CAMI Altitude Chamber

Tristar

Pattern Altitude
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Tristar
On Thursday I received a wonderful opportunity to take a trip to the Mike Monroney Aeronautical Center (FAA headquarters) and experience training as well as "flight" in their altitude chamber.

The Aeronautical Center reminds me of an air force base in the fact you have to receive passes for both you and your car. It's also separated into different areas of operations. CAMI is one of them. CAMI stands for Civil Aerospace Medical Institute which is where studies are made with many aspects such as aircraft impact tests and pilot physiology. Since they offer free hypoxia and altitude chamber classes, our instructors take classes each year.

The first portion of the training consisted of a four hour class starting at 8 in the morning. Many aspects are covered such as how our lungs process oxygen, different types of hypoxia, its symptoms and time of useful consciousness at different altitudes. We got a 10 minute break each hour which was very nice to be able to get up once in a while. We went to lunch around 12 and walked through an underground tunnel system underneath the street to the cafeteria which was a neat idea to stay out of the weather.

After lunch, we were prebriefed on what would happen in the altitude chamber itself.

The chamber looks like a small trailer sized room they placed in their testing center which reminded me of a large warehouse. There is enough room for 20 people plus chairs for 2 instructors. Once we sat down, and instructed how to use our mask, we began our first climb at 3,000 fpm. The first altitude was around 7,000 ft to see how everyone's ears adjusted to the change. If someone had a cold or ears could not be cleared, he/she would be strongly suggested to sit it out. After that, we climbed in pressure altitude to 25,000 ft. We were given a worksheet with different simple problems such as addition problems, mazes, and to write our name in cursive. Our group was separated into halves so that we could look at each other. Once we got to 25,000 ft, the other side was instructed to remove their masks. Our side then recorded their reactions while they worked the problems. The guy across from me turned white with blue lips, a common symptom. Once they put on their mask and recovered from their experiences, it was our turn.

My personal reaction: I removed my oxygen mask and within 30 seconds had become dizzy and it looked like I was watching everyone through a horrible TV reception. The static was all colors of grays, whites, and even bright blues. Within the second minute, I was working on my math problems as well as writing my name. Then I began to shake uncontrollably and felt my entire face turn flush. The instructor saw this and said, "Tristan you need to put on your mask." I had heard him, but the comprehension wasn't there. If I had a few seconds longer, I'm not sure if I would have picked it up eventually or just looked at the instructor like he was crazy. He didn't give me that time and put my mask on. Whats interesting is when he did, the plastic piece that covers your mouth, folded over so I couldn't breath. While hypoxic, I had to remove it and fix it. So even though my thought process had slowed, I still knew what was going on. Within a few seconds the dizziness went away.

I learned later that everyone was pretty amazed at how purple I turned. I looked back at my worksheet and apparently on a long addition problem, 6+5 = 82 and my last name is VanNocker but I wrote in cursive VnVanVannnnn.

After everyone had their masks securely in place, we descended to a lower altitude, we were given a color wheel, and the lights lowered, and then instructed to note the difference in color with and without oxygen. If you will remember from your training, your eyes need more oxygen at night as well as your rods which are more sensitive at night than your cones (cones see color, while rods are used for peripheral vision and light variations). After I took my mask off, the yellows started to turn white and the oranges and reds blended together. I could tell there was a difference in shade, but color was hard to differentiate. This is great in relating what could actually happen if you tried to read a sectional chart. I was also still recovering from shaking during our 25,000 ft experience. This lasted all of about 5-10 minutes. In conclusion, we slowly descended back to our normal Oklahoma altitude of 1,000 ft.

All in all; I highly recommend this to anyone who has the opportunity. Its one thing to say you need oxygen at certain altitudes, its another to experience why. Hypoxia influences everyone differently which is why you have to understand the effects you read out of a book but know it could affect you slightly different than it would your buddy. I have to admit that it hits you quicker than you'd expect and if you don’t know what to look for, you could pass it as being tired or just feeling sick. If I had to put my experience into a lump sum, I would mix being little drunk and severely dehydrated (and no I wasn't). It was an awesome learning experience and I'm glad I now know what to personally look for.
 
