Buying my first plane PA-32-300

drotto said:
The 6 people is a big part of the insurance cost. I have a Saratoga and my CFI said the opportunity to kill 6 people will up your insurance rate. From what I have seen and heard the 6 seat Pipers run from about 4k to 6k for most people.

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That is a huge delta from what I would expect. A couple of years ago, I was interested in a T310R, and I got a quote for on the order of $2500 for the insurance, and that was for me with no multi engine time at all. The 310 seats 6. Are these Pipers the newer Meridians and things like that?

Hull value I was quiting on the 310 was something less than $150K


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jimhorner said:
That is a huge delta from what I would expect. A couple of years ago, I was interested in a T310R, and I got a quote for on the order of $2500 for the insurance, and that was for me with no multi engine time at all. The 310 seats 6. Are these Pipers the newer Meridians and things like that?

Hull value I was quiting on the 310 was something less than $150K


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My insurance is about 5500, but I have an SP with a high hull value due to a major overhaul about 5 years ago, so that may be a big price of it. A pilot I know had a fixed gear toga and said he was around 5000. This was a slightly newer plane but an older panel.

Granted I am low hours at around 185, and the insurance company was reluctant to cover me at first. I have about 85 hrs in the plane at this point.
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drotto said:
My insurance is about 5500, but I have an SP with a high hull value due to a major overhaul about 5 years ago, so that may be a big price of it. A pilot I know had a fixed gear toga and said he was around 5000. This was a slightly newer plane but an older panel.

Granted I am low hours at around 185, and the insurance company was reluctant to cover me at first. I have about 85 hrs in the plane at this point.
f5c9b9bc49de7d3a432d166f10f8c7ed.jpg


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That’s insane. My Beech 18 is insured for only $900 more with 7 seats and a $250k hull.
 
Fearless Tower said:
That’s insane. My Beech 18 is insured for only $900 more with 7 seats and a $250k hull.
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Technically this plane is listed as a seven seater in the registration. That also hurts the insurance rates. Might be worth it to get the STC for the 6 seat only, and see if that affects the rate. The "7" seat thing is also proving to be an issue with older 6 seat pipers and the basic medical regulation. The plane is 6 seat club seating, but because a few in the 70's had a seven seat option that rating carried over to hulls that never even had that option.

It really seems like the biggest factor in insurance rates is the number you are rated to carry.

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drotto said:
Technically this plane is listed as a seven seater in the registration. That also hurts the insurance rates. Might be worth it to get the STC for the 6 seat only, and see if that affects the rate. The "7" seat thing is also proving to be an issue with older 6 seat pipers and the basic medical regulation. The plane is 6 seat club seating, but because a few in the 70's had a seven seat option that rating carried over to hulls that never even had that option.

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The STC would help with the basic Med, but you may not need it for the insurance.

You can talk to your broker and see if your insurance underwriter will write a policy for only 6 seats.

I did that with the Beech 18. It’s officially certified for 10 seats. Mine has the executive interior, so 7 is the max I could ever carry without major modification, so my broker had me sign a letter to the insurance company agreeing that I would never operate it with more than 7 seats.
 
Congratulations! I love the Cherokee 6. Very capable aircraft. Owning a two-seat experimental now after flying a C185 for 20+ years, I really miss the load hauling ability.

joycem137 said:
...
Out of curiosity, how bad can it get? Out here in sunny california, I imagine the biggest concern is sunlight and maybe dust? We get some rain, but not a lot... I wonder if a covered shelter will be adequate. They're not too pricey...
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You'll get some disagreement, but IMO, covered shelter is great. I stored aircraft outside on tiedowns in coastal Alaska for the past 30 years. Hangars are great, but flying does go on even without them. :)
 
joycem137 said:
I had to buy a house and do a bunch of other stuff before I could do this, but now I am finally in the process of buying my first plane, a 1977 Cherokee 6 300. It looks like a great plane, though we'll see the reality of that this Friday when I get the pre-buy done.

I'm going to be keeping the plane at KRHV, and getting a BUNCH of training before I go flying my family and friends around. Insurance wants me to do at least 25 hours, and I'm totally fine doing that and more.

