Can Paid CFII be a Safety Pilot

humblehounds

humblehounds

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Derek T.
Greetings, all. I've seen a couple versions of this question, but not exactly:

Can I pay a CFII to act as safety pilot?

I'm just about to begin Instrument training in earnest. I don't have any pilot friends and I need a lot (30-40 hrs) of Instrument and PIC XC time, so I'm wondering: can I pay my CFII to be my safety pilot to log those XC and SimInst hours since I don't have a buddy? Or, will he have to log those hours as dual, since he is a CFII and being compensated? I'll ask him about it next time we fly, but I'm curious what the community here would think and interpret from any pertinent regs. I expect one stipulation is that I'm not flying on an instrument flight plan or in IMC because that would "force" the flight to be a training flight. I'm talking only about VMC and practice approaches on 50+ NM legs.

For those wondering: I don't fly with a club and my CFI(I) is new to me, only having met him because I wanted to get a tailwheel endorsement. We're finishing that up this week and then I'd like to get on with the Instrument Rating in 2024.

Thanks!
 
there is no requirement to fly any hours with a safety pilot, so I’m confused by your question. You can get some of your simulated instrument time cheaper by using a safety pilot instead of a cfi, but there is no reg that requires any time done that way.

for your 50 hours cross country, it only has to be PIC. You can still be PIC while getting dual training.
 
The dual received doesn’t negatively affect you in any way, his rate is unlikely to change between dual and SP, and it adds to his time given as an instructor. I see no reason that you would want to make the distinction.

In fact, FAR 61.65 doesn’t even use the words “safety pilot” anywhere in the regulation. The only thing it says is that you must have

(d) Aeronautical experience for the instrument-airplane rating. A person who applies for an instrument-airplane ratingmust have logged:

(2) Forty hours of actual or simulated instrument time in the areas of operation listed in paragraph (c) of this section, of which 15 hours must have been received from an authorized instructor who holds an instrument-airplane rating, and the instrumenttime includes:…

By doing 50 hrs with an authorized instructor, you definitely fulfill the requirement of at least 15.
 
Two questions.
1. Where have you seen other versions of this question? I haven’t in the 30 or so years I’ve been in online and live aviation groups.
2. Why wouldn’t you want it logged as dual? (I have a guess, but it’s probably wrong).
 
I've paid CFIs and CFIIs to be safety pilots to get a couple of practice approaches done to remain legally proficient, but that was after my training was complete and I had my IR. During training, all the time flown with the CFII was dual.
 
Lots of misunderstandings in this question. Why would you not want dual instruction from him? At this point, and let’s be honest, you don’t know how to fly an IAP. Just going out and aimlessly trying to fly one at this point isn’t going to do you any good other than logging time under the hood on paper. You will be far better off building a solid foundation with a CFII as dual given before even thinking about using a safety pilot.

In my eyes, if he’s just acting as a safety pilot, he’s just there and only minimally critiquing at best. Not what you want right now.
 
Salty said:
there is no requirement to fly any hours with a safety pilot, so I’m confused by your question. You can get some of your simulated instrument time cheaper by using a safety pilot instead of a cfi, but there is no reg that requires any time done that way.

for your 50 hours cross country, it only has to be PIC. You can still be PIC while getting dual training.
Click to expand...
Ah! That’s what I’m missing, Salty. I did a little instrument work after finishing private that was logged as dual, not PIC. That’s the question I should have been asking. 61.51.e.1.iv.B. Much appreciated!
 
midlifeflyer said:
Two questions.
1. Where have you seen other versions of this question? I haven’t in the 30 or so years I’ve been in online and live aviation groups.
2. Why wouldn’t you want it logged as dual? (I have a guess, but it’s probably wrong).
Click to expand...
I went down a rabbit hole about if a CFI (not II) can be a safety pilot; that was about the closest to my question. Gap filled, though. It’s the logging of PIC with Dual that I didn’t get.
 
MauleSkinner said:
he’s a Commercial pilot, so yes, you can pay him to be a safety pilot, but why not log it as dual received?
Click to expand...
Didn’t realize you can log both PIC and Dual. Still getting used to not being a student. Been logging time in a C140 recently, but now understand that because I don’t yet have a TW endorsement, the Dual is not PIC in this circumstance. Would be different in a plane in which I’m qualified.
 
RyanB said:
Lots of misunderstandings in this question. Why would you not want dual instruction from him? At this point, and let’s be honest, you don’t know how to fly an IAP. Just going out and aimlessly trying to fly one at this point isn’t going to do you any good other than logging time under the hood on paper. You will be far better off building a solid foundation with a CFII as dual given before even thinking about using a safety pilot.
Click to expand...
I've always thought of time with a safety pilot as the instrument student's version of solo: a way to practice what you've learned, and best done with the participation of one's CFII. In my case, my safety pilot time was arranged by my CFII and he chose the safety pilot for me.

Just doing it as you describe is almost guaranteed to develop bad habits and lengthen the training time.

