Buying a plane with no logs

Salty

Salty

Touchdown! Greaser!
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Salty
Hypothetical scenario
  • Mutual agreement between buyer and seller that plane is worth 150-160k if logs came through review with no issues
  • Physical inspection of the plane shows it to be well cared for and extremely clean
  • Maintained by one mechanic for past 20ish years
  • Everyone involved thought someone else had the logs, but they cannot be found
  • Mechanic has records for last annual, perhaps more, but not for sure.
  • Buyer is still interested in the aircraft
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
 
What ADs are you going to be stuck with because of a lack of logs? For example, a spar AD.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
What ADs are you going to be stuck with because of a lack of logs? For example, a spar AD.
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yep, the spar AD would probably be an issue, even though everyone "knows" it does not apply.
 
How well can you document how old each major system is? I keep track of hours on alternator, magnetos, vacuum, prop, etc so I know how old they're getting. I'd hate not having logs. Not sure how to value all that. $30k???
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
How well can you document how old each major system is? I keep track of hours on alternator, magnetos, vacuum, prop, etc so I know how old they're getting. I'd hate not having logs. Not sure how to value all that. $30k???
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Yeah that would be a concern. For me, I’d have to assume all of those major components are near end of life and account for that accordingly. I would also be hesitant with having the same set of eyes looking after it for so long, depending on what kind of mechanic it is. That said, if all else checks out and the pre-buy doesn’t reveal anything eye opening, it might still be worth a look if the price is right.
 
There's a fair number of ads that will have to be verified. I think the spar is really the only killer. Problem is you'll probably end up with 10k just verifying everything is complied with. They lost the logs.... I'd ask them to pay for the inspection & any repairs. Then negotiate whatever you think the value reduction is when you sell it. 20-30 sounds about right. Might be a good thing for you in the end.
 
Salty said:
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
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It depends on the model aircraft. Some specific models are known to start with no previous logs and are sold at that price level or above. There's a method to legally deal with the lost logs but if the seller and buyer are in agreement to this point have the seller recreate the minimum records per 91.417 as a condition of sale. For example, we did this on an L-19 BirdDog and the price did not change.
 
What type of aircraft?

Are there any time limited components on it?
 
Well, it's hypothetical, but let's just say it's a 1977 PA32R-300 for fun.
 
How is it that the same mechanic has been maintaining it for 20 years but only has documentation for last year? Where has he been putting log entries? Logs all got last between annuals 2 years ago?
 
Odd that all of the maintenance records would go missing since last annual if it has been flying. Where was any work since annual recorded such as oil changes, tire changes, repaired discrepancies, etc. Before I were to place an aircraft on market, I’d review my records and get them ready to present to a potential buyer. Now if it’s a barn find or estate sale then it is more understandable but then the aircraft would likely need a lot of work. A pristine flyer with no records doesn’t pass my smell test.
 
Depends on if your pockets are deep enough to deal with the unknown...... err their pockets.
 
The plane was bought after the last annual, new owner is an IA and personally reviewed the logs at that time. He thought the mechanic still had the logs, mechanic says he handed them over. Mechanic had held the logs for the prior 20 years for previous owner.

Hypothetically.

The plane has not been put up for sale, two friends were discussing a possible deal. It wasn't until things started getting serious that the logs were found to be missing.

Hypothetically.
 
Salty said:
The plane was bought after the last annual, new owner is an IA and personally reviewed the logs at that time. He thought the mechanic still had the logs, mechanic says he handed them over. Mechanic had held the logs for the prior 20 years for previous owner.

Hypothetically.

The plane has not been put up for sale, two friends were discussing a possible deal. Hypothetically.
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There are a lot of thieves out there, but you know that. If you are comfortable, go for it..... err, if they are comfortable.
 
If it’s a nice plane, we are going to be digging through storage locations together. They surely aren’t in the trash.
 
Salty said:
The plane was bought after the last annual, new owner is an IA and personally reviewed the logs at that time. He thought the mechanic still had the logs, mechanic says he handed them over. Mechanic had held the logs for the prior 20 years for previous owner.

Hypothetically.

The plane has not been put up for sale, two friends were discussing a possible deal. It wasn't until things started getting serious that the logs were found to be missing.

Hypothetically.
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Is this hypothetical airplane hangared in Red Flag City?
 
texasclouds said:
If it’s a nice plane, we are going to be digging through storage locations together. They surely aren’t in the trash.
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Hypothetically, I can see him tearing his hangar apart from here. :) Hypothetically.
 
Salty said:
*edit*

I get it now. Duh.
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It's the place where the same mechanic does all the maintenance on an aircraft for 20 years and then "loses" the logs just in time to not turn them over to a new owner.... ;)
 
Salty said:
Well, it's hypothetical, but let's just say it's a 1977 PA32R-300 for fun.
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My AP has a Lance in the shop now the owner just bought from Florida. Owner put 90k in avionics in (not sure how, didn't look like anything special). Agreed to a price to sell it, before the first annual was done. Prior to it being in Florida it was in South Africa. Missing first 10 years of logs. Annual in Florida says "all ad's complied with". But no other documentation on it. Landing gear is a mess. Just wobbles around everything is so wore out. Now the owner is ****ed at the AP because he wouldn't sign off on it and owner was stupid enough to agree to a price before the annual was done.
 
Salty said:
two friends were discussing a possible deal
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Hypothetically... if the buyer friend is satisfied with the aircraft condition, have the two friends work togather to recreate the 91.417 records and verify the current aircraft configuration. Buy a new log book and have the seller friend make an entry detailing all the correct total times along with an explanation of the lost logs and have it notarized. Depending on the friendship create any additional errors/omissions type agreements and or adjust the purchase price as needed. Enjoy your new airplane... hyothetically.
 
