preflight inspection - examine a segment of the airplane with a flow and check back to see if you managed to miss something.

I use a combination of "briefing" and "did" usage. "Briefing" for takeoff and before landing. Flow and "did" for most everything else.
 
Aside from use, IMO the single biggest problem with checklists are ones that are too long and too detailed on non-essentials. Do you really need the "Throttle - FULL OPEN" in the takeoff checklist?

That's a reason I am a big fan of roll-your-own checklists that contain both content and format that are meaningful to you, even if it makes no sense to someone else.
 
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