But that's why I was asking @humblehounds why he wanted to do this. Could be anything from a misdirected desire to get the requirements out of the way before beginning training to common misunderstanding the logging rules to a jealous CFII who doesn't want to see anyone else's signature in the student's logbook.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I've always thought of time with a safety pilot as the instrument student's version of solo: a way to practice what you've learned, and best done with the participation of one's CFII. In my case, my safety pilot time was arranged by my CFII and he chose the safety pilot for me.

Just doing it as you describe is almost guaranteed to develop bad habits and lengthen the training time.

But that's why I was asking @humblehounds why he wanted to do this. Could be anything from a misdirected desire to get the requirements out of the way before beginning training to common misunderstanding the logging rules to a jealous CFII who doesn't want to see anyone else's signature in the student's logbook.
Click to expand...
100% misunderstanding the logging rules. I got my PPL in 2021, but had to take a lot of time off for a couple back surgeries. I didn't get a chance after earning the certificate and jet off into the sunset...
Recently got back in the air to get a TW endorsement. I have a lot of dual and not a lot of PIC/XC. But now I know that you can log both when properly rated for the plane and activity. I'd love to log most of that 40 instrument/50 XC "for free" with a buddy, but... here we are.
 
You do the same thing with the CFII acting as an instructor. If you are doing fine and self-critiquing when you make mistakes, the instructor can and should be pretty much quiet.
 
humblehounds said:
I went down a rabbit hole about if a CFI (not II) can be a safety pilot; that was about the closest to my question. Gap filled, though. It’s the logging of PIC with Dual that I didn’t get.
Click to expand...
I kind of guessed that might be the reason when I asked. Almost said it but decided not to ask the leading question.
 
humblehounds said:
Didn’t realize you can log both PIC and Dual. Still getting used to not being a student. Been logging time in a C140 recently, but now understand that because I don’t yet have a TW endorsement, the Dual is not PIC in this circumstance. Would be different in a plane in which I’m qualified.
Click to expand...

Oh, but you may certainly log PIC during this TW training!

Perhaps this will help:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/the-definitive-pic-thread.90574/
 
JoeSelch said:
Oh, but you may certainly log PIC during this TW training!

Perhaps this will help:
https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/the-definitive-pic-thread.90574/
Click to expand...
:crazy:
My instructor literally signed my book across the PIC section, so I cant' even write it in if I wanted to. :dunno: I'm not pressed about that PIC time, though; won't help me toward the Instrument rating (it's all local stuff and a bunch of patterns)... but I need to have a chat with my instructor about it.
 
humblehounds said:
Didn’t realize you can log both PIC and Dual. Still getting used to not being a student. Been logging time in a C140 recently, but now understand that because I don’t yet have a TW endorsement, the Dual is not PIC in this circumstance. Would be different in a plane in which I’m qualified.
Click to expand...
wrong. you cannot act as pic because you do not have the endorsement. however, you can log pic as sole manipulator of the controls as you are rated single engine land.
61.51 Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
 
humblehounds said:
:crazy:
My instructor literally signed my book across the PIC section, so I cant' even write it in if I wanted to. :dunno: I'm not pressed about that PIC time, though; won't help me toward the Instrument rating (it's all local stuff and a bunch of patterns)... but I need to have a chat with my instructor about it.
Click to expand...
It's not uncommon for instructors, especially old school tailwheel instructors, to either not know or not like the FAA's logging rules.
 
midlifeflyer said:
It's not uncommon for instructors, especially old school tailwheel instructors, to either not know or not like the FAA's logging rules.
Click to expand...
As an old school tailwheel instructor, I resemble that remark about not liking it. But if They want to log it that way, theres nothing I can do about it.
 
MauleSkinner said:
As an old school tailwheel instructor, I resemble that remark about not liking it. But if They want to log it that way, theres nothing I can do about it.
Click to expand...
Apparently you can :D
humblehounds said:
My instructor literally signed my book across the PIC section, so I cant' even write it in if I wanted to.
Click to expand...
 
humblehounds said:
My instructor literally signed my book across the PIC section, so I cant' even write it in if I wanted to.
Click to expand...
You just aren't trying hard enough. Just write it a little off to the side, or up or down some. If nothing else, just write it directly on top of his signature. Logbooks aren't meant to be pretty. :D

Or, go digital and just enter it.
 
unsafervguy said:
wrong. you cannot act as pic because you do not have the endorsement. however, you can log pic as sole manipulator of the controls as you are rated single engine land.
61.51 Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
Click to expand...
Yep, got that now. Read the thread someone linked above about Acting as PIC vs Logging PIC. Thanks!
 
humblehounds said:
:crazy:
My instructor literally signed my book across the PIC section, so I cant' even write it in if I wanted to. :dunno: I'm not pressed about that PIC time, though; won't help me toward the Instrument rating (it's all local stuff and a bunch of patterns)... but I need to have a chat with my instructor about it.
Click to expand...
Tell him to stop doing that. It is your logbook, not his.

A single flight can take up more than one line in the logbook. Use the line below the flight to add anything that you couldn't add on the first line.
 
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