Bye Bye PC, I've had it!!!

kgruber

Final Approach
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Skywag
I always thought I has pretty hot with the PC, and people(and my kids, if they can be called people) brought their problems to me.

But I have finally given up. The virus makers have won. There are several viruses out there that NO virus software can detect or clean.

This last one reinfected me after a complete reformat and install of operating system. I think it was transmitted wirelessly from my daughters old PC to mine. My kids are 1st and 2nd year college students. They went with MacBook Pros, and Iphones. I have their old PCs in a pile here with Suzi and mine to add to.

So....Last night I bought two Macbook Pros for me and my wife. Learning curve here we go.

Please send mental health advice.

First post from a Mac.

Karl.....
 
There will be some adjustment to the differences between them. But have fun learning OS X
 
Macs are easy and intuitive, and it will not take you long to make the transition. There is not as much software available for them, but you can get most of the vital stuff. Anything you want to plug into them will likely be plug and play.
 
Do you have plans for all of the spare time you'll have now that you don't have spend it fixing your tools? :wink2:
 
20+ years of owning a PC, the last 15+ of being on the internet, and I have yet to get a crippling virus. What the heck are you people doing?
 
20+ years of owning a PC, the last 15+ of being on the internet, and I have yet to get a crippling virus. What the heck are you people doing?

Having children.

2 kids (well, they're adults now) and plenty of time and machines on-line, never had a problem like this. Just where are they surfing? :D
 
I agree with Ed, only had a couple of script type viruses, never had a crippling virus. Had one at one company I worked at but it was eradicated in hours.

And I'm only reasonably careful.
 
The Facebook "koobface" virus just rendered our home pc useless. I am posting with a laptop!
 
I've owned 3 macs over the last 20 years. The only reason I've upgraded each time was because they became obsolete. All three still worked at the end and over the 20 years the only problem I had was a bad power supply.

Yes they are more expensive but my experience is they just plain work. That said I have a recording keeping program for my cow herd that I have to use on my wife's computer as it's pc only.
 
So....Last night I bought two Macbook Pros for me and my wife. Learning curve here we go.

Please send mental health advice.

Advice: Enjoy using a computer that isn't work to use.

Things will be a little different, but by and large there's less to worry about. If you run into any issues, feel free to PM me. I'm a long-time Mac user and I've helped a lot of people make the switch.

I've owned 3 macs over the last 20 years. The only reason I've upgraded each time was because they became obsolete. All three still worked at the end and over the 20 years the only problem I had was a bad power supply.

Yes they are more expensive but my experience is they just plain work. That said I have a recording keeping program for my cow herd that I have to use on my wife's computer as it's pc only.

Curious - What's the program?

BTW, there are plenty of options these days for running "PC Only" software on the Mac. Ever since they switched to Intel processors, it's been very easy to recommend the Mac even to people who need a "PC". For example, right now I'm running Linear's LTSpice (circuit analysis program) on my Mac via CrossOver.

There are four options that I know of: Boot Camp, Parallels, VMWare, and CrossOver. Boot Camp is Apple's free dual-boot solution. Parallels and VMWare can run a virtual machine within the Mac OS. CrossOver is an emulator (based on WINE).

CrossOver is the only one that does not require a copy of Windows, but there are a lot of programs that aren't compatible with it because of that. Boot Camp is the only one that requires a reboot to switch operating systems. The other two run Windows and the Mac OS simultaneously.

Hope you can get rid of that pesky PC now. ;)
 
2 kids (well, they're adults now) and plenty of time and machines on-line, never had a problem like this. Just where are they surfing? :D

Near as I can tell, the last one came from either Disney or Nickelodeon. I assume it was malware hiding behind an advertisement.
 
You realize WINE stands for: "Wine is not an emulator" :)

LOL, I was chuckling that to myself.

I used to use CrossOver on Xandros a few years ago. It worked so-so. I could never get DreamWeaver or Fireworks to work satisfactorily on it, for example. They did work... sort of... but not perfectly.

I personally don't care for the Mac GUI, I don't much care for Apple as a company, and Linux is as malware-resistant as MacOS; so I don't think there's a Mac in my future. But I won't bad-mouth Macs as machines. They're well-built and MacOS is a fine operating system. A bit overpriced and not my particular cup of coffee, but if you like it, enjoy.

Just one caveat: I have found with Macs that when they do crash, they go down with gusto; and what's done immediately thereafter can make the difference between a painless recovery and a nightmare. I advise people making the switch to find a competent Mac technician in advance. Most PC technicians will just make the problem worse.