For a little bit of background, I've been flying 5 and a half years and have a little over 206 hours. I've got 6 hours in the 182, but due to starting and stopping it a lot, I haven't checked out on it yet. Otherwise, all my time is in 172s. I plan on using the plane I buy to start working on my instrument rating. Renting has grown increasingly frustrating to me as my desired mission parameters are shifting more towards flying friends and family around on longer weekend trips, and less on constant bay tours and $100 hamburgers.

I've still got a lot to figure out. What kind of parking (Shelter? Tiedown? Taxi in? Hangar?). How to find instructors if I'm not with a flying club. How to baby my engine so it lasts well beyond TBO... etc. etc. I'm really looking forward to this learning experience.
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Don't baby your engine. Fly the **** out of it. Run it how the manufacturer recommends you run it.

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drotto said:
Technically this plane is listed as a seven seater in the registration. That also hurts the insurance rates. Might be worth it to get the STC for the 6 seat only, and see if that affects the rate. The "7" seat thing is also proving to be an issue with older 6 seat pipers and the basic medical regulation. The plane is 6 seat club seating, but because a few in the 70's had a seven seat option that rating carried over to hulls that never even had that option.

It really seems like the biggest factor in insurance rates is the number you are rated to carry.

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Talk to your broker.
They wrote me a policy for 7 seats; I corrected him saying there were only 6. He had them update the policy.

The premium change was less than $100.
 
joycem137 said:
*ALMOST THERE* Pre-purchase inspection is in 3 days... But hopefully NEXT FRIDAY I HAVE PLANE.
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So.....

How’d the prebuy go? You the proud new owner of a plane?




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jimhorner said:
That is a huge delta from what I would expect. A couple of years ago, I was interested in a T310R, and I got a quote for on the order of $2500 for the insurance, and that was for me with no multi engine time at all. The 310 seats 6. Are these Pipers the newer Meridians and things like that?

Hull value I was quiting on the 310 was something less than $150K


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$4k to $6k is a crazy number for insurance, and I don't think it's the seat count but the hull value that mostly drives it.

My experience is similar to yours; my 6-seat 1979 Aztec costs about $2200 a year to insure (it went up $80 for the same coverage this year) but the hull loss value is only $100k.
 
mscard88 said:
Garbage. :(
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Ya old grump. LOL.

Karen likes the Phat Tires video. She always jokes that we need Phat Tires on the Skylane ever since seeing it.

The other Ohio Bush Planes videos are better though, no doubt about that. ;) For whatever reasons they’ve taken some of the funnest ones down, though. I think they sell DVDs of them.

I’ll give them this, they’re not the same damn boring videos of four hours of cruise flight from a strut mounted GoPro that make up the other 99% of YouTube airplane videos.
 
jimhorner said:
So.....

How’d the prebuy go? You the proud new owner of a plane?
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The pre-buy was not what I hoped. My guy called it a "10 footer." Plane looks great from 10 feet, but when you get close, there's a lot of problems. There's a ton of loose or smoking rivets and little spots of corrosion and stuff like that. What's worse is that there's a lot of mechanic mistakes, like fuel lines getting cut into by being rubbed up against, the oil cooler getting cut into by a wire rubbing against it, etc. The engine is great, and the panel has some nice goodies for me, so my current plan is to do a lower offer and use the savings from that to get the thing repaired by my local mechanic. We'll see if they'll take the lower offer or not. Considering I came in at their relatively high asking price, they should hopefully accept my reduction.
 
It's scary how easy it is to get overly attached to plane during the buying process. The worst is when it is nearby (convience) and you start to tell yourself it's easier to fix this one up than find a better on farther awsy.

Just think, whatever your mechanic found...he will find even more. Think atleast another 10% of final paid price...maybe even more.

If you are really comfortable with your mechanics estimate, it's probably okay. From your description it sounds like he was very candid.

