Can I get hired at a regional with only GA hours?

[penaltyvectors]

I’m an air traffic controller who just turned 40, and I’m starting to consider the possibility of becoming a regional pilot for my last few years before retirement. I’m eligible to retire at 48 and mandatory retirement is 56, which means I could work at least 10-15 years if I wanted to. I’m currently a PPL IR with about 800 hours all from pleasure flying, and I’m pretty sure I could get almost to ATP hours the same way if I upped my flying by just a bit.

Here’s the question - will any regional look at me if I meet the minimums, but have no actual flying job experience? I meet most of the requirements for CPL, so I could probably get that and CFI and do a small amount of part-time instructing, but that’s about it. I’m not allowed to fly for a commercial outfit while employed as an ATC due to conflict-of-interest rules, and I wouldn’t want to retire early to work a time-building job. My ideal plan would be to apply to regionals while still employed, and only retire from ATC if I get a job offer, and if no one's hiring at the time or I don't get any offers, then I just stay on as an ATC until they force me out.

I know that the industry is decimated right now and it’s impossible to predict what hiring will look like that far into the future, but I’m just trying to get an idea of if this is even something worth considering. During the hiring boom of the last few years, would a 1500-hour GA-only pilot with ATP mins be able to get hired at a regional, or would they want to see at least a year or so of commercial flying experience? Any advice as to whether this is something I should even consider? Thanks!

 

[Brad Z]

So I assume you mean GA only as in non-compensation/hire GA or non flight instructor time?

It's certainly possible. Whether you got a paycheck to fly a PA-32 or you didn't, it's all still single engine PIC time and it counts. The big thing is getting multi-engine hours. You'll have to figure out a way to get at least 50 hours of multi-engine to get the multi-ATP.

 

[Radar Contact]

You'll have to figure out a way to get at least 50 hours of multi-engine to get the multi-ATP.

I’ve got the answer. He should by a twin...it’s the fiscally responsible way.

 

[penaltyvectors]

The big thing is getting multi-engine hours. You'll have to figure out a way to get at least 50 hours of multi-engine to get the multi-ATP.

If that's the biggest obstacle, then I think I could buy the multi time over several years and it wouldn't be too terrible. I have no idea if this is realistic, but if I could solo something like a PA44 after ~25 hours in type, then I would be able to rent the twin for use on longer family trips and the like. If there's no way I'd be able to rent without dragging a CFI along, that'd be more of a bummer, but I make a decent salary and live pretty far below my means, so aggregating that cost over ~10 years wouldn't really break the bank. I'd also be open to MEI, but I assume every CFI out there is competing for those precious few ME students and there'd be no chance to get any real time while instructing part-time.

 

[kayoh190]

As you noted it's tough (if not impossible) to know what the hiring environment will be like, but my thought is if they get back to hiring at minimums like before, they're not going to care about the makeup of those hours.

 

[hindsight2020]

I’m an air traffic controller who just turned 40, and I’m starting to consider the possibility of becoming a regional pilot for my last few years before retirement.

Here’s the question - will any regional look at me if I meet the minimums, but have no actual flying job experience?

Yes, it's called a vanity switch, and people do it all the time. There was a 62 year old that used to post on here that did it a few years back (takes all kinds...). In 2029 when you turn 48, if the major airlines are hiring, then an ATP holder with 0 turbine time will be able to get hired to sling gear in the right seat of an RJ for [redacted] money and fantastic/craptastic schedules, depending on your life stage and homestead distance from assigned domicile at that time.

and I wouldn’t want to retire early to work a time-building job.

Um, good bad or indifferent, a regional job, is a time-building job.

You didn't ask about this part, but if it were me, no way I leave any creditable year I can accrue at 1.7% on the table to go finger-diddle an FMS for a living, let alone for regional wages. Granted, in my case I can't afford that kind of pay cut, so it makes my decision matrix super easy, but I digress on that.

At any rate, I don't know what the significance of 48 yo is for you; is that 20 years of ATC time for ya? It is my understanding anything above 20 for ATC only accrues at the more paltry 1% (unless you can grab MRA+30). I suppose if I hated my job that much, I would be more inclined to gamble with the 1%-accrual creditable years, since the time value of money for those is lower. Only you can answer what's going on in your head regarding the vocational itch. From the financial side, the answer for me at least, would be to bank all that ATC cash, max out the pension credit years, and fly privately in youth. @Radar Contact @Wrench978 et al are several examples of what's possible with ATC money and the time off to enjoy flying, with a secure (eg federal) pension waiting for them at the end. Good luck!