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Great writeup, Tristan! We've been hoping to do that for a while now, but haven't yet gotten a round tuit. How long after you applied for the program was it until you received a date, and then how long from then until the actual date? Did you fly yourself in and, if so, what are the facilities like fr GA and local transportation?
 
Grant, we drove. I went with a class that was already going so I'm not sure of the answers. However, Eric, our instructor for the day, did say to just give them a call and their classes are rarely full so they can usually squeeze extras in. Classes are offered every Tuesday and Thursday. As far as if you wanted to take an entire class down there, you would just have to call them. You can contact CAMI at (405) 954-4837.
 
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They gave us a certificate saying we've received the physiological training required by the FAA. I believe that's half of the requirement for the high altitude endorsement. I taped it in my logbook.
 
Yeah, that counts as the ground training required for the endorsement. Actual flight training is required too. As I recall, they also offer a survival course there. That might be fun too!
 
Tristan, would you scan your arithmetic and task sheet and post it?

People won't believe it until they see it.
Did you say hi to Rogers Shaw?
 
I did the altitude training course at Fairchild air force base a couple years ago. Some pilots from the Seattle Glider Council set this up and arranged for us to go as a group. I to can strongly recommend it.

I really liked the video they showed of the air force pilot at 35,000 feet. They gave him a deck of card and asked him to draw one card at a time, look at it, show it to the group and tell the group what card it was. After about a minute he drew a 2 of hearts (as I recall) after that every card he drew he called it a 2 of hearts no matter what card it actually was.

My experience was similar to Tristan's, but my symptoms are much more subtle. My vision tends to narrow and I get a slight head ache. I also noticed on the test which I was able to complete, that in reviewing I tended to do the same thing the air force pilot did, toward the end of the test my answers tended to be the same, no matter what the question was.

The other thing I noticed, when we used the oximeters that a few pilots had, that even just a slight drop in our blood oxygen levels tened to significantly increase our heart rates. After my experience last summer I have decided that this increase heart rate for an extended period of time can cause fatigue.

Last summer I had a oxygen line fail in my glider and it was about an hour into a flight at about 14000 feet before I discovered it. My symptoms were a headache and nasea. I was able to fix the problem as soon as I discovered it but even so terminated the flight early. And even though it was only about a 2.5 hour flight as opposed to the typical 4 or 5 hour flights I had been doing that week, I was absolutely exhausted and slept for about 2 hours after landing before I felt better.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
Brian,

I understand the exhaustion. I slept for about 4 hours when we got back and was still able to fall asleep at my normal time.

BTW, this is the video we watched and I'm sure your referring to. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qLQMupV3DLk

The reactions you see from both the video and real life are actually funny but only because you're in a controlled environment. By the end, everyone has a blank look on their face when you ask them a question. The instructors were having an absolute blast with us, but they were great about putting on masks when we failed to catch it in time.
 
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Yeah, that counts as the ground training required for the endorsement. Actual flight training is required too. As I recall, they also offer a survival course there. That might be fun too!
Yes they do grant. They use a pool with divers. I'm not sure of the specifics but it sounded like a worthwhile course as well.
 
Cool! It's such a good course - I wish everybody would do it so that people would understand hypoxia. Too many pilots don't.... "I'm ok at 12,500 for 4 hours...because I feel ok".

I did my day at Beale AFB. Got to talk to a U2 pilot. And, you get to wear the same helmet and mask that fighter pilots do. (512)-LEOFAST is a good number to know, too, in case you ever get into a decompression situation....

-Felix
 
Glad you had a good time. It has been my experience that it is very important the night before your training to have a good meal, Mexican is the best, a few beers, and may a pickled pepper or egg. Then your really will get the full benefit of the altitude chamber!!
 
(512)-LEOFAST is a good number to know, too, in case you ever get into a decompression situation....
...except that it changed to area code 210 a few years back with the rest of San Antonio. I wouldn't be surprised if the 512 number was reserved and forwarded to the right place, but I wouldn't depend on it.
 
