Can USAF assist ATC?

[midwestpa24]

This is a crazy question that just popped in my head while sitting in my office listening to the scanner and watching ADS-B Exchange. Can or has the Air Force use E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft to assist ATC? The reason it came to mind was hearing Center telling some pilots about a radar outage, then noticing a pair of E-3 Sentrys operating in the area.

Just thought the collective brain trust here might have some insight. Granted it may require security clearance to see the answer...

 

[Radar Contact]

In my 20 years the only time I’ve ever seen it was in a land Far East of here. Never heard of it CONUS.

 

[flyingron]

Never heard of them using an E-3, but I've been handed off to some ANG guys in a portable radar facility at times.

 

[midwestpa24]

Thanks for the quick answers. I didn't know if it was even possible technologically, if not possible procedurally. Obviously the abilities of the AWACS are somewhat sensitive information, but I had no idea if they were capable of even pretending to be a civilian ATC.

I guess that would have made a good stand-in for Chicago Center years ago when they had the big fire, but it wasn't done that I know of. They went ATC Zero for quite a while until that mess was cleaned up.

 

[Radar Contact]

I guess that would have made a good stand-in for Chicago Center years ago when they had the big fire, but it wasn't done that I know of. They went ATC Zero for quite a while until that mess was cleaned up.

They were 0 for a while. The second or third day the TRACON was working almost normal volumes of traffic by handing off to Minneapolis, Indy, Cleveland and Kansas City Centers.

They possibly have the capability but that’s not their mission/training. They are highly effective in their unique mission.

 

[Bob Noel]

This is a crazy question that just popped in my head while sitting in my office listening to the scanner and watching ADS-B Exchange. Can or has the Air Force use E-3 Sentry AWACS aircraft to assist ATC? The reason it came to mind was hearing Center telling some pilots about a radar outage, then noticing a pair of E-3 Sentrys operating in the area.

Just thought the collective brain trust here might have some insight. Granted it may require security clearance to see the answer...

yes. an E-3 or E-2C could be used... as well as any DOD ground-based radar.

a spur-of-the-moment use would be unusual.

Using it as a substitute for FAA radar coverage (think radar vectors) would require coordination..and I'm not sure it would be worth it.

 

[TCABM]

Could vs would are two different things. USAF E-3 backenders are not trained or qualified to provide air traffic control services. Other than displaying a mode 3 code for a particular target, the platform does not have a capability of correlating that code to a specific flight FAA/ICAO flight plan in real time.

 

[midwestpa24]

I guess one question, does an AWACS even have VHF band radios they could use to talk to civilian aircraft? I know a lot of military stuff is done on UHF.

 

[FORANE]

I once had a gear indicator fail to show all 3 in the green. ATC advised he had someone in the area and asked if I wanted him to look at it. I was going into a remote field and said sure.
Next thing I knew I was speaking to another pilot on a different frequency who advised me to pick a vector and he would find me. A short while later he said he was 100 yards behind me. Then 20 feet under me. I looked over my shoulder and saw an A 10 in formation just about 10 feet under me.

 

[TCABM]

I guess one question, does an AWACS even have VHF band radios they could use to talk to civilian aircraft? I know a lot of military stuff is done on UHF.

Yes, depending on block/model it may he as few as 1 VHF-AM and 1 VHF-FM.

 

[midwestpa24]

I once had a gear indicator fail to show all 3 in the green. ATC advised he had someone in the area and asked if I wanted him to look at it. I was going into a remote field and said sure.
Next thing I knew I was speaking to another pilot on a different frequency who advised me to pick a vector and he would find me. A short while later he said he was 100 yards behind me. Then 20 feet under me. I looked over my shoulder and saw an A 10 in formation just about 10 feet under me.

You make two people I know that have been intercepted by an A-10. The other was a fellow flight school student that was attempting to RTB on the morning of 9/11. It was politely "suggested" he land at a small airfield closer than home base was. That trainer stayed tied down there for quite a while.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

A short while later he said he was 100 yards behind me. Then 20 feet under me. I looked over my shoulder and saw an A 10 in formation just about 10 feet under me.

If he was, in fact, 10-20 feet away from you without you having/him knowing if you had any formation flight experience and discussing it first, that would have been quite reckless. An A-10 is not a small plane, and I suspect he was actually a good bit farther away than you thought he was.

Also, the thought of having that cannon 100 yards behind me, friendly or not, would probably give me a significant pucker factor.

 

[Pugs]

If he was, in fact, 10-20 feet away from you without you having/him knowing if you had any formation flight experience and discussing it first, that would have been quite reckless. An A-10 is not a small plane, and I suspect he was actually a good bit farther away than you thought he was.

Some lessons have to be learned the hard way. The USN lost an F-14 and T-34 with (IIRC) the T-34 trying to do unbriefed form work while checking a hung gear on a Tomcat. Dissimilar form is tricky.

 

[FORANE]

No no, he advised multiple times he was so many feet behind, pulling up below, etc.