 

[penaltyvectors]

At any rate, I don't know what the significance of 48 yo is for you; is that 20 years of ATC time for ya? It is my understanding anything above 20 for ATC only accrues at the more paltry 1% (unless you can grab MRA+30). I suppose if I hated my job that much, I would be more inclined to gamble with the 1%-accrual creditable years, since the time value of money for those is lower. Only you can answer what's going on in your head regarding the vocational itch. From the financial side, the answer for me at least, would be to bank all that ATC cash, max out the pension credit years, and fly privately in youth. @Radar Contact @Wrench978 et al are several examples of what's possible with ATC money and the time off to enjoy flying, with a secure (eg federal) pension waiting for them at the end. Good luck!

Correct on all counts. I'll have 20 years at 48, and won't get to MRA+30, so I'd be accruing at 1% for those 8ish years. I actually really love my job, and if they let me work til 65 I wouldn't even be considering this, but as of right now (and I know I'm still young and this could change), I don't think I'll be ready to end my working life at age 56 when they kick me out, and I have no interest in riding a desk for a few years. Applying for regionals at age 52ish would let me dip my toes in the water to see what's out there, and if everything goes well I'd be able to spend 10 years flying as a retirement job, with the freedom to leave whenever I want. This obviously wouldn't be a financially beneficial move, rather a way to keep busy and do something that I wanted to as a kid but never pursued. And if I get hired and retire from ATC and then another covid-like event happens and I lose my job 6 months later, ah well - I'll certainly be bummed out, but I'll still be fine financially.

And to be clear, this is still a very early idea. In the grand scheme of things, I won't be spending a ton of extra money to get the time and ratings necessary to pursue this, so if I change my mind or no one's hiring, I'll be perfectly content finishing out my ATC career with no regrets. It just seems like if I'm gonna get awfully close to ATP mins anyway, I might as well go after the CPL and multi time and leave my options open. Thanks for the input.

 

[Salty]

Sorry for going off topic, but I always wondered why can you go pro as a pilot into your 50s, but not a controller?

 

[MauleSkinner]

We used to have a couple of controllers (among other careers) that flew part time for us in Barons and King Airs at a 135 place...SIC at first, and some upgraded. You might check around.

 

[455 Bravo Uniform]

Sorry for going off topic, but I always wondered why can you go pro as a pilot into your 50s, but not a controller?

Same question here.

 

[Clip4]

I would advise you to remain an air traffic controller.

 

[Brad Z]

Sorry for going off topic, but I always wondered why can you go pro as a pilot into your 50s, but not a controller?

The FAA wants maximum return from its training investment. In addition to a higher academy washout rate, they don't get the 25 years of full operational service from some they hire at age 50. Considering it takes years to get fully qualified, they don't want someone who will age out just a few years later.

Whether age 55 is the appropriate age to age-out is obviously up for debate. I've never been a controller but my colleagues who were often described it as a young person's game. I'm sure it depends on the person and the position.

 

[Brad Z]

Correct on all counts. I'll have 20 years at 48, and won't get to MRA+30, so I'd be accruing at 1% for those 8ish years. I actually really love my job, and if they let me work til 65 I wouldn't even be considering this, but as of right now (and I know I'm still young and this could change), I don't think I'll be ready to end my working life at age 56 when they kick me out, and I have no interest in riding a desk for a few years. Applying for regionals at age 52ish would let me dip my toes in the water to see what's out there, and if everything goes well I'd be able to spend 10 years flying as a retirement job, with the freedom to leave whenever I want. This obviously wouldn't be a financially beneficial move, rather a way to keep busy and do something that I wanted to as a kid but never pursued. And if I get hired and retire from ATC and then another covid-like event happens and I lose my job 6 months later, ah well - I'll certainly be bummed out, but I'll still be fine financially.

And to be clear, this is still a very early idea. In the grand scheme of things, I won't be spending a ton of extra money to get the time and ratings necessary to pursue this, so if I change my mind or no one's hiring, I'll be perfectly content finishing out my ATC career with no regrets. It just seems like if I'm gonna get awfully close to ATP mins anyway, I might as well go after the CPL and multi time and leave my options open. Thanks for the input.

All things considered, your ATC experience will be helpful in landing a job at the regionals.