I had almost no symptoms in the chamber or at least was compensating. At first I thought this was good. Later after flying gliders in Colorado I realized it's NOT good. A subtle degradation of a highly complex task can be life threatening. Brief hypoxia can degrade later performance at lower altitudes. My personal rule is O2 at 10k, same as the air force.
 
Scott, remind me not to invite you on any chamber flights!

They did tell us "beware of what you're eating" but "to just let it out if you have to!"
 
I did this course at McDill NAS in florida many years ago in preparation for wave soaring. My symptoms were similar to Brian's in that when I put the mask back on the recovery of peripheral vision (and color) was dramatic. You don't notice these things going away, but they come back fast once the partial pressure of O2 gets to be what we're used to. I was quite worthless on the written test.
In our ride they did one more demonstration. That was a rapid decompression. You got in a small subroom of the chamber, sealed from the big room. They pump down the big room and then quickly equalize them. I don't remember what pressure altitude this gave, but the fog forming & the noise were really something. Not at all like they depict decompressions in the movies. For the civilians they just did a rapid decompression. We were told that in the military version they demonstrate an explosive decompression (tough on the ears).
A very worthwhile experience. Thinking of Payne Stewart I think I'll try to take it again.
 
Cool! It's such a good course - I wish everybody would do it so that people would understand hypoxia. Too many pilots don't.... "I'm ok at 12,500 for 4 hours...because I feel ok".

In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.

On my trip out west, I had several legs in the oxygen altitudes. At first I dutifully put on the O2 on the way up and monitored my O2sat. However, I still felt like I wasn't getting enough air - The cannula restricted the flow of air somewhat, so I had to work harder to breathe the same volume of air. And my O2sat would still drop down to the 86-88 range.

I found that at lower altitudes such as 14,500, I could make my O2sat higher *without* O2 than I could with it! With the O2 I had to work pretty hard to breathe enough volume. Without the O2, I simply focused on actually using my entire lung capacity, taking long, deep breaths. I was able to get my O2sat back up to being consistently 92 or greater with no oxygen.

On the last day, I went to 17,500 feet. Here, I found what works best to keep my O2sat up: Expel as much air as possible, inhale the first bit through the cannula, enough volume that the O2 was at least starting to get into my lungs, and then for about the last 2/3 to 3/4 of the inhalation, deeply through my mouth, allowing me to get a large volume of plain air to help push the oxygen all the way out to my alveoli. Exhale fully, repeat.

As adults we normally use very little of our lung capacity. Concentrating on actually using all of it can help immensely. :yes:
 
In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.

On my trip out west, I had several legs in the oxygen altitudes. At first I dutifully put on the O2 on the way up and monitored my O2sat. However, I still felt like I wasn't getting enough air - The cannula restricted the flow of air somewhat, so I had to work harder to breathe the same volume of air. And my O2sat would still drop down to the 86-88 range.

I found that at lower altitudes such as 14,500, I could make my O2sat higher *without* O2 than I could with it! With the O2 I had to work pretty hard to breathe enough volume. Without the O2, I simply focused on actually using my entire lung capacity, taking long, deep breaths. I was able to get my O2sat back up to being consistently 92 or greater with no oxygen.

On the last day, I went to 17,500 feet. Here, I found what works best to keep my O2sat up: Expel as much air as possible, inhale the first bit through the cannula, enough volume that the O2 was at least starting to get into my lungs, and then for about the last 2/3 to 3/4 of the inhalation, deeply through my mouth, allowing me to get a large volume of plain air to help push the oxygen all the way out to my alveoli. Exhale fully, repeat.

As adults we normally use very little of our lung capacity. Concentrating on actually using all of it can help immensely. :yes:
That's interesting Kent. But if you're spending so much brain capacity thinking about how to breathe, how much is left for how to fly the airplane? Luckily that will normally come in cruise at altitude, when it tends to be lower workload.
 
In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.