Is the plane in annual? How long since it was last flown?
 
joycem137 said:
The pre-buy was not what I hoped. My guy called it a "10 footer." Plane looks great from 10 feet, but when you get close, there's a lot of problems. There's a ton of loose or smoking rivets and little spots of corrosion and stuff like that. What's worse is that there's a lot of mechanic mistakes, like fuel lines getting cut into by being rubbed up against, the oil cooler getting cut into by a wire rubbing against it, etc. The engine is great, and the panel has some nice goodies for me, so my current plan is to do a lower offer and use the savings from that to get the thing repaired by my local mechanic. We'll see if they'll take the lower offer or not. Considering I came in at their relatively high asking price, they should hopefully accept my reduction.
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It’s better than a 40 footer! ;)

Sorry to hear you found problems... good luck on the negotiations.
 
joycem137 said:
The pre-buy was not what I hoped. My guy called it a "10 footer." Plane looks great from 10 feet, but when you get close, there's a lot of problems. There's a ton of loose or smoking rivets and little spots of corrosion and stuff like that. What's worse is that there's a lot of mechanic mistakes, like fuel lines getting cut into by being rubbed up against, the oil cooler getting cut into by a wire rubbing against it, etc. The engine is great, and the panel has some nice goodies for me, so my current plan is to do a lower offer and use the savings from that to get the thing repaired by my local mechanic. We'll see if they'll take the lower offer or not. Considering I came in at their relatively high asking price, they should hopefully accept my reduction.
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Itemize the cost to repair the things your mechanic found and present it to the seller.

This is not unusual. The planes most of us fly are decades old and most often need some attention. None of the stuff you identified sounds difficult to address, with the possible exception of the rivets/corrosion - depends where and why in that instance.

And never forget...It's a LOT easier to buy a plane than it is to sell one.
 
joycem137 said:
The pre-buy was not what I hoped. My guy called it a "10 footer." Plane looks great from 10 feet, but when you get close, there's a lot of problems. There's a ton of loose or smoking rivets and little spots of corrosion and stuff like that. What's worse is that there's a lot of mechanic mistakes, like fuel lines getting cut into by being rubbed up against, the oil cooler getting cut into by a wire rubbing against it, etc. The engine is great, and the panel has some nice goodies for me, so my current plan is to do a lower offer and use the savings from that to get the thing repaired by my local mechanic. We'll see if they'll take the lower offer or not. Considering I came in at their relatively high asking price, they should hopefully accept my reduction.
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My advice is worth what you paid for it...that said...
Unless there is something about this plane that sets it apart, I’d walk. Not because of what was found directly, but what likely WILL be found when your AP gets further inside at annual etc. the things he/she found are clues. If you see evidence of neglect PLUS questionable mechanic work, consider the following:
-were AD’s not complied with that should’ve been?
-were AD’s supposedly complied with, but not actually done?
-were AD’s complied with, but not well?
-is there damage history on a supposedly “NDH” aircraft?

You sound just like I did when I was looking at my plane. I got attached, bought without taking a deep breath, and my wallet is still smoking as a result.

I don’t post this to whizz in your wheaties, I do so in the hope that I can save someone else with my experience.
 
Sinistar said:
It's scary how easy it is to get overly attached to plane during the buying process. The worst is when it is nearby (convience) and you start to tell yourself it's easier to fix this one up than find a better on farther awsy.

Just think, whatever your mechanic found...he will find even more. Think atleast another 10% of final paid price...maybe even more.

If you are really comfortable with your mechanics estimate, it's probably okay. From your description it sounds like he was very candid.

Is the plane in annual? How long since it was last flown?
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It’s been flown regularly, every single day. I think we have a good sense of how much repair work is needed on this thing. Probably around $10k or so. My mechanics say it’s a good buy for the right price. The trick is finding that right price and seeing if the seller will accept it.
 
joycem137 said:
The pre-buy was not what I hoped. My guy called it a "10 footer." Plane looks great from 10 feet, but when you get close, there's a lot of problems. There's a ton of loose or smoking rivets and little spots of corrosion and stuff like that. What's worse is that there's a lot of mechanic mistakes, like fuel lines getting cut into by being rubbed up against, the oil cooler getting cut into by a wire rubbing against it, etc. The engine is great, and the panel has some nice goodies for me, so my current plan is to do a lower offer and use the savings from that to get the thing repaired by my local mechanic. We'll see if they'll take the lower offer or not. Considering I came in at their relatively high asking price, they should hopefully accept my reduction.
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Sorry this one didn’t work out.