You could always leave ATC, go fly for the regionals for a few years, and then go back to the FAA as an Ops inspector and continue to your full retirement. If you think you'd like to go that direction, get your flight instructor certificate along the way.

 

[ExpressJetter]

When I was at XJT there was a 55 year old guy that was an attorney. He that his own twin and flew it enough hours. During the interview he said he made his money as an attorney, retired his practice. And wanted to live his dream of being an airline pilot. He was hired and in my class. Unfortunately he couldn't grasp the simulator and ground school and failed out. This was back in 2007

As long as you can study and have good stick and rudder skills it's not impossible. Just interview well and keep in the books

 

[Zeldman]

Anything wrong with being a dispatcher.??

 

[Sierra_Hotel]

You didn't ask about this part, but if it were me, no way I leave any creditable year I can accrue at 1.7% on the table to go finger-diddle an FMS for a living, let alone for regional wages. Granted, in my case I can't afford that kind of pay cut, so it makes my decision matrix super easy, but I digress on that.

 

[Wrench978]

@Radar Contact @Wrench978 et al are several examples of what's possible with ATC money and the time off to enjoy flying, with a secure (eg federal) pension waiting for them at the end. Good luck!

FWIW, Im not making that sweet CPC pay yet... I simply spent my house savings on a plane when I moved to PR and decided we werent going to buy a house here!

 

[Jim K]

I thought all the aged out controllers who didn't want to retire went to contact towers?

Personally I think it's kind of a cool goal to pursue an airline job as a retirement gig, even if it is "just" for a regional.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Supply and demand. It's that simple. If they are hiring rapidly and you are standing there, ready, your in. One thing in your favor, you won't be so quick to go to escape to the majors when it becomes possible.

 

[hindsight2020]

One thing in your favor, you won't be so quick to go to escape to the majors when it becomes possible.

How do you figure? Do you mean because of accrued seniority and the schedule reset of starting over at another company?

It certainly wouldn't be the pay, as you can surpass RJ CA pay for a sub-10 year guy in less than 3 at most U/LCC/Majors. To say nothing of the work rules. Of course this all assumes domicile neutral. If you are driving to work at your regional, and it'll take you forever to be able to get a a domicile you can drive to work to at a major or LCC, then perhaps finishing out your pilot thing at a regional might make sense.

 

[Oldmanb777]

Regionals have always had a difficult time with attrition. Many have a policy of, "if you ever leave you cannot ever be hired again". I ran into that a lot. They are stepping stones. So finding someone who will likely stay for a longer period of time, or for the duration of their career is very advantageous to them. It slows the revolving door and keeps experienced talent. The regionals we called them commuters in my day were really poor places to work compared to today. When you interviewed the first thing they asked was "how long will you be willing to stay". And prove it. They loved pilots who for some reason probably couldn't go to the majors. Often telling you that if you quit prior to some time frame, often a year, you owed them for all your training. The cot in the back room behind the check in counter was shared and it was your apartment. One asked me if I had a warm sleeping bag? Not an odd question at the time. because they didn't provide a hotel rooms on layovers, and I could sleep in the plane, in Minot, in the winter. And I would need to sign a promissory note for my training that would be cashed in if i stayed even one minute short of a year. It was a good job. Their pay checks didn't bounce, and usually both mags on both engines worked, most of the time.

 

[Doc Holliday]

My advise (FWIW) is to make friends in FAA Flight Check and look at getting in there once you leave ATC.

 

[luvflyin]

Sorry for going off topic, but I always wondered why can you go pro as a pilot into your 50s, but not a controller?

Way back when Controllers were just any ol’ Federal Employee. Retire at 65 or whatever the age was then. Almost no Controllers ever made it. They burned out first. The job requires a certain mental ‘agility’ that deteriorates with age. Controllers started getting fed up. There were no limits on overtime. No rules on time on position between breaks. Eating lunch out of a bag on position was not rare. They started to organize and did a Nationwide sickout on 25 March, 1970. The skys were pretty much empty that day. This caught some attention. PATCO, the union, was formed. Pretty much like any old Union with bargaining and contracts and all that. EXCEPT for the right to strike. Work place issues were dealt with. You could get breaks and abuse of overtime by management was dealt with. Public Law 92-297 was enacted by Congress 16 May, 1972. Mandatory retirement age was set at 56. Maximum age to start out was set at 31 so they could get 20 or so years out of you. Lots more, this is like the Cliff Notes version of The Cliff Notes.