With a cannula? That sounds like the typical struggles with pressure breathing.

Perhaps you have unusually tiny nostrals
 
Kent, 25000 feet (which is the altitude of the CAMI pressure run) is VERY very different from 14,500. There isn't enough gas up there for ANY sort of breathing to make a difference. You don't last long, and I have been to altitude school. I lasted maybe....a tad longer than Tris. NOT MUCH, though.

Tristan, they're using the same sheet still. Very amusing that the first TWO math problems are EXACTLY the same.

I'd love to see your comments on the backside, too. Roger Shaw has seen it all..... :) :aureola:
 

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I've been wanting to do a chamber ride sometime. Would there be any interest in a OKC Chamber fly-out sometime?
 
That's interesting Kent. But if you're spending so much brain capacity thinking about how to breathe, how much is left for how to fly the airplane? Luckily that will normally come in cruise at altitude, when it tends to be lower workload.

Heh... Well, much like the stimulus package, it doesn't matter as the "money" (effort) spent in thinking about breathing will be returned as "tax revenue" (increased brain capacity). :D

In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.

With a cannula? That sounds like the typical struggles with pressure breathing.

Perhaps you have unusually tiny nostrals

Actually, I felt like the tubes on the cannula were too small. I think that with the flow rate I was attempting to get, they're just too small to be effective enough on their own. Doing just the deep breathing (even through my nose without the cannula in) gave me a higher O2sat.
 
I've been wanting to do a chamber ride sometime. Would there be any interest in a OKC Chamber fly-out sometime?
Heck yes!

The info is here.

But note:
http://www.faa.gov/pilots/training/airman_education/aerospace_physiology/cami_enrollment/recommendation/ said:
Recommendation
Following your participation in the altitude chamber flight, you should not fly as a primary crew member for a period of 12 hours.

And I wouldn't mind doing this, either, so maybe make is a two-day event (arriving the evening before).
 
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Kent, 25000 feet (which is the altitude of the CAMI pressure run) is VERY very different from 14,500. There isn't enough gas up there for ANY sort of breathing to make a difference. You don't last long, and I have been to altitude school. I lasted maybe....a tad longer than Tris. NOT MUCH, though.

Tristan, they're using the same sheet still. Very amusing that the first TWO math problems are EXACTLY the same.

I'd love to see your comments on the backside, too. Roger Shaw has seen it all..... :) :aureola:

Yeah I didn't last very long either. There was one person who just went out. And, as previously noted - not having any symptoms is a very bad thing. I can tell when I start getting "tingles" that I'm getting hypoxic, but even so I prefer to fly with a PulseOx.
 
In the chamber I endured the full duration of the max altitude without O2 and could sign my name, carry on a conversation and wasn't much worse at math than I normally am. I could tell I wasn't "normal" but didn't feel much different than after a couple beers.

The real heads up for me was during my checkout flights for the glider operation at Boulder. Early afternoon I went up with one check pilot and we soared around for about and hour and a half in strong conditions over the foot hills between 10 and 14K. We did NOT exceed the time limit above 12500 for no O2 but spent most of the flight close to 12. No problem.

About an hour and a half later I took another flight with the chief pilot. During tow he had me demonstrate maneuvering around the towplane wake, something I'd done countless times with total ease. We were no more than 7500msl and carrying on a conversation as I blithely maneuvered from one position to the next. I'm chatting away when he interrupts and says, "you're not impressing me here" as he takes control just as the rope breaks!

I'm seriously embarrassed and totally shocked that I've lost control of a maneuver I thought I could do in my sleep!

It took me weeks to realized I was suffering from cumulative hypoxia fatigue (and years to recover from the embarrassment).

After I'd worked and flown there for many weeks I saw a pattern in my fatigue level after work. If I'd flown a bunch below O2 levels I was wiped out in the evening. I repeatedly fell asleep on a hard wooden bench at dinner! I attributed it to the sun, dehydration, and workload. However, days when we'd be above 14k and using oxygen most of the time I felt fine in the evening.

