Can I log both legs as cross country time?

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James Darren

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James Darren
Hi all,

If I was to fly from KSMO to KWHP to KAVX, can I log the entire flight as cross country time?

Total flight is 66NM.
KSMO to KWHP is approx 14NM, and full stop at KWHP
KWHP to KAVX is approx 52NM

But since I'm back tracking and KSMO to KAVX is only 37NM, does the leg from KSMO to KWHP count as cross country time?

See attached image.
 

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No, only the two airports that are 50nm apart count as Cross Country. For ATP the landing isn't required IIRC.
 
The standards for logging cross country do not have any minimum length. It all can be logged as cross country if you went somewhere using pilotage or navigation and landed when you got there.

The standards for counting time as "cross country" for any particular rating involve minimum lengths. The minimum distance will depend on the rating.

Sometimes you can log the time, but not count it towards a particular rating.

Sometimes you can log the time and count it towards a rating

Sometimes you can not log the time as cross country, but you can count it towards a rating.
 
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I believe it's >50 nm straight line distance between two points with landing for those ratings. So, you can only count the one >50 nm (KWHP to KAVX) for the IFR and commercial.
 
For this stated purpose, no, it does not count, because it does not include a landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (SMO), the farthest landing (AVX) being only 37 nm from the original point of departure. The fact that one leg is over 50 nm doesn't change that problem.
 
Ron Levy said:
For this stated purpose, no, it does not count, because it does not include a landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (SMO), the farthest landing (AVX) being only 37 nm from the original point of departure. The fact that one leg is over 50 nm doesn't change that problem.
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Was there a modification to that rule about 3-4 yrs ago?

I thought there was a change in the wording that let you do this:

Airport A - 25 miles - Airport B - 26 miles - Airport C

So B is directly between A and C, and A and C are >50 NM.

Original point of departure is B and the route is B - C - A - B.

I thought there was a wording change that allowed for that flight to be logged as an XC for, say counting towards a rating where you needed flights > 50nm.

I don't have the time right now to look that up, but I'm sure something happened that made me think this was now allowed.


edit: I can't find it described that way in the FAR, but I haven't looked very deeply yet. The only reference I've found is "50NM from the original point of departure."

Maybe I'm thinking of something someone once asked about a repositioning flight to an airport that they would then count as the "original point of departure" and ending up at their home airport that they repositioned from.
 
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Ron Levy said:
For this stated purpose, no, it does not count, because it does not include a landing more than 50 nm from the original point of departure (SMO), the farthest landing (AVX) being only 37 nm from the original point of departure. The fact that one leg is over 50 nm doesn't change that problem.
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Interesting, so even doing a full stop landing at KWHP doesn't make the next flight to KAVX cross country?
 
James Darren said:
Interesting, so even doing a full stop landing at KWHP doesn't make the next flight to KAVX cross country?
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Yes, it does, IF the two legs are logged as different flights.

The reg says 50 nm from the point of departure. If the point of departure is Whiteman, it's good.

The repositioning flight from Santa Monica is not cross-country. Neither is the return from Catalina to Santa Monica direct. However, you could log two flights -- SMO-WHP (not XC) and WHP-AVX-SMO (XC), assuming you make a landing at Catalina.

Cross-country includes a landing 50 miles from the point of departure. It does not have to be the last landing. In fact, a lot of folks log XCs where the starting and ending point are the same, with a landing 50+ nm away in between.

The OP didn't say it, but I'm presuming he wants to go home afterward.
 
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Matthew said:
Was there a modification to that rule about 3-4 yrs ago?

I thought there was a change in the wording that let you do this:

Airport A - 25 miles - Airport B - 26 miles - Airport C

So B is directly between A and C, and A and C are >50 NM.

Original point of departure is B and the route is B - C - A - B.

I thought there was a wording change that allowed for that flight to be logged as an XC for, say counting towards a rating where you needed flights > 50nm.