 

[EdFred]

Might want some NC, SC, FL, AL, and TN hours as well, just to show not all your flights are local.

 

[hindsight2020]

Regionals have always had a difficult time with attrition.

To FFD carriers that's not the bug, that's the feature. They do NOT want lifers. The business model is built on the whipsawing and labor-value-theft of "downline" airline pilots. They want cheap meat servos all at the bottom 1/3 of their payscale if they can help it. Their training costs are more than made up on the labor savings. They're not even sponsoring CTP-ATP anymore and still dReAmErS come, so training isn't an issue for them.

The issue with regional staffing has always been the same: When the conga line stops, people start feeling the pain of not being able to move on from uncompetitive compensated positions they're merely financially "enduring", especially those who weren't planning on the pay cut for more than 4 years. Ditto for those who end up getting stuck on junior schedules when the hiring halts again (#2 reason people leave). That is what creates voids the regionals cannot pivot around on a dime; many simply fold rather than increase labor compensation, since that's the very part of the nut the entire spread is being taken from in the first place.

There's a joke that the ideal airline pilot demographic are retired 60 year olds and .mil retirees: They have little to go to mando retirement, they have all the hours, and the deferred compensation benefits and healthcare is already provided by someone else. For full disclosure I belong to one of said categories lest I be accused of hypocrisy. Thankfully, the airlines simply do not have access to enough numbers within said demographics to staff their airlines, otherwise the .civ dreamers would be up the creek when faced with a competing work force of de facto part-time workers and vanity "career changers". Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Doc Holliday]

To FFD carriers that's not the bug, that's the feature. They do NOT want lifers. The business model is built on the whipsawing and labor-value-theft of "downline" airline pilots. They want cheap meat servos all at the bottom 1/3 of their payscale if they can help it. Their training costs are more than made up on the labor savings. They're not even sponsoring CTP-ATP anymore and still dReAmErS come, so training isn't an issue for them.

The issue with regional staffing has always been the same: When the conga line stops, people start feeling the pain of not being able to move on from uncompetitive compensated positions they're merely financially "enduring", especially those who weren't planning on the pay cut for more than 4 years. Ditto for those who end up getting stuck on junior schedules when the hiring halts again (#2 reason people leave). That is what creates voids the regionals cannot pivot around on a dime; many simply fold rather than increase labor compensation, since that's the very part of the nut the entire spread is being taken from in the first place.

There's a joke that the ideal airline pilot demographic are retired 60 year olds and .mil retirees: They have little to go to mando retirement, they have all the hours, and the deferred compensation benefits and healthcare is already provided by someone else. For full disclosure I belong to one of said categories lest I be accused of hypocrisy. Thankfully, the airlines simply do not have access to enough numbers within said demographics to staff their airlines, otherwise the .civ dreamers would be up the creek when faced with a competing work force of de facto part-time workers and vanity "career changers". Don't shoot the messenger.

Once again, airline flying advise from a guy that's never flown for an airline of any type whatsoever.

But hey, he hangs around airline pilot forums so................

 

[Salty]

Once again, airline flying advise from a guy that's never flown for an airline of any type whatsoever.

But hey, he hangs around airline pilot forums so................

Nice ad hom argument. Do you want to dispute anything he said, or is that all you have?

 

[kayoh190]

It's straight from the APC playbook - some guys like to ridicule everyone else's career decisions to make them feel better about theirs. It's the close cousin to Mr. Schadenfreude.

 

[Doc Holliday]

Nice ad hom argument. Do you want to dispute anything he said, or is that all you have?

What he is talking about is what he's gleaned off of airline pilot forums. And all of it is not necessarily correct.

A classic SGOTI explanation of something he has zero experience with. Ya know, typical POA banter.......

 

[hindsight2020]

Lol i know the usual suspects are at it again when the thread replies become disjointed and the thread count reads like people are throwing non sequiturs. Lol. The ignore feature has been a godsend.

 

[Salty]

What he is talking about is what he's gleaned off of airline pilot forums. And all of it is not necessarily correct.

A classic SGOTI explanation of something he has zero experience with. Ya know, typical POA banter.......

OK, so you have nothing to contribute?

 

[Doc Holliday]

OK, so you have nothing to contribute?

I did. See post 22.

 

[dmspilot]

Once again, airline flying advise from a guy that's never flown for an airline

What I read was a description of the regional airline business model, not any advise.

