Shawn
En-Route
I doubt that it was a "hate" handoff.
I dunno...every time I have been handed off to LVK Tower I hate what is coming next...that guy is kinda a power trippin jerk!
Can I enter Class C...?
- Thread starter VWGhiaBob
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I dunno...every time I have been handed off to LVK Tower I hate what is coming next...that guy is kinda a power trippin jerk!
write-stuff
En-Route
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Velocity173
If both of the controllers involved are on the same page as to which of them is providing ATC services for a given piece of airspace, then I don't see a comm violation. If they're not, or if the approach controller fails to give a timely frequency change when required, the pilot may not find that out until the alleged violation has already occurred.[/QUOTE]
But it’s a given that if the aircraft is up the final controller’s freq, the pilot is in two way comms with the facility providing ATC service. If the required coordination on the controller’s part doesn’t happen, it’s not the pilot’s fault. Whether or not the required coordination is done is immaterial as far as the pilot is concerned.
The only thing an arriving pilot needs to be concerned with is getting a clearance. If you’re up the facility (GCA/TRACON) providing the ATC service, you meet the two way comm requirement to enter the D but that doesn’t mean you have a clearance to land. Example, one time at my facility we had a C-9 inbound on the PAR. The approach controller completely forgot to coordinate the inbound with tower. Then, the student final controller completely forgot to coordinate prior to entering the D. Both .65 violations. On top of that, somehow the student RFC forgot to get their clearance at 3 miles. Now, up until this point, all of this still meets the comm requirement for the pilot because they’ve continued to maintain two way comms with ATC. Unfortunately, two way comms is not a clearance to land on a runway. The C-9 landed on the runway without a clearance and no one in tower noticed them landing until the C-9 checked in on the freq on rollout. No one in their right mind is going to write up the C-9 for a PD when the ATC side completely dropped the ball. Operational Deviation report and controller suspension. That’s it.
But it’s a given that if the aircraft is up the final controller’s freq, the pilot is in two way comms with the facility providing ATC service. If the required coordination on the controller’s part doesn’t happen, it’s not the pilot’s fault. Whether or not the required coordination is done is immaterial as far as the pilot is concerned.
The only thing an arriving pilot needs to be concerned with is getting a clearance. If you’re up the facility (GCA/TRACON) providing the ATC service, you meet the two way comm requirement to enter the D but that doesn’t mean you have a clearance to land. Example, one time at my facility we had a C-9 inbound on the PAR. The approach controller completely forgot to coordinate the inbound with tower. Then, the student final controller completely forgot to coordinate prior to entering the D. Both .65 violations. On top of that, somehow the student RFC forgot to get their clearance at 3 miles. Now, up until this point, all of this still meets the comm requirement for the pilot because they’ve continued to maintain two way comms with ATC. Unfortunately, two way comms is not a clearance to land on a runway. The C-9 landed on the runway without a clearance and no one in tower noticed them landing until the C-9 checked in on the freq on rollout. No one in their right mind is going to write up the C-9 for a PD when the ATC side completely dropped the ball. Operational Deviation report and controller suspension. That’s it.
Ghery
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Another example is KTIW. It's a Class D airport, under the local floor of the SEA Class B. I recall a number of years ago choosing an altitude that would put me through KTIW's airspace and when I called them up they told me to contact SEA approach as they owned that airspace due to an LOA (which, of course, I had no knowledge). It happens. Good learning experience for your student.
RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
I recently had an unusual (at least to me since I almost always fly ifr) situation. I was VFR flight following and talking to center as I approached Abilene (TX)’s class C. I was about to penetrate the C and never got handed to TRACON. So I confirmed with center that I was good to transition the Charlie while talking to them. I was 99% confident but since I expected to be talking to approach at that point, and the frequency was not terribly busy, it seemed prudent to double check.
I'm probably wrong, but my take is that this is exactly the reason the ATC manual puts the burden on Approach to coordinate or hand off transitions through the Class D airports they serve when they are providing flight following services to VFR aircraft.
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Velocity173
My brother works ABI TRACON. Center doesn’t coordinate C transitions, only “point outs” if clipping their airspace. If you were about to penetrate, they either forgot about you or you didn’t hear their transmission to switch. At any rate, I’d say it would definitely be prudent to query center since like in the CC letter, you were not up the frequency for the ATC facility providing service.
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RudyP
Cleared for Takeoff
Yeah, that's exactly why I checked and he confirmed that I was good to transition the Charlie. Mind you I was going to barely clip it at the very top of the altitude range but still...
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
A good deal of confusion in this thread.
Would just ask, say you are coming up on a Class C airspace, you are not on FF, you look up the approach frequency, call them and then?
If “clearance” is not needed, assume you report position, altitude, heading, and mention your distance to class C. How would that communication go?