When I was shopping for my first plane, I had my eye on an absolutely beautiful Cessna 185. I’d taken a test flight, negotiated a good price, arranged for insurance, and taken care of financing. That baby was as good as mine. All that was required was the simple formality of the pre-buy inspection.

I asked my instrument and tailwheel instructor for a recommendation for a good mechanic, and I was pretty much walking around on cloud nine, just knowing that I was soon to be the proud owner of one of the coolest airplanes around. My instructor’s caution to not fall in love with the plane yet pretty much went in one ear and out the other......

During the prebuy the mechanic found corrosion inside due to not cleaning out the paint stripper used before the paint job, lots of loose and sheared rivets, broken ribs in the horizontal stab, and numerous other issues. His estimate was $40,000 to fix.

Needless to say, I walked. So glad I did. Found a great deal on a 1989 Super Viking and love it.

Fire up Trade a Plane, Controller, and Barnstormer and get back in the hunt. You _will_ find the perfect plane for you. Don’t give up.


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joycem137 said:
It’s been flown regularly, every single day. I think we have a good sense of how much repair work is needed on this thing. Probably around $10k or so. My mechanics say it’s a good buy for the right price. The trick is finding that right price and seeing if the seller will accept it.
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Smoking rivets and corrosion? Run away! The perfect plane for you is a turboDakota.

Okay, that was a joke...sorta. I had to work through some problems on pre-buy but they were repaired to my satisfaction. I'll take repaired, airworthy over we can fix after purchase just about any time.
 
Clark1961 said:
Smoking rivets and corrosion? Run away! The perfect plane for you is a turboDakota.

Okay, that was a joke...sorta. I had to work through some problems on pre-buy but they were repaired to my satisfaction. I'll take repaired, airworthy over we can fix after purchase just about any time.
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+1!

Yep, don’t fall for the trap of buy then repair unless you like throwing money down a hole or really enjoy working on a project plane.

Much easier to go back to the search and find another plane.

May want to widen your search criteria and look at other types. You may want to evaluate your mission again. Do you really need all 6 seats for most flights? If the six seats are for a large ish family, will you still be in the W&B envelope with any useful fuel as the kids get older and bigger? Plan for lots of travel, or quick little trips?

In my search, I went from just absolutely having to have a big ole, macho, C-185 tailwheel beast with incredible hauling capability (although not all that fast) to a Bellanca Super Viking with retracts, a decent hauling capability, and a really fast plane with great handling. I would have loved the 185, but I would also have a real hard time getting rid of the Viking.


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Omalley1537 said:
My advice is worth what you paid for it...that said...
Unless there is something about this plane that sets it apart, I’d walk. Not because of what was found directly, but what likely WILL be found when your AP gets further inside at annual etc. the things he/she found are clues. If you see evidence of neglect PLUS questionable mechanic work, consider the following:
-were AD’s not complied with that should’ve been?
-were AD’s supposedly complied with, but not actually done?
-were AD’s complied with, but not well?
-is there damage history on a supposedly “NDH” aircraft?

You sound just like I did when I was looking at my plane. I got attached, bought without taking a deep breath, and my wallet is still smoking as a result.

I don’t post this to whizz in your wheaties, I do so in the hope that I can save someone else with my experience.
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I’d tend to agree with this.

Keep in mind, based on what you’ve seen on the pre-buy, you are likely to find even more issues when you start pulling things apart to address the obvious issues. IOW, your final repair bill will likely be bigger than the itemized list you came up with on the pre-buy. I learned this the hard way on my first airplane.
 
It's interesting how there is a divide between "Run away" and "You have to expect some of this from an older plane." Makes it hard to figure out what to do! :p

My mechanic and I really feel like we've got a pretty clear idea of how bad this is... and it's gonna be bad, don't get me wrong... but he also thinks that with a bunch of work, it'll be a great plane, as all the fundamentals/major things are good. The trick seems to be the gamble of how much to lowball against how much we think everything is going to cost over the first year. And it's all guess work, ofc.

That said, Omalley1537's comments scare me a bit. I don't like considering whether the ADs have been complied with correctly... They all *seem* to be, but I'm definitely seeing paperwork carelessness around some of it. HMMMM.