I don't have the time right now to look that up, but I'm sure something happened that made me think this was now allowed.


edit: I can't find it described that way in the FAR, but I haven't looked very deeply yet. The only reference I've found is "50NM from the original point of departure."

Maybe I'm thinking of something someone once asked about a repositioning flight to an airport that they would then count as the "original point of departure" and ending up at their home airport that they repositioned from.
Click to expand...

I thought so too, a similar scenario would be if you flew >50nm to an airport, the next day flew to surrounding airports <50nm, then flew home. I think you could log the shorter trips as XC based on how you log the entire flight.
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, it does, IF the two legs are logged as different flights.

The reg says 50 nm from the point of departure. If the point of departure is Whiteman, it's good.

The repositioning flight from Santa Monica is not cross-country. Neither is the return from Catalina to Santa Monica direct. However, you could log two flights -- SMO-WHP (not XC) and WHP-AVX-SMO (XC), assuming you make a landing at Catalina.

Cross-country includes a landing 50 miles from the point of departure. It does not have to be the last landing. In fact, a lot of folks log XCs where the starting and ending point are the same, with a landing 50+ nm away in between.

The OP didn't say it, but I'm presuming he wants to go home afterward.
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Thanks for the info. Yes I'll be coming back from Catalina, although will be flying back to WHP again first, then SMO.

So I could log:
SMO-WHP (not xc)
WHP-AVX (xc)
AVX-WHP (xc)
WHP-SMO (not xc)

I'll be doing a full stop landing at WHP both times.
 
The rule is 50+ nm from the initial point, for any landing.

You can log more than that. Hint: a flight might be XC in one direction, and not XC in the other. Go figure.
 
Matthew said:
Was there a modification to that rule about 3-4 yrs ago?
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There has been no change to 14 CFR 61.1(b) on this point. The Chief Counsel came up with an interpretation regarding repositioning to allow a cross-country flight to commence at a point other than what would otherwise be considered the original point of departure, but that's not what the OP proposed.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Yes, it does, IF the two legs are logged as different flights.
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That is not true. The interpretation allows repositioning to begin a cross-country flight somewhere other than what would otherwise be the original point of departure, but that must be the specific intent of the repositioning leg. Otherwise, the “original point of departure” does not change with a new day or delay.

The reg says 50 nm from the point of departure.
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No, it does not. It says "the original point of departure."

The repositioning flight from Santa Monica is not cross-country. Neither is the return from Catalina to Santa Monica direct. However, you could log two flights -- SMO-WHP (not XC) and WHP-AVX-SMO (XC), assuming you make a landing at Catalina.
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Simply logging them as two flights isn't sufficient. It must be clear that the leg from SMO-WHP was strictly for repositioning. Also, there was nothing in the original post about returning to SMO -- the flight was terminating at AVX. That would suggest that the intent for the SMO-WHP flight was something other than repositioning for a round-robin XC flight.
 
James Darren said:
Thanks for the info. Yes I'll be coming back from Catalina, although will be flying back to WHP again first, then SMO.

So I could log:
SMO-WHP (not xc)
WHP-AVX (xc)
AVX-WHP (xc)
WHP-SMO (not xc)

I'll be doing a full stop landing at WHP both times.
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This modified itinerary makes clearer the intent to reposition to WHP in order to conduct a >50nm XC flight for PP/IR/CP purposes, and I agree that the WHP-AVX-WHP flight complies with the letter of the Chief Counsel's interpretation of 61.1(b) regarding XC's even though it's not within the spirit of the original 50nm requirement (to get pilots flying outside their usual comfort zone).
 
No kidding... I read the topic as "Can I cross my legs and log cross country time?"

Where the hell are my reading glasses. Sheesh.
 
Ron Levy said:
There has been no change to 14 CFR 61.1(b) on this point. The Chief Counsel came up with an interpretation regarding repositioning to allow a cross-country flight to commence at a point other than what would otherwise be considered the original point of departure, but that's not what the OP proposed.
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OK. That CC letter must be what I remembered.

I can see situations where a pilot is involved in a series of flights and would like to get some credit. But I can also see where it can be almost like cheating the intent of XC time.
 