It took a while to sink in. I was fit, and knew I was quite hardy in the chamber so why should oxygen have anything to do with it? Eventually I started using 02 whenever working above 10K and I felt like a new man.

So when ever I hear people talking about how they don't really need oxygen as much as the rest of us mortals, or that time they snuck up to 18k for a few minutes in a strong thermal, or fill in the blank... I think "BULL#$*t" Usually the person talking doesn't look as fit and healthy as I do.

Yea, you can do it, and you can get away with it, but does that make you smart and cool?

Not suggesting that anyone here has this attitude but many of us have run into this kind of talk.
 
In the chamber I endured the full duration of the max altitude without O2 and could sign my name, carry on a conversation and wasn't much worse at math than I normally am. I could tell I wasn't "normal" but didn't feel much different than after a couple beers.

The real heads up for me was during my checkout flights for the glider operation at Boulder. Early afternoon I went up with one check pilot and we soared around for about and hour and a half in strong conditions over the foot hills between 10 and 14K. We did NOT exceed the time limit above 12500 for no O2 but spent most of the flight close to 12. No problem.

About an hour and a half later I took another flight with the chief pilot. During tow he had me demonstrate maneuvering around the towplane wake, something I'd done countless times with total ease. We were no more than 7500msl and carrying on a conversation as I blithely maneuvered from one position to the next. I'm chatting away when he interrupts and says, "you're not impressing me here" as he takes control just as the rope breaks!

I'm seriously embarrassed and totally shocked that I've lost control of a maneuver I thought I could do in my sleep!

It took me weeks to realized I was suffering from cumulative hypoxia fatigue (and years to recover from the embarrassment).

After I'd worked and flown there for many weeks I saw a pattern in my fatigue level after work. If I'd flown a bunch below O2 levels I was wiped out in the evening. I repeatedly fell asleep on a hard wooden bench at dinner! I attributed it to the sun, dehydration, and workload. However, days when we'd be above 14k and using oxygen most of the time I felt fine in the evening.

It took a while to sink in. I was fit, and knew I was quite hardy in the chamber so why should oxygen have anything to do with it? Eventually I started using 02 whenever working above 10K and I felt like a new man.

So when ever I hear people talking about how they don't really need oxygen as much as the rest of us mortals, or that time they snuck up to 18k for a few minutes in a strong thermal, or fill in the blank... I think "BULL#$*t" Usually the person talking doesn't look as fit and healthy as I do.

Yea, you can do it, and you can get away with it, but does that make you smart and cool?

Not suggesting that anyone here has this attitude but many of us have run into this kind of talk.

Well said Matt. I've seen much of this macho altitude talk as well and just don't get it. If I fly at 10k for a hour I can honestly say that I feel the fatigue.
 
Kent, 25000 feet (which is the altitude of the CAMI pressure run) is VERY very different from 14,500. There isn't enough gas up there for ANY sort of breathing to make a difference. You don't last long, and I have been to altitude school. I lasted maybe....a tad longer than Tris. NOT MUCH, though.

Tristan, they're using the same sheet still. Very amusing that the first TWO math problems are EXACTLY the same.

I'd love to see your comments on the backside, too. Roger Shaw has seen it all..... :) :aureola:
Bruce,

I observed the guy across from me, the only thing I noticed was cyanosis and his face turning white. He put on his mask pretty quick. That is all I wrote on the back.
 
In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.

On my trip out west, I had several legs in the oxygen altitudes. At first I dutifully put on the O2 on the way up and monitored my O2sat. However, I still felt like I wasn't getting enough air - The cannula restricted the flow of air somewhat, so I had to work harder to breathe the same volume of air. And my O2sat would still drop down to the 86-88 range.

I found that at lower altitudes such as 14,500, I could make my O2sat higher *without* O2 than I could with it! With the O2 I had to work pretty hard to breathe enough volume. Without the O2, I simply focused on actually using my entire lung capacity, taking long, deep breaths. I was able to get my O2sat back up to being consistently 92 or greater with no oxygen.