 

[Initial Fix]

I guess one question, does an AWACS even have VHF band radios they could use to talk to civilian aircraft? I know a lot of military stuff is done on UHF.

yes

 

[Jeff Oslick]

Some lessons have to be learned the hard way. The USN lost an F-14 and T-34 with (IIRC) the T-34 trying to do unbriefed form work while checking a hung gear on a Tomcat. Dissimilar form is tricky.

Odds of walking away from a gear-up landing, or even a stuck-gear situation, are a heck of a lot better than surviving a mid-air.

 

[Timbeck2]

All I know is that the AWACS guys in back refer to themselves as "controllers."

Nope

 

[Velocity173]

Well, like @TCABM stated, they’re not controllers. They deal with IFF (mode 1,2, 3, 4) GCI. Basically, air space command and control (C2).They don’t have FAA “pink cards” that qualify them as controllers and separate to FAA standards.

It’s kinda like in military ATC in a wartime environment. You have controllers certified by the FAA then you have long range radar GCI guys (similar to AWACS) who like to claim they’re controllers. Anyway, they work hand in hand. Controllers separate in their AO (less than 60nm) and the long range radar guys provide a tactical picture.

Also, I don’t know of any military aircraft that doesn’t have VHF capability. We had VHF, UHF, 2 FMs, HF, and SATCOM. Can be an absolute **** show with all the chatter.

 

[Bob Noel]

um, the FAA doesn't have a monopoly on controllers nor a trademark on the label "controller".

The guys in back of the AWACS (like the guys in USAF RAPCONs) are trained to control air traffic in military airspace.

 

[Velocity173]

um, the FAA doesn't have a monopoly on controllers nor a trademark on the label "controller".

The guys in back of the AWACS (like the guys in USAF RAPCONs) are trained to control air traffic in military airspace.

No, they’re two different things. AWACS provides Command and Control. That has nothing to do with ATC. USAF RAPCONs and other military radar facilities (RATCF / ARAC) provide ATC in the NAS just like a a civilian controller. They have 7220-1s (pink cards) and if applicable, control tower operator certificates (CTO) just like their civilian counterparts. AWACS “controllers” don’t possess those items. Therefore, they can’t control traffic in the NAS. Two completely separate schools / MOSs.

 

[Velocity173]

Start at the “background.” While an example of procedures gone wrong, it’s also an example of what what AWACS does.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Black_Hawk_shootdown_incident

 

[RussR]

All I know is that the AWACS guys in back refer to themselves as "controllers."

Nope

Agreed. We would always joke that while our job was to keep planes apart, theirs was the complete opposite, to run them into each other (i.e. vector for intercepts).

Also, I don’t know of any military aircraft that doesn’t have VHF capability. We had VHF, UHF, 2 FMs, HF, and SATCOM. Can be an absolute **** show with all the chatter.

While the AWACS answer has already been given, I think there are a lot of military aircraft with only UHF. I'm not 100% certain on this, as it's been a few years since I got out of the AF, but I'm pretty sure most fighters only have UHF. T-38 certainly. F-16? F-15? Or at least the older ones.

 

[Velocity173]

Agreed. We would always joke that while our job was to keep planes apart, theirs was the complete opposite, to

While fighters preferred UHF (preset freqs) I never worked one that didn’t have a VHF radio.

 

[TCABM]

…I'm pretty sure most fighters only have UHF. T-38 certainly. F-16? F-15? Or at least the older ones.

F-15 was originally 2x UHF and the F-16 was 1 ea. A-10 had VHF of each flavor and UHF. Post-9/11, various programs strapped a VHF capability to the F-15 or upgraded the radios to operate in AM bands, IIRC.

Off the top of my head, Navy and Marine fighters, generally, were UHF and VHF capable, except maybe the legacy F-14, by the 90s at the latest.

 

[nauga]

"Skyhawk 6 echo charlie requesting VFR advisories and bogey dope"

Nauga,
tumbleweed

 

[Magman]

The hiccup in resuming operations following 9/11 Airspace Shutdown resulted

in my neighbor being tagged by an AWACS .

Sheriff, State Police etc joined in.

Last minute cancellation of resumption sucks.

 

[luvflyin]

Agreed. We would always joke that while our job was to keep planes apart, theirs was the complete opposite, to run them into each other (i.e. vector for intercepts).



While the AWACS answer has already been given, I think there are a lot of military aircraft with only UHF. I'm not 100% certain on this, as it's been a few years since I got out of the AF, but I'm pretty sure most fighters only have UHF. T-38 certainly. F-16? F-15? Or at least the older ones.

I’m sure the ones that do things like deal with TFR and ADIZ violators have VHF.

 

[Arm3]

Agreed. We would always joke that while our job was to keep planes apart, theirs was the complete opposite, to run them into each other (i.e. vector for intercepts)

Yeah, when civilian controllers do the job right it helps every plane land whole. When AWACS “controllers” do their job they help the right planes come down in pieces.

 

[Rich Holt]

My squadron (VAW-121) was sent to P-cola in the aftermath of Katrina to provide RADAR coverage and control for the area of Houston center that was down. Additionally, the AEW (E-2) crew has to be certified (and maintain currency) as CVN approach controller for the inevitable CATTCC casualty that results in 10-20 jets needing approach control to the CVN. This dance is sometimes referred to as the Hummer Controlled Approach (HCA) or, more recently, The CATTC Casualty Approach (CCA).

