Buying my first plane PA-32-300

joycem137

joycem137

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Robin
I had to buy a house and do a bunch of other stuff before I could do this, but now I am finally in the process of buying my first plane, a 1977 Cherokee 6 300. It looks like a great plane, though we'll see the reality of that this Friday when I get the pre-buy done.

I'm going to be keeping the plane at KRHV, and getting a BUNCH of training before I go flying my family and friends around. Insurance wants me to do at least 25 hours, and I'm totally fine doing that and more.

For a little bit of background, I've been flying 5 and a half years and have a little over 206 hours. I've got 6 hours in the 182, but due to starting and stopping it a lot, I haven't checked out on it yet. Otherwise, all my time is in 172s. I plan on using the plane I buy to start working on my instrument rating. Renting has grown increasingly frustrating to me as my desired mission parameters are shifting more towards flying friends and family around on longer weekend trips, and less on constant bay tours and $100 hamburgers.

I've still got a lot to figure out. What kind of parking (Shelter? Tiedown? Taxi in? Hangar?). How to find instructors if I'm not with a flying club. How to baby my engine so it lasts well beyond TBO... etc. etc. I'm really looking forward to this learning experience.
 
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I'm a big fan of the lance. enjoy it. def get some instruction in it. is the 182 HP or complex? you'll obviously need both for this plane. nice to be able to literally toss your golf bags or mtn bike etc in the back.
 
eman1200 said:
I'm a big fan of the lance. enjoy it. def get some instruction in it. is the 182 HP or complex? you'll obviously need both for this plane. nice to be able to literally toss your golf bags or mtn bike etc in the back.
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Both the 182 I have time in, and the Cherokee 6 I'm buying are just HP, not complex. I'm trying to avoid complex due to rumors of increased maintenance (EDIT: and insurance!) costs for retractable landing gear.

I'm super excited to be able to just toss everyone on board and go fly. And get there FAST! Or at least fast for me, after putting about in the Cessna 172 for 5 years...
 
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oh, it's a 6, gotcha.....
 
joycem137 said:
I've still got a lot to figure out. What kind of parking (Shelter? Tiedown? Taxi in? Hangar?). How to find instructors if I'm not with a flying club. How to baby my engine so it lasts well beyond TBO... etc. etc. I'm really looking forward to this learning experience.
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Congratulations!
 
25 hours of dual seems high, even without a HP endorsement. Finding an instructor can be the hard part and word of mouth is usually the best way. Honestly nothing hard about the plane, just a bit faster than the 172 and a bit more weight, plus fuel injection.

2300 RPM is a good spot for that engine. 24” or less in cruise (full throttle above 6k MSL) and running it a bit lean of peak and it’ll be happy. I always did 50 hour oil changes with Aeroshell 15w-50 or Exxon Elite on my Aztec.

The more coverage you can get the better. T-hangar is ideal, tie down is the worst, everything else is in between.

Good luck! Enjoy!
 
Ted DuPuis said:
25 hours of dual seems high, even without a HP endorsement.
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Technically, they are asking for 15 of dual, 10 of solo prior to carrying passengers.

Ted DuPuis said:
The more coverage you can get the better. T-hangar is ideal, tie down is the worst, everything else is in between.
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Out of curiosity, how bad can it get? Out here in sunny california, I imagine the biggest concern is sunlight and maybe dust? We get some rain, but not a lot... I wonder if a covered shelter will be adequate. They're not too pricey...
 
Single engine Aztec! Love it! And so will you.
Congratulations. And enjoy.
And be ready for lots of conflicting advice every time you ask a question here. ;):D
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Finding an instructor can be the hard part and word of mouth is usually the best way.
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Near KRHV? I'd bet there's a ton to choose from. Now if you had said "Finding a good instructor..." then that would be a different story :)
 
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Congrats!! Great plane!! Good luck!
 
The way to “baby” that engine is to not baby it. If it doesn’t have an engine monitor, get one. Used properly it will pay for itself and you can pretty much be assured you aren’t doing anything that can harm it. In theory, anyway.
 
I did almost the exact same thing. However, I went from a 177 to a PA32 300. I also had about 100-150 hours more than you.

I would recommend a partner in the plane. I had partners in the 177 and it made a big difference. It’s surprising how much money you can waste when you don’t know the ins and outs of the aviation world.

The PA32 is a great plane and not hard to fly. It has its quirks. Make sure your instructor is well acquainted.