Shawn
En-Route
"Norcal, Skylane 12345, 15 miles Southeast of SJC, Flight Following request to PAO 3000' ". Done.
You are then talking to TRACON (AKA: Approach/Departure) which is the facility providing service to that Charlie thus granting you authorization to enter along your route barring any instruction to the contrary. No further communication or request necessary if your route of flight takes you through C other than to follow any subsequent instructions.
Now, you can throw in a "request to transition Charlie" if that helps clarify your intentions and desired route, but there is zero regulatory requirement to do so. As soon as Approach acknowledges your tail # you then have authorization to enter Charlie at will (again, subject to further instructions should they come but they are not necessary to enter).
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I say "Norcal Approach, Skylane 12345, 15 miles southeast of San Jose at 6500, VFR to Palo Alto with information Whiskey." Then I descend as needed to stay below the bravo until they hand me off to Moffett.
If I'm on the northeast side of San Jose's final when I call, they give me an altitude assignment and tell me to cross San Jose midfield.
@Shawn and @Palmpilot gave the essence of the communication from the pilot side. But the controller side is equally important.
The US rule requires the establishment and maintenance of 2-way communication. That requires not only a response from ATC, but the use of your call sign. To use Shawn's example, a response starting with "Skylane 12345, NorCal Approach..." is all you need for entry. "Aircraft calling NorCal Approach..." is not enough.
Of course, we also have to obey ATC instructions, including any instruction to remain clear of the airspace. It's not unusual to get 2-way communication and an instruction to remain clear or instructions limiting location or altitude such as remaining west of a road or landmark that is outside the boundary.
What I mostly wonder in this type of thread is experience level. I recall an Angel Flight where I was meeting another pilot who was very hesitant flying into Amarillo TX, which I rank up there among the quietest airports I've been to. I think one airplane other than us landed or took off during the hour+ we were there. But he had to overcome his discomfort to fly in.
OTOH, my private training was at a small nontowered airport but my instructor and I did dual flights into the nearest Class C (actually an ARSA back then). My long student solo took included a landing at a different one ("follow the 37. Cleared to land" was one of a number of things making that flight particularly memorable). As an instructor I can't imagine not taking a student into Class C, including a landing, if within reasonable cross country distance.
LongRoadBob
Cleared for Takeoff
Thanks, but still not clear. Had to look up PAO, and seems to be government owned aircraft???
My limited experience is we fly under the class C airspace so far (its at 2500’, we fly 2200’) is with the class C are that is also a designated airworks. We contact approach, “request airworks foxtrot, 4000’ and below” and if it’s not in use I seem to recall we just get a repeat “airworks 4000’ and below” for acknowledgement.
So would if you were wanting to fly through, would it be ok with “request FL 35 DIRECT South” or something like that?
Shawn
En-Route
3,500’, not FL 35
There is no need to “request” anything. Absent restrictions or instructions you do not need permission on FF for route and altitude, that is entirely at Pilot’s discretion while VFR...only the courtesy to advise ATC of your intentions. Once you are done airwork, just advise ATC of what to expect from you next.
“SoCal, Skyhawk 345, done airwork headed for XYZ”
If that route takes you through C you already have authorization to enter since you have established Communcations with Approach. If they want something different, they will tell you.
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Velocity173
3,500. I believe he’s overseas. And if he’s in the country (Norway) I think he is, the C dimensions are a whole lot different. Requires a clearance as well.
He's referring to an airport. He wants flight following to Palo Alto airport in California. PAO is the identifier.
people often forget you are not in the US. Keep in mind that much of what we say hear deals with the airspace rules and flight procedures here. They don't necessarily apply in any other country. We all(?) have alphabet airspace but the restrictions and procedures within them, especially for VFR operations, can be very different.
[QUOTE="midlifeflyer, post: 2846523, member:
My long student solo took included a landing at a different one ("follow the 37. Cleared to land" was one of a number of things making that flight particularly memorable). As an instructor I can't imagine not taking a student into Class C, including a landing, if within reasonable cross country distance.[/QUOTE]
Hard to transfer the experience when the 250-1500 hour wonder CFI has never been near a Class B or Class C airport.
My long student solo took included a landing at a different one ("follow the 37. Cleared to land" was one of a number of things making that flight particularly memorable). As an instructor I can't imagine not taking a student into Class C, including a landing, if within reasonable cross country distance.[/QUOTE]
Hard to transfer the experience when the 250-1500 hour wonder CFI has never been near a Class B or Class C airport.
My CFI was a young guy who was working his way to non-instruction aviation career. Most of the young CFIs I have known since then have been conscientious, knew how to get around C and B airspace, and taught it to their students.
I've never seen the correlation you have and can't even imagine it with something as simple as this.