Well, like @TCABM stated, they’re not controllers. They deal with IFF (mode 1,2, 3, 4) GCI. Basically, air space command and control (C2). They don’t have FAA “pink cards” that qualify them as controllers and separate to FAA standards.

It's referred to as AIC (Airborne Intercept Control) not GCI (Ground Controlled Intercept). Mainly because the AWACS and AEW platforms are not on the ground.
Also, our cards are white, not pink.

 

[Velocity173]

My squadron (VAW-121) was sent to P-cola in the aftermath of Katrina to provide RADAR coverage and control for the area of Houston center that was down. Additionally, the AEW (E-2) crew has to be certified (and maintain currency) as CVN approach controller for the inevitable CATTCC casualty that results in 10-20 jets needing approach control to the CVN. This dance is sometimes referred to as the Hummer Controlled Approach (HCA) or, more recently, The CATTC Casualty Approach (CCA).



It's referred to as AIC (Airborne Intercept Control) not GCI (Ground Controlled Intercept). Mainly because the AWACS and AEW platforms are not on the ground.
Also, our cards are white, not pink.

You separated civilian aircraft with no ATC qualifications?

 

[Rich Holt]

You separated civilian aircraft with no ATC qualifications?

Uh..No. We provided advisory control while assisting with the SAR, officially. I guess providing separation for military aircraft is soooo much different than civilian aircraft.

 

[Velocity173]

Uh..No. We provided advisory control while assisting with the SAR, officially. I guess providing separation for military aircraft is soooo much different than civilian aircraft.

OK, that’s not ATC then. You were just monitoring aircraft. You weren’t clearing aircraft for IAPs or sequencing and separating aircraft. In order to do that you’d 1) have to have graduated from a military / FAA ATC school (with appropriate ratings) and 2) have equipment that’s certified to provide ATC services in the NAS.

 

[Timbeck2]

Up until a couple years ago, we were required to have those pink cards on our person while performing ATC duties. There was an equivalent of a "ramp check" every so often just to make sure.

The date on mine is just a couple months earlier than the one depicted.

 

[Velocity173]

Up until a couple years ago, we were required to have those pink cards on our person while performing ATC duties. There was an equivalent of a "ramp check" every so often just to make sure.

The date on mine is just a couple months earlier than the one depicted.

Thought you went to Biloxi in the late 80s?

 

[Timbeck2]

Thought you went to Biloxi in the late 80s?

Nope, spring of 92. I was still at Kadena in the late 80s, rotated back to the states in January '89. In '91 they said "we have too many jet engine mechanics. Some of you will need to volunteer to re-train and if we don't get enough volunteers, we will start voluntelling."

That's when I decided to become a controller.

 

[Rich Holt]

OK, that’s not ATC then. You were just monitoring aircraft. You weren’t clearing aircraft for IAPs or sequencing and separating aircraft. In order to do that you’d 1) have to have graduated from a military / FAA ATC school (with appropriate ratings) and 2) have equipment that’s certified to provide ATC services in the NAS.

View attachment 99408

Aww. Isn't that pretty. I didn't need one of those for HCA's. You should frame that thing. I did. You know... my white one that allowed me to run a/c into each other, and then later, clear them for the IAP.

 

[RussR]

I guess providing separation for military aircraft is soooo much different than civilian aircraft.

Having worked both, I would say it is. MARSA is the one main reason. Even if not officially declared, I definitely had situations where military aircraft got away with doing things civilian aircraft couldn't.

 

[luvflyin]

Having worked both, I would say it is. MARSA is the one main reason. Even if not officially declared, I definitely had situations where military aircraft got away with doing things civilian aircraft couldn't.

Not to mention Military Controllers, in uniform or Civilians working the for the DOD getting away with all kinds of fun stuff FAA Controllers couldn't.

 

[Velocity173]

Aww. Isn't that pretty. I didn't need one of those for HCA's. You should frame that thing. I did. You know... my white one that allowed me to run a/c into each other, and then later, clear them for the IAP.

Jeez, relax dude. I’m not saying you all don’t provide an invaluable service. Simply saying, you didn’t provide ATC service during Katrina. It would be flat out illegal.

I’ve worked with GCI guys who claimed to be controllers. They’re not. They don’t go to the same school as us. They don’t have the qualifications as us. There equipment isn’t certified to provide ATC services. They can’t do a GCA. They can’t clear aircraft for anything remotely pertaining to an ATC clearance.

Also that was 17 years ago. They use ADS-B (Hurricane Michael) to fill in radar gaps now.

 

[luvflyin]

Up until a couple years ago, we were required to have those pink cards on our person while performing ATC duties. There was an equivalent of a "ramp check" every so often just to make sure.

The date on mine is just a couple months earlier than the one depicted.

Did you work in a Tower in the US? I know you do now, but when you were in the AF? If so I'm assuming you had a CTO Certificate.