Ron Levy said:
That is not true. The interpretation allows repositioning to begin a cross-country flight somewhere other than what would otherwise be the original point of departure, but that must be the specific intent of the repositioning leg. Otherwise, the “original point of departure” does not change with a new day or delay.

No, it does not. It says "the original point of departure."

Simply logging them as two flights isn't sufficient. It must be clear that the leg from SMO-WHP was strictly for repositioning. Also, there was nothing in the original post about returning to SMO -- the flight was terminating at AVX. That would suggest that the intent for the SMO-WHP flight was something other than repositioning for a round-robin XC flight.
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The Van Zanen letter, quoted above, says in as many words that the pilot may choose what is a flight and what is a segment of a flight.

The purpose is immaterial. The pilot can pick the one he wants.

He doesn't even have to log the repositioning flight at all if he doesn't want to.
 
MAKG1 said:
The Van Zanen letter, quoted above, says in as many words that the pilot may choose what is a flight and what is a segment of a flight.

The purpose is immaterial. The pilot can pick the one he wants.

He doesn't even have to log the repositioning flight at all if he doesn't want to.
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That's your opinion. My opinion is that the VanZanen letter says exactly what it says, nothing more or less. You won't find anything in it which says "the pilot may choose what is a flight and what is a segment of a flight. The purpose is immaterial. The pilot can pick the one he wants."
 
Matthew said:
OK. That CC letter must be what I remembered.

I can see situations where a pilot is involved in a series of flights and would like to get some credit. But I can also see where it can be almost like cheating the intent of XC time.
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Me, too -- I can't see Flight Standards really being happy with a pilot obtaining PP/IR-Airplane without ever going more than 26nm from home. And I can guarantee that nobody will get my signature on a recommendation endorsement for PP-A or IR-A on that basis.
 
Ron Levy said:
That's your opinion. My opinion is that the VanZanen letter says exactly what it says, nothing more or less. You won't find anything in it which says "the pilot may choose what is a flight and what is a segment of a flight.
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Van Zanen said:
Accordingly, the pilot may choose what is considered a flight and what is merely a segment of a flight,
Click to expand...

.....
 
Ron Levy said:
Where the poster said "The purpose is immaterial. The pilot can pick the one he wants" -- that's not in the letter.
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Oh, give me a break.

Ron, the letter says it is the pilot's choice. Period. It doesn't qualify it with anything, and makes no statement that it must be for the same purpose.

The previous two sentences say:
These interpretations allow a pilot to string together multiple legs to log a single cross-country flight. However, there is nothing in sec. 61.1(b)(3)(ii) or previous FAA interpretations dictating how separate flights must be logged.
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I think you may need to review it. It says everything I said it did, and does not contain the qualification you claimed.
 
The OP indicated that he might log this and everybody seems to agree that it would be OK:

SMO-WHP (not xc)
WHP-AVX (xc)
AVX-WHP (xc)
WHP-SMO (not xc)

Could he also fly directly back from AVX to SMO, skipping WHP, and log this instead?

SMO-WHP (not xc)
WHP-AVX-SMO (xc)

I think yes, but curious what others think.
 
MAKG1 said:
Oh, give me a break.

Ron, the letter says it is the pilot's choice. Period. It doesn't qualify it with anything, and makes no statement that it must be for the same purpose.

I think you may need to review it. It says everything I said it did, and does not contain the qualification you claimed.
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Don't try to confuse Ron with facts. :D

He only likes Chief Counsel interpretations that he agrees with and this one has had his panties in a bunch ever since it was issued.
 
kevmor99 said:
I thought so too, a similar scenario would be if you flew >50nm to an airport, the next day flew to surrounding airports <50nm, then flew home. I think you could log the shorter trips as XC based on how you log the entire flight.
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I sure hope so, that's what I've always done. I may land at several different airports, and I include them all on the same flight. And as long as one of them is over 50 nm from my original departure point, I log it all as cross country time.
 
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