For the record, I put myself in the latter group. That's why I don't work on broken Macs. I'll do routine things like software installation and troubleshooting, networking, and so forth, usually in situations where the client (or family) use both Macs and PCs. But once a Mac breaks on the OS level, I refer the client to a friend of mine who's a Mac specialist. I approach the job like a physician: "First, do no harm."

-Rich
 
I tend to be the extended family / friend computer guy. The new generation of viruses and malware are so hard to get rid of that my policy is this: buy an external drive for your personal documents, because when I get your infected computer it's going to get wiped and reinstalled.
 
I tend to be the extended family / friend computer guy. The new generation of viruses and malware are so hard to get rid of that my policy is this: buy an external drive for your personal documents, because when I get your infected computer it's going to get wiped and reinstalled.

That is the problem I was having.

There is a new virus that attacks the hidden partition (or wherever) where the reinstall OS lives. Wipe the disk and reinstall, and the virus is still there. And...it propagates right over a WIFI network to other computers online at the moment. VERY nasty. NO virus protection sees it. And I tried most of them.

I think it came from SOMETHING on Facebook.....but really have no idea.
 
I tend to be the extended family / friend computer guy. The new generation of viruses and malware are so hard to get rid of that my policy is this: buy an external drive for your personal documents, because when I get your infected computer it's going to get wiped and reinstalled.

I can count on the fingers of one hand (with a few left over) the malware I've come across that I couldn't get rid of. Even the rootkits can usually be detected and removed, although it can be a chore.

Much more common are cases where I elect to wipe / reinstall because it's just easier and faster, and the client has nothing especially important on the machine in terms of software. Documents, email and so forth can be backed up. And with more and more people using webmail services that save everything server-side, even the mail is often not a consideration.

For what it's worth, I've found Windows 7 64-bit to be the most robust Windows yet in terms of malware-resistance. On the flip side, however, it's also the most difficult to clean up once it does get infected (well, other than Vista, which is a total nightmare...).

As for FaceBook, MySpace, BeBo, and other social networking platforms, they're a scourge, in my opinion. I am this close ( * holding thumb and forefinger half an inch away from each other * ) to putting a clause in my warranty language that nullifies the warranty if the user so much as thinks about logging on to those sites. They're even worse than KaZaa and its ilk used to be. Anyone can post a link to anything, and the naive users happily click away and infect their machines.

My warranty specifically excludes malware reinfection, but I tend to honor calls anyway if they happen soon after the service, just on the possibility that I missed something. But these social networking sites are festering pits of digital perdition, especially for inexperienced users, and no AV software I've come across can keep up with the constant barrage of malware linked to from FaceBook et. al.

I had one machine a few months that was used by a teen-aged kid who wasn't home when I did the service. I went over her computer, found that she had absolutely nothing of importance on it that couldn't be backed up, and decided to do a reformat / reinstall in the interest of saving the client some money. I did a clean install from DVD, installed virus protection (Norton, at her father's insistence and against my advice), did all the OS and other updates, and left the machine pristine.

She got home from school at about 3:00 p.m., immediately logged into FaceBook, and was reinfected by 4:00 p.m. Seriously.

The father called me and demanded that I come back immediately to re-clean the machine, despite his daughter's admitting that she'd turned Norton off to access whatever it was she was trying to click and that Norton had been blocking. This idiot kid got a virus warning, saw that it was viral and being blocked, and disabled the AV to access it because "she wanted to know what they were saying about her." It's like an obsession.

I decided to cut my losses. I mailed the father his check back instead of doing the callback. These kind of clients aren't worth having. His "can-do-no-wrong" kid admitted to deliberately allowing the machine to be reinfected, and I'm supposed to clean it up again for free? No thanks. Call someone else next time, and here's your money back.

-Rich
 
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She got home from school at about 3:00 p.m., immediately logged into FaceBook, and was reinfected by 4:00 p.m. Seriously.

The father called me and demanded that I come back immediately to re-clean the machine, despite his daughter's admitting that she'd turned Norton off to access whatever it was she was trying to click and that Norton had been blocking. This idiot kid got a virus warning, saw that it was viral and being blocked, and disabled the AV to access it because "she wanted to know what they were saying about her." It's like an obsession.

Wasn't this the basic problem with Windows? Out of the box from the store, it boots so that the user has "administrative" privileges. That kid shouldn't have the kind of access that can disable Norton, but people don't set their Win machines up with different admin/user accounts.
 
