Buying a plane with non-waas G1000...

bgreenhaw

bgreenhaw

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Brandon Greenhaw
What are the drawbacks of purchasing a plane with a non-waas G1000? Would training for IFR rating be compromised any with non-waas? How about selling the plane another 5-10 years down the line?Would the non-waas G1000 be obsolete? From what I've been able to gather online about upgrade/replacement it would be $70k+ so that would be tough as well.
 
As someone who might consider a G1000 aircraft for purchase someday, an aircraft with a non-WASS setup is one I would
  1. either pass up and not consider
  2. heavily negotiate your asking price downward in order to cover future cost of upgrade to WAAS
  3. but most likely #1
As far as non-wass being "obsolete".... I would say it will become more undesirable over obsolete.
 
I would believe you could use it for instrument training with no troubles at all.

Mike is correct, it's more that it becomes less desirable than obsolete.

Being unfamiliar with the details, is there an upgrade path for the G1000 to get WAAS added?
 
Rgbeard said:
I would believe you could use it for instrument training with no troubles at all.

Mike is correct, it's more that it becomes less desirable than obsolete.

Being unfamiliar with the details, is there an upgrade path for the G1000 to get WAAS added?
Click to expand...

My understanding is there is no WAAS upgrade path for first gen G1000 with the KAP140.
 
Can’t imagine spending all the moola on non-WAAS g1000. Honestly didn’t know that existed until today
 
Do they even create non-WAAS G1000s anymore? I don't think so. And that means that the G1000 system is already pretty old and probably more susceptible to problems. Personally, I wouldn't buy one.
 
Plane is worth significantly less as the 'glass' you have cannot be updated, but completely replaced.
 
You lose a lot of capability with non-WAAS (TSO c129) GPS. As in no LPV capability, and the fact that TSO c129 is not approved for sole means of navigation for IFR operations. (You must have working, alternative navigation means on board, e.g. VOR.) TSO c146 (WAAS) GPS has LPV capability and can be used as a stand-alone means of navigation. LPV approaches are one of the major benefits of GPS navigation, and allows access to all sorts of non-metro airports in IFR conditions that may or may not be possible with LNAV only approaches.
 
chemgeek said:
You lose a lot of capability with non-WAAS (TSO c129) GPS. As in no LPV capability, and the fact that TSO c129 is not approved for sole means of navigation for IFR operations. (You must have working, alternative navigation means on board, e.g. VOR.) TSO c146 (WAAS) GPS has LPV capability and can be used as a stand-alone means of navigation. LPV approaches are one of the major benefits of GPS navigation, and allows access to all sorts of non-metro airports in IFR conditions that may or may not be possible with LNAV only approaches.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? G1000 series has always had dual nav/com/gps. Just not always WAAS, which loses very little. You can even do off airway direct to with it's GPS.

Are you talking GPS in general or were you actually referring to the G1000 setup?
 
As one with a non-WAAS G1K, I don't see it as a big deal at all. You don't have quite as low minimums, but it is still very usable for IFR approaches. There are also plenty of ILS approaches. It would be nice to have WAAS, but thanks to an over-zealous FSDO in the North West who was busy putting small plane manufacturers out of business while ignoring the large ones, the cost became prohibitive in what was advertised as a 'WAAS-ready' airplane.
 
Rgbeard said:
I would believe you could use it for instrument training with no troubles at all.

Mike is correct, it's more that it becomes less desirable than obsolete.

Being unfamiliar with the details, is there an upgrade path for the G1000 to get WAAS added?
Click to expand...

1) Garmin has apparently quit upgrading them from the factory. You basically have to find spares or a wrecked airplane somewhere.

2) The upgrade is expensive. Like $30000.

Ravioli said:
What are you talking about? G1000 series has always had dual nav/com/gps. Just not always WAAS, which loses very little. You can even do off airway direct to with it's GPS.

Are you talking GPS in general or were you actually referring to the G1000 setup?
Click to expand...

Losing WAAS is kind of a big deal. Not everywhere has an ILS around every corner and there's also convenience. WAAS also allows you to get better vertical guidance on non-LP and LPV approaches and also allows you to skip RAIM checks. It is an even bigger deal as you get some airports with ILS that will lose it as part of the MON project.
 
For instrument training and practical test purposes, an LPV approach can be flown in lieu of an ILS. So from that perspective, an instrument rating applicant will have to find an actual ILS to take the practical test in a non-WAAS plane.

ADS-B is also an issue. You need a WAAS position source for it. So you would need to add some kind of WAAS equipment to equip for ADS-B.

Can the G1000 interface with an external navigator, such as a GNX 375?
 