Salty said:
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
Click to expand...
No logs. Since you're unsure about AD compliance I'll assume no AD list from last year's annual the mechanic " has records for." I'll also assume the current owner(s) won't pick up any of the inspection/compliance tab.

I'd be polite in the event the logs turn up and all is well, but it would be a hard pass for me in the meantime if my assumptions are correct.

Nauga,
from the sawmill
 
nauga said:
No logs. Since you're unsure about AD compliance I'll assume no AD list from last year's annual the mechanic " has records for." I'll also assume the current owner(s) won't pick up any of the inspection/compliance tab.

I'd be polite in the event the logs turn up and all is well, but it would be a hard pass for me in the meantime if my assumptions are correct.

Nauga,
from the sawmill
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Since I didn't personally see the last annual with AD list, I would assume it doesn't exist, purely from a "cover my ass" perspective, even if it does exist. Way too easy to fake that one after the fact.

I agree, getting the plane back to legally documented (including proof of, and actual AD compliance) would have to be done by seller before a deal could occur. But even then, I wouldn't be willing to pay the same as the original agreed value.....but I'm having difficulty figuring out what's fair.
 
Racerx said:
I thought it might have been @Jim K. This hypothetical Lance doesn't have an engine recently removed for major work does it?
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Nah. My hypothetical airplane still has hypothetical logbooks, including for its hypothetical engine. Hypothetically.
 
I'm really hoping that someone finds the hypothetical logs, but the more I think through this, I think what's most fair for everyone is for the guy to keep it. He's seen the logs himself, so there is value there that isn't there for me, who hasn't seen them, therefore the plane is always going to be worth more to him than to me. And yes, I'm assuming that there's no funny business going on. I've seen nothing to lead me to that conclusion.
 
Salty said:
I agree, getting the plane back to legally documented (including proof of, and actual AD compliance) would have to be done by seller before a deal could occur. But even then, I wouldn't be willing to pay the same as the original agreed value.....but I'm having difficulty figuring out what's fair.
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FWIW: The brokers I worked for would generally put a 20%-40% value on aircraft records for an aircraft of this type. Aircraft with life-limited parts such as turbine engines, etc. the value increases to 50%+ of the purchase cost with some aircraft getting to the point of no sale except as scrap value.
 
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Does it hurt the value, sure. Is it the end of the world, no... Given past experiences with previous log book entries/work I'm not sure how much logs are actually worth these days.
 
Salty said:
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
Click to expand...

Depends on make/model and number of life limited components. Might be a deal killer so buyer doesn't sound like the brightest bulb on the tree.
 
Salty said:
Hypothetical scenario
  • Mutual agreement between buyer and seller that plane is worth 150-160k if logs came through review with no issues
  • Physical inspection of the plane shows it to be well cared for and extremely clean
  • Maintained by one mechanic for past 20ish years
  • Everyone involved thought someone else had the logs, but they cannot be found
  • Mechanic has records for last annual, perhaps more, but not for sure.
  • Buyer is still interested in the aircraft
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
Click to expand...

Any ADs needed as a result of missing logs to be completed by Seller (and any corresponding surprises discovered to be addressed by Seller). Seller to complete all inspections and document them. Seller to complete all prior to transaction completion. Seller may request a deposit from Buyer. I would say 30-50k discount, it’s subjective. The Buyer is buying an airplane that now has a limited market upon resale. Yes there are still buyers and sellers but there are less of them and it takes more time to sell. You might get lucky and find a sucker, lots of suckers in Aviation with no concept of money.
 
mandm said:
Any ADs needed as a result of missing logs to be completed by Seller (and any corresponding surprises discovered to be addressed by Seller). Seller to complete all inspections and document them. Seller to complete all prior to transaction completion. Seller may request a deposit from Buyer. I would say 30-50k discount, it’s subjective. The Buyer is buying an airplane that now has a limited market upon resale. Yes there are still buyers and sellers but there are less of them and it takes more time to sell. You might get lucky and find a sucker, lots of suckers in Aviation with no concept of money.
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Seller is an A&P/IA. He says sure, and gives you a brand new logbook that says all ADs complied with. Good?

This whole story stinks. Current owner is an IA and wasn't given the logbooks by previous owner's IA who had conducted 20 annual inspections. Maybe there's a legitimate reason for that, but I can think of too many illegitimate reasons. And the current IA owner is ready to get rid of it.... Everybody has seen the logs and everybody knows something except the n̶e̶x̶t̶ ̶s̶u̶c̶k̶e̶r̶ buyer.
 
Do you ever plan on selling it? If it's truly clean, and you're comfortable that the hypothetical plane is sound, knock 30 - 40% off of the logs complete price, get it checked by an independent AP/IA and if OK, fly the crap out of it.
 
SkyDog58 said:
Odd that all of the maintenance records would go missing since last annual if it has been flying. Where was any work since annual recorded such as oil changes, tire changes, repaired discrepancies, etc. Before I were to place an aircraft on market, I’d review my records and get them ready to present to a potential buyer. Now if it’s a barn find or estate sale then it is more understandable but then the aircraft would likely need a lot of work. A pristine flyer with no records doesn’t pass my smell test.
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Ours got lost for about six months. In the shop, no less. We believe they were given the the wrong person at first, and it took them forever to figure it out.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Ours got lost for about six months. In the shop, no less. We believe they were given the the wrong person at first, and it took them forever to figure it out.
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I was once given someone else's propellor log book when the shop returned my propellor to me. They dropped off the propellor and book in my hangar when I wasn't there. I was smart enough to not have given them mine in the first place, so I knew it wasn't mine right away. I promptly got it back to them, but if I were a jerk, I might not bother until someone came asking about it.
 
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