I got my IFR rating in the plane. Great idea! You’ll really learn the plane. It’s a great IFR plane.


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Make sure your instructor loads up all the seats with ramp rats or anybody else for a few laps around the pattern. Do a few short field landings. The 32-300 requires a lot of deck angle and a whole fist full of power to land at mgw/short field. Do explore this corner of the envelope with the instructor... when I transitioned to the 32-300 this was the most eye-opening part of the transition. :hairraise:

-Skip
 
joycem137 said:
Technically, they are asking for 15 of dual, 10 of solo prior to carrying passengers.
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That seems a bit more reasonable. I personally think that's still fairly high, but pretty standard.

Out of curiosity, how bad can it get? Out here in sunny california, I imagine the biggest concern is sunlight and maybe dust? We get some rain, but not a lot... I wonder if a covered shelter will be adequate. They're not too pricey...
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In SoCal your biggest issue is going to be the sun/UV fading the paint and wearing out the interior and windows. In other areas rain, snow, etc. are bigger concerns. Planes that are outdoors are more likely to get birds nests in them and rodents as well. I don't know how big of a problem that is in your area, but it is elsewhere. It's also nice having a place to keep your airplane-related items.

Obviously there's a cost/benefit analysis that goes into it. The general philosophy is that a hangar pays for itself in reduced maintenance costs over time, but there are variables in that.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
That seems a bit more reasonable. I personally think that's still fairly high, but pretty standard.



In SoCal your biggest issue is going to be the sun/UV fading the paint and wearing out the interior and windows. In other areas rain, snow, etc. are bigger concerns. Planes that are outdoors are more likely to get birds nests in them and rodents as well. I don't know how big of a problem that is in your area, but it is elsewhere. It's also nice having a place to keep your airplane-related items.

Obviously there's a cost/benefit analysis that goes into it. The general philosophy is that a hangar pays for itself in reduced maintenance costs over time, but there are variables in that.
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I agree that the insurance requirement seems high...10 hours total is what my insurance required (although that was just a "lowly" PA28). And as far as a hangar, I like what my mechanic says, "Everyone pays for a hangar, whether you have one or not."
Congrats on the Cherokee 6...I may move up to one someday.
 
tawood said:
I agree that the insurance requirement seems high...10 hours total is what my insurance required (although that was just a "lowly" PA28). And as far as a hangar, I like what my mechanic says, "Everyone pays for a hangar, whether you have one or not."
Congrats on the Cherokee 6...I may move up to one someday.
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PA28 vs. 32 is going to be looked at differently since you've got more seats in the 32 and high performance.

Of course, it's been a long time since I had 200 hours so I'm rather disconnected from requirements in that realm of transition. When I bought the Aztec (225 TT or so) they said 25 hours of dual prior to solo flight, no other requirements. I had no multi rating yet and was going to do my multi rating in the Aztec. Interestingly, the policy didn't say I needed a multi rating to fly the plane solo, just 25 hours of dual. So for my multi engine checkride (I waited until I had my 25 hours of dual), my instructor signed me off to solo the plane down to the airport where the DPE was for my checkride.

I think that was one of the most memorable flights and days overall in my flying career. I still remember the excitement of pushing the throttles forward in the Aztec and taking off by myself that first time. A few days ago marked 9 years (and over 2500 hours) since that checkride. After the ride was done, I surprised a couple friends and we flew the Aztec to dinner, then I flew it home.

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I just transitioned from a PA28 to a PA32 (Lance). Shop around for insurance. I’ve got less than 200 hours. They required 12 dual and a couple TO and Landings within 90% of max gross. I would consider the cost to get trained as part of the insurance premium and compare that way.
 
I went from an Archer to a Bo, and I had to do 15 dual and 10 solo. Seems high for a HP non complex plane, but for me, I am glad I had to do it. I feel more comfortable in the plane before adding in passengers.
 
Congrats! I recently purchased a 1980 PA32 (Toga) and was a prior 172/182 flier, with about the same hours as you. Landing has been my biggest transition, much different from the Cessna’s. This bird can be heavy and a much less glide range. Know your speeds and stick to them.
 
Congrats,enjoy your new purchase,you’ll enjoy it once you get used to the weight difference.
 
Skip Miller said:
Make sure your instructor loads up all the seats with ramp rats or anybody else for a few laps around the pattern. Do a few short field landings.
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^^this^^

It will fly differently between max gross weight and lightly loaded.