Wasn't this the basic problem with Windows? Out of the box from the store, it boots so that the user has "administrative" privileges. That kid shouldn't have the kind of access that can disable Norton, but people don't set their Win machines up with different admin/user accounts.

That's one of the problems. A big one, but not the only one. I think the fact that any app was allowed to write to the system folders was an even bigger flaw.

Usually I set up user accounts so only one user (usually a parent) has admin privileges. But in this kid's case, it was her computer, and her father admitted to being computer illiterate. So I did create two accounts for her: "Amy" and "Amy_admin." I had no choice but to give her the password for "Amy_admin" because no one else would be able to administer the machine.

I also left her a note explaining that she should only use the "Amy_admin" account for installing software, doing updates, and so forth. My guess is that she barely glanced at the note, being in too much of a hurry to check her FaceBook account; and that when given the choice between logging in as Amy or Amy_admin, she chose the latter.

-Rich
 
You realize WINE stands for: "Wine is not an emulator" :)

Well, yes. But while it's not emulating a processor as the true "emulators" like Virtual PC did back in the day, it is emulating a copy of Windows. Okay, maybe emulating isn't the correct term there, but I don't know what is. :dunno:
 
Just one caveat: I have found with Macs that when they do crash, they go down with gusto; and what's done immediately thereafter can make the difference between a painless recovery and a nightmare. I advise people making the switch to find a competent Mac technician in advance. Most PC technicians will just make the problem worse.

Agreed with the last sentence, but I think the beginning portion isn't nearly as true as it was before Mac OS X.

Karl, one of the BEST things you can do is to get some external storage - In your case with the two laptops, a Time Capsule or other wireless NAS would be ideal - And get Time Machine turned on. It's the easiest backup solution you'll ever see, and it's MUCH easier than trying to recover things the old-fashioned way.
 
My family made the change to Mac a few years ago and we have never looked back. Great products, and if you have an apple store close by the genius bar is an excellent tech resource
 
]As for FaceBook, MySpace, BeBo, and other social networking platforms, they're a scourge, in my opinion.
Facebook isn't going anyway anytime soon and with every day that passes more and more businesses use it to communicate with their clients. We encourage the use in our company and we're not having issues with people becoming instantly infected with Facebook viruses. You'd have to be clicking through some really sketchy links to get yourself into that situation.
 
Facebook isn't going anyway anytime soon and with every day that passes more and more businesses use it to communicate with their clients. We encourage the use in our company and we're not having issues with people becoming instantly infected with Facebook viruses. You'd have to be clicking through some really sketchy links to get yourself into that situation.

Jesse, many users are... special, and not so likely to be able to immediately identify a "sketchy" link. The links don't say, "Hi! I'm Igor from Russia and I want to infect your computer and make it part of an International botnet!" (Actually, even if they did, I wouldn't put it past a few of my clients to click on them...)

And yes, I know more and more businesses are using FaceBook, including some of my own clients. But I also know that when I ask users how and when their computers got infected, no less than three-quarters of their answers begin with, "Well, I clicked a link on FaceBook..." (or MySpace, BeBo, etc).

But hey, you know, I'll take their money to disinfect their machines. And I'll take it over and over again -- as long as they know that every time I ring the doorbell, it's a billable call.

But when the decision is mine to make, I still block access to all of these social networking sites at the firewall. That doesn't make me very popular with the employees, but they'll get over it. Or not.

-Rich
 
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I have a cousin who is in the computer repair business. He recently admitted that if there were no viruses he'd be out of business.
 
Curious - What's the program?

BTW, there are plenty of options these days for running "PC Only" software on the Mac. Ever since they switched to Intel processors, it's been very easy to recommend the Mac even to people who need a "PC". For example, right now I'm running Linear's LTSpice (circuit analysis program) on my Mac via CrossOver.

My cattle program is called "Cowsense". I also have John Deere software for yield mapping that is windows only.

I used virtual pc on my last Mac but don't have any of the options you mentioned primarily because I didn't want to pay for a copy of windows when my wife's pc is handy.
 
Agreed with the last sentence, but I think the beginning portion isn't nearly as true as it was before Mac OS X.

Karl, one of the BEST things you can do is to get some external storage - In your case with the two laptops, a Time Capsule or other wireless NAS would be ideal - And get Time Machine turned on. It's the easiest backup solution you'll ever see, and it's MUCH easier than trying to recover things the old-fashioned way.