On the last day, I went to 17,500 feet. Here, I found what works best to keep my O2sat up: Expel as much air as possible, inhale the first bit through the cannula, enough volume that the O2 was at least starting to get into my lungs, and then for about the last 2/3 to 3/4 of the inhalation, deeply through my mouth, allowing me to get a large volume of plain air to help push the oxygen all the way out to my alveoli. Exhale fully, repeat.

As adults we normally use very little of our lung capacity. Concentrating on actually using all of it can help immensely. :yes:
Kent I am unfamiliar with your oxygen system but the system we used had three settings; emergency, normal, and off. I had trouble with the normal system since I encountered the same thing you did. I had to breath really hard to inhale much oxygen so I could see how it would impede concentration. However, the emergency setting forces oxygen into your lungs which you will also hear in some of the altitude chamber videos by the low freq. rumbling noise. Although, noisy, it's much easier to breath.
 
In my case at least, breathing technique is more important than oxygen.
I suspect that's true for most people. If you're aware of your saturation rate at all times, breathing technique works quite well. I can get to 98% at 12,500 by breathing correctly.

Also, as has been mentioned, time at altitude makes a huge difference. 5 hours at 8,000' is the same as 30 mins way higher up....
 
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I've been wanting to do a chamber ride sometime. Would there be any interest in a OKC Chamber fly-out sometime?

Yup...

I'm thinkin' of a couple folks around Denver that'd be up for a trip like that (as long as I provide the aircraft - CFI's are cheap b*stiches - oh well, I'd get some cheap foogles time). Need plenty of lead time to plant the idea and then get the commitment for the trip.

Any Wings credit for the chamber ride?
 
Kent, 25000 feet (which is the altitude of the CAMI pressure run) is VERY very different from 14,500. There isn't enough gas up there for ANY sort of breathing to make a difference. You don't last long, and I have been to altitude school. I lasted maybe....a tad longer than Tris. NOT MUCH, though.

Oh, I realize that, Bruce. I noticed a big difference just between 14,500 and 17,500, and at 17,500 I was using a combination of oxygen *and* technique. Isn't 25,000 the maximum altitude for cannulas for the same reason? I'm pretty sure that I'd need a mask before 25,000. :yes:

My point was simply that just because you flick the switch doesn't necessarily mean much.

BTW, that just made me curious. It seems like my O2sat on the ground is usually 96 or 97. Would that change during exercise? If so, would it go up or down? Would a more physically fit person normally have a higher O2sat than a less physically fit person?
 
I may have missed it, but how does one go about signing up for this course?

Thanks!
 
Bruce,

I observed the guy across from me, the only thing I noticed was cyanosis and his face turning white. He put on his mask pretty quick. That is all I wrote on the back.
The guy across from me was pretty macho (transl: dumb). He went FIVE minutes. Rogers Shaw was watching him, too....when he went down, Rogers went over there to slap on the mask, the guy had an obstructed airway. We had to get him on the floor, lift the jaw.

He came to responsiveness quickly enough that we didn't have to emergency repressurize. Very enlightening.
 
BTW, that just made me curious. It seems like my O2sat on the ground is usually 96 or 97. Would that change during exercise? If so, would it go up or down? Would a more physically fit person normally have a higher O2sat than a less physically fit person?
Ugh, you're not going to like my response. It's different if you are a "big" guy as the airways close early with lung volume loss and the lung becomes much less efficient. But in a slender person, this is much less prevalent.....
 
Ugh, you're not going to like my response. It's different if you are a "big" guy as the airways close early with lung volume loss and the lung becomes much less efficient. But in a slender person, this is much less prevalent.....

Not sure what you mean about "airways closing" - Why do they close? (I know less than squat when it comes to medical stuff...)
 
Not sure what you mean about "airways closing" - Why do they close? (I know less than squat when it comes to medical stuff...)
I'd guess because of increased abdominal pressure decreasing the size/volume of the lung. There is only so much space and fat would decrease it.

I'm totally guessing though. Everything I know about medicine comes from House.
 
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