Plane buying is hard. :p
 
Sinistar said:
Walking away after getting emotionally attached is harder.
Paying 625% more in repairs than estimated is even harder.
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Right, but the notion that it MUST mean the buyer is too emotionally invested just because they're willing to gamble and get an airplane on discount based on condition seems too broad a stroke to make imo. Matter of fact, I've largely bought airplanes that needed some form of TLC or another. A mere occupational hazard of the buy low/sell low dynamic I dabble in, afaic. Have yet to lose my shirt (never say never!). The airplanes were always discounted to my satisfaction. And Lord knows nobody on here would ever accuse me of being in love with my airplane; I'm one of the more self-deprecating owners when it comes to it. Everybody on here knows if I could afford it I'd be flying a 180knot twin around for no good reason at all, right yesterday. :D

If the OP thinks they can get a decent discount on a frothy market like the six 300 market, then I wouldn't knock it outright. Heck, I almost tried to make a bid on a badly hail dented Lance a couple weeks back under the same auspices, and I haven't even put an ad to sell my Arrow. Of course I'm also closing on a house next month, so I realized right now is not the time to be throwing hail Marys at the people I love, or the mortgage lender for that matter LOL. Point being, not everybody has the same risk aversion to discounts on condition, and that doesn't mean the buyer is emotionally blinded.

I do understand the point about volume. In a market with many samples, perhaps looking at a different one is a fairly easy choice to make as well. Limited market (comanche 260s, travel airs et al), sure you gotta do some gambling if you ever want to get the keys to one.
 
joycem137 said:
It's interesting how there is a divide between "Run away" and "You have to expect some of this from an older plane." Makes it hard to figure out what to do! :p

My mechanic and I really feel like we've got a pretty clear idea of how bad this is... and it's gonna be bad, don't get me wrong... but he also thinks that with a bunch of work, it'll be a great plane, as all the fundamentals/major things are good. The trick seems to be the gamble of how much to lowball against how much we think everything is going to cost over the first year. And it's all guess work, ofc.

That said, Omalley1537's comments scare me a bit. I don't like considering whether the ADs have been complied with correctly... They all *seem* to be, but I'm definitely seeing paperwork carelessness around some of it. HMMMM.

Plane buying is hard. :p
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Yes. There is a very clear divide between buy and run away. It is different for everyone and has to do with your knowledge, experience, risk aversion and resources.

I’m on my second plane. I know several mechanics. I have their numbers and a good relationship. I’ve got a great avionics guy. I know quite a few people in the community that could help me out on some hard decisions. I could take on a project plane.

You’re a first time buyer. Find something reasonable, safe and in good shape. Fly the hell out of it. There will be plenty of expenses er, learning opportunities.

YMMV!


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joycem137 said:
It's interesting how there is a divide between "Run away" and "You have to expect some of this from an older plane." Makes it hard to figure out what to do!

My mechanic and I really feel like we've got a pretty clear idea of how bad this is... and it's gonna be bad, don't get me wrong... but he also thinks that with a bunch of work, it'll be a great plane, as all the fundamentals/major things are good. The trick seems to be the gamble of how much to lowball against how much we think everything is going to cost over the first year. And it's all guess work, ofc.

That said, Omalley1537's comments scare me a bit. I don't like considering whether the ADs have been complied with correctly... They all *seem* to be, but I'm definitely seeing paperwork carelessness around some of it. HMMMM.

Plane buying is hard.
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The other question is whether or not the seller will even accept a lowball offer. I cut $40K off of my offer on the C185 to cover the estimated repair costs, and the seller just laughed at me. He said he wouldn’t let it go for anything less than what we had originally agreed upon, despite the broken ribs, the sheared rivets in the landing gear, the extensive internal corrosion, etc. He sold it a few weeks later to someone who either didn’t do as thorough a pre-buy as I did, or perhaps who just didn’t care. I’m pretty sure he got more than what he and I had originally agreed upon for it.

That being said, I still think that the best solution is to keep looking. I think it’s better to have your first airplane be relatively trouble free. That way you get to fly it more.

This looks like a nice one...

https://www.trade-a-plane.com/sear...OKEE+6/300&listing_id=2315735&s-type=aircraft

Looks pretty well equipped from an IFR standpoint. I don’t remember if you said you were IFR rated or not. I assume you plan to get the IFR if not?


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