Can a CFI Challenge me

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Benw

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Benw
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly

anyone in the Colorado region up for the challenge?
 
Well, good question, but I want someone to prove to me in the air that I am not fit to fly based on a diagnosis of ADHD,hydrocephalus, surgery etc.

I am not posting to create a huge controversial topic, just maybe a CFI that is willing to take me up for a few lessons. What maneuvers require divided attention, scanning, memory. Etc.

again, not a controversial topic, just a shout out to Colorado CFIs

take me up, talk planes, challenge me a bit, I’ll buy you lunch whatever. Just get me flying.
 
Interesting: For arguments sake, let's throw out learning to land the plane as that can take a while.

I would still think it would take several flights to build up to a valid test. For example, fairly soon after you are officially signed off you might try to venture out on a trip that has you going through a busy Bravo transition. So now you will be Aviating, Navigating and Communicating - all on your own or with non-pilot passengers. In this scenario your workload is going to be pretty high. You'll be processing what last alititude and or heading they gave you. Trying to listen to the arrival ATIS while listening to the controller (dual radio at the same time). Maintaining the heading and altitude they gave you. Tracking a VOR. Constantly scanning engine instruments and finding emergency landing sites. Looking for traffic. Figuring out the proper runway based on winds. Etc, etc, etc.

I it would be hard to get you fully into that level without several lessons and a lot of radio time. Then again there are some great instructors out there. And I am guessing a fairly decent population of people with the diagnosis you listed would do just fine.
 
A CFI is not a medical professional.
They should not, nor should you ask them to, evaluate your medical fitness to fly. Or embark on medical research in the air.
That's not their job.
 
Mason said:
What would work is a sim session where your CFI could load you up to the breaking point. I think you would be surprised at how easy it would be.
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yes! Where though. Who? Email? phone number?
 
There is a pretty well documented pathway to getting your medical with a history of ADHD. Contact your AME and get started on them instead of trying to prove nothing. Or just ask for a flight lesson.
 
Benw said:
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly

anyone in the Colorado region up for the challenge?
Click to expand...
If I'm ever in Colorado I'll fly with you. There are only two outcomes though. One is you suck and I tell you why you suck perversely and specifically. The other is you're good and you find out that the system sucks and you could be a pilot but there isn't much you can do about it except spend a lot of money jumping through a lot of hoops maybe to find out they still won't let you be Pilot In Command...

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p1l0t said:
If I'm ever in Colorado I'll fly with you. There are only two outcomes though. One is you suck and I tell you why you suck perversely and specifically

that is what I want

The other is you're good and you find out that the system sucks and you could be a pilot but there isn't much you can do about it except spend a lot of money jumping through a lot of hoops maybe to find out they still won't let you be Pilot In Command...

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Well I have relatives there and I do jet trips there on occasion so you never know. You're paying for renting plane though.

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p1l0t said:
Well I have relatives there and I do jet trips there on occasion so you never know. You're paying for renting plane though.

that always the plan sir. Like every flight lesson
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It’s not up to your CFI to make that decision. Doing what you’ve proposed here wouldn’t serve any benefit or prove any kind of point. It all boils down to the FAA and their standards to allow an individual to hold a medical. If you don’t meet those standards, than there’s nothing you can do.
 
I know almost nothing about the details of ADHD. But my thought is that someone with ADHD might actually be pretty good at learning to fly. There is enough going on that it would likely hold their interest.

However how well would one handle a 3 hour flight of just holding altitude and heading. Would they be more more likely to make decisions that would decrease the safety of the flight. Impulsive Acrobatics, low altitude flying?

Also if taking ADHD medication what are the side effects of this?

Rhetorical questions for me, just thoughts to consider and investigate for those that are interested.

Brian
 
Sounds to me like the OP would just like to try this and see for himself how difficult the attentional issues are in some types of flying. Sort of a “show me” attitude. Seems like it can be done safely and might help him feel more comfortable with the restrictions/rules.
 
Benw said:
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly

anyone in the Colorado region up for the challenge?
Click to expand...

Benw said:
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly

anyone in the Colorado region up for the challenge?
Click to expand...

What makes you think that a CFI knows anything about ADHD? If you have ADHD, then you need to discuss it with the AME.
 
The question is do you really have ADHD? Many are over diagnosed based on un-qualified doctors. Adderall the DEA classifies it as a Schedule 2 substance I can see why the FAA has issues with people who are prescribed it.
 