Kent, I'll do that....thanks.

Read my new thread, an amazing thing !!!

Karl
 
I used virtual pc on my last Mac but don't have any of the options you mentioned primarily because I didn't want to pay for a copy of windows when my wife's pc is handy.

Yeah, that does make it somewhat pointless - But I think you can download a trial of CrossOver for free, and it doesn't require Windows. That would at least tell you if it works. Oddly enough, the software I've really needed (Driver's Daily Log and LTSpice) has worked, but "fun" software like some of the flight planner stuff didn't (though I haven't tried recently, it may be better now).
 
I always thought I has pretty hot with the PC, and people(and my kids, if they can be called people) brought their problems to me.

But I have finally given up. The virus makers have won. There are several viruses out there that NO virus software can detect or clean.

This last one reinfected me after a complete reformat and install of operating system. I think it was transmitted wirelessly from my daughters old PC to mine. My kids are 1st and 2nd year college students. They went with MacBook Pros, and Iphones. I have their old PCs in a pile here with Suzi and mine to add to.

So....Last night I bought two Macbook Pros for me and my wife. Learning curve here we go.

Please send mental health advice.

First post from a Mac.

Karl.....

I recommend people buy Macs for my own happiness. The more amateur users that switch to Apple, the more likely they are to garner attention, and the more likely virus writers will pay attention to them taking some of the heat off of me.

Bear with me here. I'm not saying Apple makes bad products, just that the whole reason they get less viruses / malware than a Windows box is market share. Pure and simple, look at he attacks on Adobe, Mozilla, et al. They all come from mass adoption by ordinary users. You never had to worry about Mozilla Firefox while browsing the net, until it tipped past the 25% market penetration.

From the virus writers perspective, if you have 100 machines, 4 are macs and 3 are linux boxes and you have 93 windows boxes, which is a better target for your time investment? Consider that most "virus" writers today are freakin' lazy but are out to make a profit. Look at the most common virus of the last 2 years, Trojan.Vundo (many variants) that tries to scare users (YOU ARE INFECTED!, SCAN YOUR SYSTEM NOW FOR ERRORS!, et al) and play on one thing: user inexperience.

They are a pain to remove, especially if you're an amateur, but to someone like me it's not so bad. Also consider the virus writers whom then use it to test their viruses against anti virus software to ensure it isn't picked up. (Incidentally, they usually test against more than 1)

Never forget that all computers are vulnerable though. Stuxnet is apparently an attack on industrial controls of all things. They're debating if it's the first virus that can be classified as a cyberweapon right now.
 
I recommend people buy Macs for my own happiness. The more amateur users that switch to Apple, the more likely they are to garner attention, and the more likely virus writers will pay attention to them taking some of the heat off of me.

Bear with me here. I'm not saying Apple makes bad products, just that the whole reason they get less viruses / malware than a Windows box is market share. Pure and simple, look at he attacks on Adobe, Mozilla, et al. They all come from mass adoption by ordinary users. You never had to worry about Mozilla Firefox while browsing the net, until it tipped past the 25% market penetration.
...

This is many years old canard and it's dead, dead wrong. The reason that Macs don't get "viruses" is because OS X is built on Unix and Unix was designed from line 1 to be multi-user and multi-tasking with permissions.

All of the OS X "viruses" - and there have been a few - require the user to type in their password. It's even harder if the user isn't an admin account. And oh, in that case, all of the programs still work. They don't need admin privs to work.

It's much more fun to be able to install your evil program, unnoticed and with no warning triggered off URL that use one of the unpatched stack overflow vectors in the 177 "add-ins" that are running with full privileges.

Don't you think that just one of hundreds of thousands of leeet hackers would love to be the first to brag about his OS X worm to show up those smug Mac users in blue jeans? You heard of any? You really think that owning the few million Macs sold each quarter is not worth it? Mac users don't use credit cards or have bank accounts?

Sorry, guy.
 
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Don't you think that just one of hundreds of thousands of leeet hackers would love to be the first to brag about his OS X worm to show up those smug Mac users in blue jeans? You heard of any? You really think that owning the few million Macs sold each quarter is not worth it? Mac users don't use credit cards or have bank accounts?

Agreed. While Mac OS X is certainly not immune, the design philosophy is much more security-oriented than Windows.

In addition - wouldn't this argument also apply in reverse to the iPad? There's no competition for it right now, it's got "100% market share" in the touch tablet space right now - So why isn't it loaded with viruses and malware?
 