N1120A said:
2) The upgrade is expensive. Like $30000.
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That echoes what a friend of mine that just sold a DA40 with non-WAAS G1000. He got several quotes in the $30k range to upgrade to WAAS. That's why he sold.
 
N1120A said:
Losing WAAS is kind of a big deal. Not everywhere has an ILS around every corner and there's also convenience. WAAS also allows you to get better vertical guidance on non-LP and LPV approaches and also allows you to skip RAIM checks. It is an even bigger deal as you get some airports with ILS that will lose it as part of the MON project.
Click to expand...

Another WTF response. A non-WAAS gps approach? Are you suicidal?

The OP was asking about purchasing an early G1000 equipped plane. Sure, buy it, fly it, have fun. What's this crap about "Oh, you really want x, y or z" Matters not.There is nothing in a WAAS G1000 that will keep anyone alive.

Most will never know they don't have LPV.

Oh my god, RAIM checks. Last I heard nobody ever cashes them.
 
Ravioli said:
What are you talking about? G1000 series has always had dual nav/com/gps. Just not always WAAS, which loses very little. You can even do off airway direct to with it's GPS.

Are you talking GPS in general or were you actually referring to the G1000 setup?
Click to expand...

Referring to the use of GPS as sole means of navigation. You must be able to receive appropriate ground-based navigation to use TSO c129 navigation for IFR. I have been in a situation where I did not have appropriate VOR navigation along my cleared route of flight (decommissioned or out of service VORs), so WAAS was required to legally navigate. This will become more common as VORs are decommissioned. On my return flight, if not WAAS-equipped, I wouln't have been able to land at the destination with non-LPV minimums. Just sayin...WAAS is a big deal in the current and future airspace system.
 
I'd be weary of buying any plane with such an expensive, yet outdated piece of equipment that isn't modularly replaceable.

If you have an old 430 and it craps out, you just go spend 10K and get a new fancy 600 series. But if that older G1000 craps out, it's a huge repair bill (if you can even get parts) or a full panel redo.
 
Bonchie said:
I'd be weary of buying any plane with such an expensive, yet outdated piece of equipment that isn't modularly replaceable.

If you have an old 430 and it craps out, you just go spend 10K and get a new fancy 600 series. But if that older G1000 craps out, it's a huge repair bill (if you can even get parts) or a full panel redo.
Click to expand...

That was my impression of it. It's not so much the ability to use LPV and lower minimums (although I'm sure that's nice), it's the fact that those G1000's are going to be extremely expensive to replace, and prohibitively expensive to upgrade (whether that be to WAAS or panel replacement). As beautiful as the G1000 is, I'd almost prefer a G5000/GTN/G3X type setups where it's a bit more compartmentalized and able to be upgraded individually as technology or failures occur. Doesn't look as unified as two big PFD/MFDs and center control panel, but I'd probably have to trade the aesthetics for panel flexibility. If the aircraft were WAAS-equipped, maybe it sways me a bit where the only major concern is repair of existing G1000 panels and less about future upgrade potential, but it'd still be a concern of mine.
 
Thanks for the insights. A lower asking price than comparable airframes is what made us consider it but I think we'll probably pass on it and keep looking.
 
bgreenhaw said:
...but I think we'll probably pass on it and keep looking
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Yup... something better will be out there. And by something better, I mean an airplane that isn't going to need bagoodles of cash to have the utility you desire.
 
bgreenhaw said:
Thanks for the insights. A lower asking price than comparable airframes is what made us consider it but I think we'll probably pass on it and keep looking.
Click to expand...

Honestly, look for an older version of the same plane with a 6 pack, if able. Particularly if it is on the Garmin G3x or, at least, G5 list. Or even the Dynon HDX list. You can probably spend the same or less to upgrade to that much more reasonable, and capable, glass
 
bgreenhaw said:
Thanks for the insights. A lower asking price than comparable airframes is what made us consider it but I think we'll probably pass on it and keep looking.
Click to expand...

Did you ever post the actual ad? You could be shooting yourself in the foot by making the decision based only on your question about G1000 WAAS and the opinions of a whole lot of gas bags that won't be putting a penny behind their brilliance.
 
I was in the market for a G1000 T182 last year and I narrowed my search down to 2007+ planes because WAAS (GIA-63W) was standard and I wanted the ability to fly the LPV approaches and it made the upgrade path to ADSB easier. I did notice that there seemed to be a price premium built into the 2007 and newer airframes but of course the market is so limited that could have just been confirmation bias.

If I was planning on keeping the 182 for longer term I’d definitely be considering the NXI upgrade that’s now available but that’s a separate discussion.
 
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