Benw said:
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly

anyone in the Colorado region up for the challenge?
Click to expand...

Not possible to draw a conclusion either way after only one flight, or even several flights, so your challenge seems pointless.

I'm sure the FAA has their reasons for preventing persons with ADHD from becoming pilots, though I don't know the specific science/data/analysis behind it.

It's rare, but occasionally I get asked if so-and-so is/could be a good pilot despite factor X. I have no idea, I'm just a CFI, not a doctor, psychiatrist, psychologist, or fortune teller.
 
I'll tell you a couple of stories. Not sure if they help or not just my experience.

I flew with a kid who had a heart condition. Couldn't get a medical. He wanted one. He was a good pilot. The kid has as much chance if not more so than the average student. Smart, and good with the stick and rudder. I don't why they took this kids money in the first place but the guys I flew for don't exist anymore in name or location anyway. Anyhow we got up to pre-solo and I was confident I could sign off on him IF he could get his medical. He wore some kind of crazy heart monitor and we took a Piper Tomahawk to 12,000ft for 20 minutes one a short cross country I had to beg ATC for the altitude we were too slow for the route up there but they gave it to us I told them it was an ops check... He got all kinds of data, super confident. I knew better but the kid had heart (no pun intended) and I couldn't say no. I never heard from him again. Maybe he's dead, maybe he's a doctor, maybe he's flying drones for the military I have no idea... but I never heard from him again. (I think I did follow up a couple times but he was tied up in bureaucracy both times).

Another story is guy who I checked out (I'm the Chief CFI in our little flying club unpaid position) who was at the time (kind of is) an awesome pilot still. Thousands of hours, former military guy, better pilot than I'll ever be. He had a stroke or something. Now he talks weird. Like just says random things that don't make sense. Radio calls to ATC are mind boggling. His stick and rudder skills are still instinctive. Lands like a champ everytime. Nobody would clear him for it though if it was him actually talking on the radio probably. It's a damn shame. The worst part is he wants a BFR. He forgets too and still calls me sometimes wanting one. Makes me tear up sometimes. The good news he can't get a medical and that makes it so I don't have to try and communicate to a guy with better stick and rudder skills than me who can't communicate period why he can't be PIC I just tell him he has to get the medical first. He is too stubborn to just fly $100 hamburgers with the rest of the club guys and have a good damn time. We would never turn him down. He wants the BFR though everytime he calls.

Neither of these stories are you. ADHD as some of the other guys have eluded might even be an obtainable thing medically. I have no idea. What I'm trying to let you know though is that being legit able can be illegit to the beuracracy. Also having a legit reason that you can't shouldn't discourage you from getting up in the air when you can (even if it means not being the guy who signs the stupid book).

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I think the OP’s title and post was unnecessarily provocative, but I think I get his point. He thinks he can do it, but before he jousts with the FAA windmill, he is open to be proven wrong.

To the OP, I would say just go start taking flying lessons. Probably somewhere between lesson 3 and 6 you’ll get a good feel for whether or not you can do it. And maybe you’ll decide you can’t, or don’t want , to do it for reasons totally unrelated to ADHD. If you are up to it, then keep chugging along; lack of a medical is not an impediment until you need to solo.

Good luck.
 
I have no idea what the OP's particular situation is, but the problem with ADHD, OCD, and other so-called "spectrum" conditions is that they're really part of the normal range of human personality; but we (or rather doctors) draw an arbitrary line and declare one side "normal" and the other side a "disorder". Then you have a bright kid who's bored in school and acting up so the parents and a cooperative doctor declare him ADHD, give him Ritalin, and no more discipline problem... and you've screwed his chances for doing something he may love and may be really good at.

A lot of those borderline cases, ranging from the bored kid to an adult who really can use a bit of chemical help to focus, may not be good candidates for an airline seat, but may well do just fine (even superior) as a private pilot who just likes to fly around on a nice day, get the $100 hamburger, maybe doing some aerobatics, flying sailplanes, bush planes, etc., and avoiding complex ATC situations (as many private pilots do!). Fortunately Sport Pilot, despite its warts, has made that possible... as long as the prospective pilot learns about it in time to avoid taking and failing a medical.

Oh look! Something shiny! :eek:
 
I support your desire to learn to fly and do hope it works out for you.

There is no need to travel around the country looking for a "tough" CFI to try to "break" you. Just go to any local flight school at any local airport and ask for a discovery flight. Or a few lessons. Be upfront about your ADHD diagnosis and that you may not be able to get a medical, but you want to see what flying is like. No school should have a problem with that; teaching people to fly is their reason for existence.