Does it have the IO-540 engine?

With different tires and wheels the 300 makes a decent bush plane.
 
joycem137 said:
Technically, they are asking for 15 of dual, 10 of solo prior to carrying passengers.

Out of curiosity, how bad can it get? Out here in sunny california, I imagine the biggest concern is sunlight and maybe dust? We get some rain, but not a lot... I wonder if a covered shelter will be adequate. They're not too pricey...
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When I got my Cherokee 6 checkout from West Valley (when they had a 6 -- N694DB), I ended up using David Fry. He seemed to be fine as an instructor, though unreliable since he will preempt instructing for his corporate gigs. I think he much prefers to fly the Pilatus! He's an option in the area.

The sun is actually a huge killer of a few things on a plane. Some are expected...it's not great for the paint or the tires or basically anything made of rubber or plastic, including the windows. Not too surprising is that it's terrible for the upholstery, but worse than you'd expect because the plexi used in planes doesn't block UV as well as actual glass does in cars. And that leads to the surprising downside: avionics hate the sun. You will have more display problems and the like with your avionics if left in the sun. Good covers can definitely mitigate the problem, but they definitely add to the time it takes to pre-flight. N694DB had a wrap-around canvas cover (Bruce's), and it took around five minutes to remove and little more to put on. Still, if it's going outside, I recommend it.

KRHV has plenty of shade hangars, as I'm sure you're aware. I think all the real hangars are taken.
 
Zeldman said:
^^this^^

It will fly differently between max gross weight and lightly loaded.

Does it have the IO-540 engine?

With different tires and wheels the 300 makes a decent bush plane.
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Ooh! Can you give me some information on what tires and wheels to look into? I have NO intention of doing backcountry flying for a long time, but maybe in the future after I've got a good 100+ hours in this plane, I'll consider checking out some of the dry lake bed fly-ins or something.
 
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joycem137 said:
Ooh! Can you give me some information on what tires and wheels to look into? I have NO intention of doing backcountry flying for at least a long time, but maybe in the future after I've got a good 100+ hours in this plane, I'll consider checking out some of the dry lake bed fly-ins or something.
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Not to dissuade you but the stock tires/wheels are fine for most of what we do in the lower 48. Zeldman is an Alaska guy so when he sez 'bush' he means anywhere long enough to land a plane (I think). Notice that flat and smooth were not mentioned in the description.

About the most we need to do is take the pants off but I rarely do even that mostly because I have to fly so far to get to a strip that might grass stain the pants.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
25 hours of dual seems high, even without a HP endorsement. Finding an instructor can be the hard part and word of mouth is usually the best way.

Good luck! Enjoy!
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I second the notion of 25 hours dual being a lot for insurance. You may want to shop around a bit.

I had 256 hours prior to buying my Super Viking (Complex and High Performance), and I’d never flown a retractable gear plane before. In shopping around for insurance, I found a fairly wide range of quotes/requirements. One company wanted 25 hours of dual and was one of the more expensive quotes. Others with lower rates just required that I be signed off by an instructor who met a set of minimum qualifications (total time, time in type, etc.) Needless to say, I chose the cheaper option which also had less onerous requirements for solo. I flew 5.7 hours with the instructor, and that was all. It pays to shop around.

This May 11th will be my 6th year of having my plane, and I’ve put almost 680 hours on it since then.

Congratulations on your upcoming purchase.




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joycem137 said:
Technically, they are asking for 15 of dual, 10 of solo prior to carrying passengers.



Out of curiosity, how bad can it get? Out here in sunny california, I imagine the biggest concern is sunlight and maybe dust? We get some rain, but not a lot... I wonder if a covered shelter will be adequate. They're not too pricey...
Click to expand...

With a metal plane out here in the Bay area, it won’t be too bad. I’m assuming it’s white? Get some cowl plugs, a pitot tube cover, and some sun shades to keep the cockpit somewhat cool to protect the avionics. Maybe a cover of some sort also. Hangars aren’t cheap out here, so I understand not wanting to pay for that. A shelter is better than a tie down if you can afford it.

I keep my plane in a hangar. The plane is wood and steel tube with fabric covering and is painted a dark navy blue, so leaving it out in the sun and rain would be really bad for it.

Hangars do have the advantage of providing a good place to securely keep all your stuff. And, you know that no one has had any access to your baby since you put it away. Can’t say the same for shelters or tiedowns.


