Can I give dual in IMC?

[RocktheWings]

I’m a lowly CFI (non I), but have a lot of students who want me to come along and give them advice and training while they gain experience with IFR ops. For the most part the weather has been fine and they throw on the foggles and I just sit as an enhanced safety pilot and log it as such. We have some uglier wx days coming up and I have someone who wants exposure in actual IMC and in the IFR system under my watch.

I’ve read both sides of this (albeit some outdated) that since I’m not actively giving instruction toward a certificate or rating I’m good to log it as dual (just can’t be counted for that eventual required training time). I’ve also seen the interpretation that I shouldn’t be giving instrument instruction at all passed the ppl tasks regardless of what the situation is. Anyone have any further guidance?

 

[smv]

I think bigger question you should be asking yourself is just how comfortable and proficient you are flying the instruments from the right seat and doing unusual attitude recoveries from over there.

Were it me, before I got my I-I, it would have been logged as Safety Pilot and not as dual.
This, of course, assumes you are instrument current and can legally file/fly the IFR flight plan needed to get into the IMC in the first place. (Class G airspace notwithstanding).

 

[MuseChaser]

I don't know. If you are in actual, you have to be on an IFR flight plan or clearance, so you are pilot-in-command since your student does not yet have an IR. You are not licensed as a CFII, and your student at that point is just a passenger since he can not fly in the IFR system without a licensed CFII giving instruction. It would seem like your student could not log it as dual, and that you could only log it as regular instrument flight time and not as dual given.

That's just total conjecture based upon some light reading and rumination. Like I said, I don't know.

 

[RocktheWings]

I think bigger question you should be asking yourself is just how comfortable and proficient you are flying the instruments from the right seat and doing unusual attitude recoveries from over there.

Were it me, before I got my I-I, it would have been logged as Safety Pilot and not as dual.
This, of course, assumes you are instrument current and can legally file/fly the IFR flight plan needed to get into the IMC in the first place. (Class G airspace notwithstanding).

I feel very comfortable with that from the right seat. Also instrument current and proficient (do a lot of my own flying), just haven’t gotten around to getting the CFII

I don't know. If you are in actual, you have to be on an IFR flight plan or clearance, so you are pilot-in-command since your student does not yet have an IR. You are not licensed as a CFII, and your student at that point is just a passenger since he can not fly in the IFR system without a licensed CFII giving instruction. It would seem like your student could not log it as dual, and that you could only log it as regular instrument flight time and not as dual given.

That's just total conjecture based upon some light reading and rumination. Like I said, I don't know.

In this case the student happens to have their IFR rating and is “current”, but more so wants someone looking over their shoulder and giving some proficiency training in actual conditions and in the system so they don’t goof.

 

[MauleSkinner]

your student at that point is just a passenger since he can not fly in the IFR system without a licensed CFII giving instruction.

There is no reg that limits who can manipulate the flight controls under Part 91. Nor is there a reg that states flight conditions under which an instructor can give instruction. As long as the flight instructor is qualifies to ACT as PIC under IFR, he can log dual given for the student.

Since he is not an “authorized instructor” for the purposes of training for an instrument rating, the time won’t count toward the 15 hours of instrument instruction required, but would count toward the 40 hours of actual or simulated instrument flight required.

As indicated previously, though, whether it’s smart or not is a very different question.

 

[Boone]

I’ve not looked into this much, but I don’t think you can log dual in IMC. Your pilot certificate has instrument rating, your CFI does not. Acting as PIC in instrument conditions means that you are certified to act as a pilot, not instructor. I’m happy to be corrected though.

 

[flyingron]

I If you are in actual, you have to be on an IFR flight plan or clearance, so you are pilot-in-command since your student does not yet have an IR.

So far so good.

You are not licensed as a CFII, and your student at that point is just a passenger since he can not fly in the IFR system without a licensed CFII giving instruction. It would seem like your student could not log it as dual, and that you could only log it as regular instrument flight time and not as dual given.

Nope, the above is certainly not true. The student is still a student. They can log instruction from an authorized instructor. Instrument conditions or being in the system doesn't change that. What he can't do is log this time as counting toward the training time for the instrument rating. He can log it as PIC time (presuming that he is the sole manipulator and rated in the AIRCRAFT). He could log it as other non-instrument-rating related instruction. The student can also log it as instrument flight time (other than the 15 hours of instruction) toward the 40 hours required for the instrument rating.

 

[MauleSkinner]

I’ve not looked into this much, but I don’t think you can log dual in IMC. Your pilot certificate has instrument rating, your CFI does not. Acting as PIC in instrument conditions means that you are certified to act as a pilot, not instructor. I’m happy to be corrected though.

See Ron’s and my responses, and consider yourself corrected.

 

[Boone]

See Ron’s and my responses, and consider yourself corrected.

In this case, gladly. Anything that facilitates logging time is good news. Usually it’s not quite so easy for me.

 

[sarangan]

I’m a lowly CFI (non I), but have a lot of students who want me to come along and give them advice and training while they gain experience with IFR ops. For the most part the weather has been fine and they throw on the foggles and I just sit as an enhanced safety pilot and log it as such. We have some uglier wx days coming up and I have someone who wants exposure in actual IMC and in the IFR system under my watch.

I’ve read both sides of this (albeit some outdated) that since I’m not actively giving instruction toward a certificate or rating I’m good to log it as dual (just can’t be counted for that eventual required training time). I’ve also seen the interpretation that I shouldn’t be giving instrument instruction at all passed the ppl tasks regardless of what the situation is. Anyone have any further guidance?

You can give instrument instruction (and also log it as dual), but it can't be counted towards the required training time for instrument rating.

 

[luvflyin]

I feel very comfortable with that from the right seat. Also instrument current and proficient (do a lot of my own flying), just haven’t gotten around to getting the CFII



In this case the student happens to have their IFR rating and is “current”, but more so wants someone looking over their shoulder and giving some proficiency training in actual conditions and in the system so they don’t goof.

If I’m getting this right, there is no ‘student.’ Or are they working on something else while doing this, like commercial? Do you need some amount of ‘giving’ dual to meet a requirement to get your double I?

 

[MauleSkinner]

If I’m getting this right, there is no ‘student.’ Or are they working on something else while doing this, like commercial? Do you need some amount of ‘giving’ dual to meet a requirement to get your double I?

Apparently he didn’t get the memo on terminology...there are no “students” anymore, only “learners”.

 

[flyingron]

If I’m getting this right, there is no ‘student.’ Or are they working on something else while doing this, like commercial? Do you need some amount of ‘giving’ dual to meet a requirement to get your double I?

Call it what you like. There isn't an official regulatory term other than the "pilot receiving instruction."

There's no amount of instruction required to get the II (propely the instrument airplane rating on your flight instructor certificate). In fact, your first rating on your certificate can be the instrument. You don't have to have any prior instruction experience. Other than the specific requirement for spin stuff, there's no real training experience laid out for instructors. You just get an appropriate instructor to sign you off for the FOI stuff and again that you are trained enough to take the practical. You need a commercial, instrument, and a small amount of PIC time.