Unix vs OSX vs Linux vs Windoze security

This ia many years old canard and its dead, dead wrong. Teh erason that Macs don't get "viruses" is because OS X is built on Unix and Unix was designed from line 1 to be multi-user and multi-tasking with permissions.

All of the OS X "viruses" - and there have been a few - require the user to type in their password. It's even harder if the user isn't an admin account. And oh, in that case, all of the programs still work. They don't need admin privs to work.

Sorry, guy.

1) Bragging doesn't pay the bills.
1a) You seem to be under the delusion that most of the technical cracks this day and age are about publicity. This is a tired view. True, if you want to show off at HOPE or DEFCon, you create something to "show off" with. Take a look at the past 3 years of viruses (or 5 really) the biggest one has been Trojan.Vundo (and variants) that try to scare people into entering their credit card info. Even the botnets are created for a profit motive these days (renting). That's where the "serious" development work is done in viruses now, and it's a business. Heck it's even more true today than it was 10 years ago.

2) Unix has had plenty of root attacks over the years attacking services
2a) This is why network admins start by flipping off services in Cisco routers (especially source routing!) and unix servers (and if they don't, they should be fired)
2b) Nobody has really dedicated a ton of time (other than for show-off purposes) to looking for OSX holes with a profit motive.
2c) OSX is based on NetBSD if I remember proper. They have plenty of security holes, just like Windows. Tell me, how many boxes in the world are NetBSD again? How many are OSX? Tell me, if you're after money, which one will you want to "own"... The biggest threats on your network is your own unpatched (or "misconfigured" in Cisco speak) hardware and software. Most of the infections my old employer deals with are old XP boxes (without SP2 or 3 many times), outdated AV software, or people with Vista/7 that were dumb enough to run in superuser mode and just click yes to everything. Of course when MS made everyone, even admins, enter passwords in Vista the world was about to end. I have a shirt that describes this, something about there being no patch for human stupidity.

Oh and don't forget that the patched (up to date) Mac Air was hacked in two minutes at the Pwn2Own contest while the Vista and Linux systems were not beaten...

Long story short, money is the motive today. Crackers today either work hard for money or to show off at some conference. The latter isn't interested in a wide scope, while the former is. How else do you explain the lack in BIOS viruses? I remember when they were a serious threat, and it's just as easy to do today as it was then.

I'm sure an expert like you has seen the graph of tool sophistication vs technical knowledge required. Attacking via a BIOS with a virus used to be semi-common, but it required a great deal of technical acumen. Today's attacks are 5 tenths social engineering, 3 tenths technical knowledge, and 2 tenths business. Why else would the most popular attack program be focused solely on scaring people to type in their own credit card info and charge them $30-$80 which is whisked off to a bank in the old eastern bloc, China, et al.?

Yes, I do network security for a living. No, I don't like MS that much, I just hate bad info making my job harder. Macs have been proven just as vulnerable time and time again at security conferences and via warnings. The difference is, just as Firefox in the beginning, not enough market share to care about, yet. Look at Firefox now, you can get nailed with it almost as easy as IE8/9. Why? They started caring because a sufficient number of users appeared and they had to take it seriously to stay in business.
 
Re: Unix vs OSX vs Linux vs Windoze security

2c) OSX is based on NetBSD if I remember proper. They have plenty of security holes, just like Windows. Tell me, how many boxes in the world are NetBSD again?
Most NetBSD installs are machines performing fairly important tasks while often being responsible for protecting VERY sensitive information in mass quantities. Not your "typical Windows machine". Pretty much all servers are attractive targets because of the data they guard. An attack that would give you root access against any NetBSD box would be *extremely* valuable.

Many of the "vulnerability counts" against Unix or Linux systems in comparison to Windows are *completely* biased. Windows ships with almost no software. Most modern Unix/Linux distributions ship with thousands of different software packages. If you took all the software available for Windows and their associated vulnerability count compared to a *nix distribution you'd see a very different picture.

A lot of the "vulnerabilities" in the open-source world are discovered by people reading the source and fixed before anyone ever takes advantage of it. Those sort of holes just rot in the closed-source community until the wrong person finds them who then takes advantage of them. Let all the developers in the world read the Windows source and many of the popular Windows programs and you'd see a MAJOR flood of issues.

The majority of the "virus writers" programming all that ask-for-credit-card/spam **** really aren't that smart, thankfully. There are some very very scary smart guys out there that could do a lot of damage but are smart enough to apply their brain in other directions in technology in a more positive light.
 
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