 

[Brad Z]

My advise (FWIW) is to make friends in FAA Flight Check and look at getting in there once you leave ATC.

He's going to need multi engine turbine time before he can consider flight check, unless he's content to sit in the back.

 

[Doc Holliday]

He's going to need multi engine turbine time before he can consider flight check, unless he's content to sit in the back.

Which can be acquired.

 

[Brad Z]

Which can be acquired.

How do you propose he acquire that experience as an air traffic controller?

 

[Doc Holliday]

How do you propose he acquire that experience as an air traffic controller?

Go tp the airport. Make friends with the Part 91 flight departments and start out in the right seat. Pick up a part time Part 135 SIC position will work as well, which typically leads to a PIC position.

 

[noahfong]

... You'll have to figure out a way to get at least 50 hours of multi-engine to get the multi-ATP.

Skywest does NOT require 50 hours of multi-engine nor does it require an ATP. I just checked their website. It's safe to assume the others are the same. But who knows whether that will change in time.

... There was a 62 year old that used to post on here that did it a few years back (takes all kinds...). ... to go finger-diddle an FMS for a living, let alone for regional wages.

I've heard many comments by pilots diminishing the skills required to fly passenger jets. usually those who have never flown for the airlines. Not sure if that's what he meant. But, it's not true....it takes quite a bit of skill to fly these things. The training is intense - I describe it as learning to fly all over again in 7 weeks. Also, don't compare US training to other international training. US-trained pilots are the best, IMHO.

Folks who go into the airlines don't do it for the money, return on investment, etc. It's the same as many careers such as art, writing, teaching, etc. They do it because that's what they want to do. I think many pilots think this ROI way because they held positions of high salaries which paid for flight training and it's hard to give that up. That's fine, but it's also fine to change course and, perhaps take a pay cut to fulfill a dream. (I think it's inspirational whenever someone sacrifices to fulfill a dream.) At Skywest, many pilots just stay there for their careers. Captain's pay is actually pretty good (low six figures even when I was there - enough to even live in the SF bay area). A lot of pilots, once getting enough seniority (just a matter of a couple of years), find life good - especially when based near home and getting nice schedules. They don't want to start all over by moving to another carrier, even a mainline carrier.

You have plenty of time to prepare. Time is most important - 1500 hours (of anything). Make sure the flying experience qualifies you for an ATP. Next is a CPL and multi-engine. Right now, 25 hours. Consider getting an MEI which requires 15 of the needed hours. That way you get something for your money.

BTW... I may be who Hindsight was talking about. I was hired on as an FO just as I turned 63.

Good luck! Don't let others discourage you. Funny, but in my experience, GA pilots were the least supportive of my journey. Airline pilots were most supportive (of pilots). One retired United captain told me, "Just keep going. Things will work themselves out. That's how it worked for all of us." He was right.

 

[jordane93]

The regionals that are hiring right now are hiring at ATP minimums. I’m going to assume that most, if not all the candidates will have more than that. The hiring today will definitely not be the same as it was a few years ago. Desirable candidates will probably have their CFI, turbine time, crew experience, etc. I lucked out in 2016 and got hired because I had a pulse. Hope it all works out for you! PM if you have any questions. I recently moved on from the regionals to a legacy last year when the pandemic hit.

 

[noahfong]

The regionals that are hiring right now are hiring at ATP minimums. I’m going to assume that most, if not all the candidates will have more than that. The hiring today will definitely not be the same as it was a few years ago. Desirable candidates will probably have their CFI, turbine time, crew experience, etc. I lucked out in 2016 and got hired because I had a pulse. Hope it all works out for you! PM if you have any questions. I recently moved on from the regionals to a legacy last year when the pandemic hit.

Yes, that's right now and they're picking from the most qualified for fewer positions, a lot fewer than just a year ago. But he is not applying now. I'm sure hiring will go through several cycles until he is ready. But, if he wants to do it, he should plan on success and not failure. I happen to be optimistic that in the near future, there will be a shortage. Once everyone is vaccinated and traveling again, there will be a big shortage. Lots of candidates (CFI hopefuls I know) have given up hope and moved on to non-flying careers. Lots of pilots have taken early retirement deals and won't be going back. I know I'm sick of sheltering-in-place (although I support it) and can't wait to fly somewhere when it's over. things will go back to normal - number of flights and destinations...and not enough crews.

He's talking about 15 years from now...anyone's guess.