You don't need fly an ILS to minimums to prove anything. Quite frankly, any CFI out there can throw enough at any pilot, new OR experienced, to "break" them. It's even easier if you're not trying to be realistic. As someone who (presumably) hasn't flown before, it's not going to take an ILS to minimums - virtually all new students are completely task-saturated just by keeping the airplane straight and level and maybe running checklists or other extra tasks. In fact, the main task of a CFI on the first few flights is actually to LIMIT the number of things the student has to do themselves, specifically so they aren't task saturated and can therefore learn something.
 
Benw said:
yes! Where though. Who? Email? phone number?
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You're talking as though finding a CFI or getting one to take you up in a plane is difficult. Its not difficult at all. Just a few simple steps.
1. Call literally any flight school.
2. Schedule a lesson.
3. Show up.
4. Pay money.

Pretty simple process.
 
I must say that for certain things (ADHD, physical disabilities, etc.) I think that a SODA should be offered, rather than going through hoops that don't really show if one can fly.
 
Juliet Hotel said:
You're talking as though finding a CFI or getting one to take you up in a plane is difficult. Its not difficult at all. Just a few simple steps.
1. Call literally any flight school.
2. Schedule a lesson.
3. Show up.
4. Pay money.

Pretty simple process.
Click to expand...
True; you don't need to tell them anything. Just say you want to see if flying is for you.
 
Some people will never become a certificated pilot, no matter how badly they want to... Then there are those who are pilots, but for whatever reason they are no longer capable of acting as PIC. Whether it be for medical reasons, intelligence reasons, or even lack of motivation. However, this does not necessarily mean they cannot fly. There is nothing in the regulations that puts a maximum on the number of "Dual Received" hours one has in their logbook. I have had 'students' who knew they would never get to log PIC time but really enjoyed flying. All it takes is a CFI who is willing to coach you enough to keep you both safe and legal while in the air but understands that your only goal is to fly with them every now and then and proficiency is not a goal.

If this describes you and this is something you want to do, discuss it up front with your CFI. Let them know that all you want to do is fly now and then and not necessarily advance toward a checkride. Obviously the CFI will need to agree with this plan. Some organizations do not understand this concept and will give CFI a hard time if they are not pushing students out the door in a 'timely' fashion, regardless the students' goals and desires.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
I must say that for certain things (ADHD, physical disabilities, etc.) I think that a SODA should be offered, rather than going through hoops that don't really show if one can fly.
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And for some things, there is. I've got several friends who are paralized, missing limbs, or an eye. With a medical checkride they are all flying on (in a couple of cases, a first class) medical.

However, for psychiatric diagnoses it's going to be hard to do that. There's no "stress test" that's accepted that is going to prove that you're safe to fly. It's going to take the battery of ground tests including all the usual psychological tests and evaluation and some specialized things like COGSCREEN.
 
Whether or not you were, or are on actual medication makes the biggest difference. That stuff is highly traceable. Some psychologist who said you might have ADHD in high school is not on your permanent health record most likely. However many of the medications are no fly items.

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Benw said:
Ok so I really want a flight instructor to take me up and PROVE that Someone with ADHD is not fit to fly?
Click to expand...

Given the wide span of symptoms of ADHD this seems a topic ripe for an Embry Riddle doctoral candidate to propose as a thesis/study.
 
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Pugs said:
Given the wide span of symptoms of ADHD this seems a topic ripe for an Embry Riddle doctoral candidate to propose as a thesis/study.
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That might get him his sheepskin, but it won't mean squat to the FAA.
 
flyingron said:
And that evidence would come from a credentialed person, not some Riddle gradual student.
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It would take a whole lot of evidence and a well done study might be enough to interest other people, including credentialed professionals. This stuff moves very slowly and sometimes never but that doesn't mean we shouldn't understand it and, if warranted through solid analysis, try and change it.
 
I’m no doctor, not a CFI either, but it seems to me that ADHD itself may not be a problem. Any drugs that might be taken as a “remedy” could easily be a show stopper. I think a consultation with a savvy medical examiner is what needs to happen. Maybe even a little correspondence with Dr. Chien on this forum could answer the question.
 
As far as the FAA is concerned BOTH are the problem. Even if you have the diagnosis and have never been medicated, there are still hoops to jump through.
 
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