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joycem137 said:
Both the 182 I have time in, and the Cherokee 6 I'm buying are just HP, not complex. I'm trying to avoid complex due to rumors of increased maintenance (EDIT: and insurance!) costs for retractable landing gear.

I'm super excited to be able to just toss everyone on board and go fly. And get there FAST! Or at least fast for me, after putting about in the Cessna 172 for 5 years...
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Minor note: You’re avoiding retracts, not complex. The 182 and the 6 have a constant speed prop. :)

Ditto on the advice to load it up differently with the CFI. Get it heavy somehow (cases of water work well) and the CG aft before you do it with people on board if you can, or do a couple of flights once you’ve gotten past the insurance requirements with the CFI on board, fully loaded or close.

It’s going to surprise you a little on how the aircraft feels when it’s full and CG is much further aft than you’ve been flying it during solo work.

Also do some work with the POH figuring out what full loads do to CG and fuel you can take and think about how you’ll measure the fuel.

Other than that, good luck on the pre-buy! I don’t know anyone who owns a Lance that doesn’t love it.
 
denverpilot said:
Minor note: You’re avoiding retracts, not complex. The 182 and the 6 have a constant speed prop. :)
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Well, they have flaps also, but, according to FAR §61.1, a plane is not complex (for a land plane) unless it as all three of:retracts, flaps, controllable pitch prop. Pretty sure I know what you meant, but I didn’t want the impression to be that complex doesn’t include all three.

Heck, the Decathlon I sometimes fly has only one of the required characteristics, a controllable pitch prop. Gear is down and welded (riveted?), and flaps? we don’t need no stinkin flaps!



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jimhorner said:
I second the notion of 25 hours dual being a lot for insurance. You may want to shop around a bit.
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oooh! I just got a quote back from another person saying I just need 10 of dual, including time at or above 90% MG.
 
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joycem137 said:
I'm going to be keeping the plane at KRHV, ...
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Depending on where you live in the Bay Area, you may want to consider KSJC also. No shelters, but there are lots of tie downs available. When I first purchased my plane in 2012, I didn’t even think to see if there were hangars available in San Jose, so I kept it at E16, San Martin. Three months later, when I learned that a hangar was available at KSJC, I jumped on it and moved. My airport commute went from 45+ minutes to 7 ish.

At the time, San Jose hangar costs were slightly _less_ than South County. Maybe tiedowns are similar? It all depends on where you live. San Jose is a great airport; the IFR minimums are lower, so there’s more chance of getting in with a low marine layer, much, much less wait time for an IFR departure, and at least for me, a much shorter commute than it would be to RHV. Santa Clara to RHV in the afternoon rush hour time is pushing 30 to 45 min. Santa Clara to KSJC at rush hour is still only about 10-12 min.

Now when the Earthquakes are playing, it is an entirely different story. :(

And, if you do get a tiedown at KSJC, there’s probably better security for your plane since it’s a Class C. The tower folks are great also.

There may even be a hangar open. Not sure, but I’ve heard rumors. No shelters though.


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joycem137 said:
oooh! I just got a quote back from another person saying I just need 10 of dual, including time at or above 90% MG.
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That’s progress. It’s a good idea to fly near max gross for a bit to experience what that is like.

I wonder if the 6 seats count more in the insurance folks eyes than the retracts? My complex plane has four seats, and I was pretty easily able to find a quote with no minimum time requirements.


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jimhorner said:
That’s progress. It’s a good idea to fly near max gross for a bit to experience what that is like.

I wonder if the 6 seats count more in the insurance folks eyes than the retracts? My complex plane has four seats, and I was pretty easily able to find a quote with no minimum time requirements.


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That's what I hear. 6 seats scares people. Also plane value.
 
jimhorner said:
That’s progress. It’s a good idea to fly near max gross for a bit to experience what that is like.

I wonder if the 6 seats count more in the insurance folks eyes than the retracts? My complex plane has four seats, and I was pretty easily able to find a quote with no minimum time requirements.


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The 6 people is a big part of the insurance cost. I have a Saratoga and my CFI said the opportunity to kill 6 people will up your insurance rate. From what I have seen and heard the 6 seat Pipers run from about 4k to 6k for most people.

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The 6 seats is a big issue liability wise. More people who can die.

With that said, 10 hours of dual sounds more reasonable.
 
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