Buying a plane with no logs

Theoretically, the logs have been found in one of the seller's safe's they were sure they were not in.
 
Half Fast said:
Y’know, I’m surprised @SixPapaCharlie hasn’t yet created a series of videos on this topic.

I can see it now: every week a crackerjack team of experienced, eclectic, expert investigators go on the hunt for a plane’s missing logbooks. Leaving no stone unturned, they interview previous owners, search the records of defunct flight schools, track down bitter ex-spouses, sift through the disarray of aviation maintenance shops, talk with bankers and insurance agents, all in a dedicated quest to reunite logbooks with orphaned aircraft.

Imagine the nail-biting suspense of the hunt, the thrill of each new lead, the excitement when a logbook is located, and the bitter disappointment of a dead-end.

Bryan, what say you?

:D
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I am probably giving away the ending or plot line...
every week a crackerjack team of experienced, eclectic, expert investigators on the hunt for the logbooks missing airplane.

We heard there is an old retired crop duster pilot living in a shack at the corner for field who might know where our elusive airplane is....

We meet with the pilot, but he is reluctant to talk about it, finally he indicates that he once say it in a hanger with a 13 printed on it.

After consulting the airport records we finally locate what we believe to be hanger 13... an old wooden hanger hanger, We have obtained permission from the airport manager to cut off the lock and look inside.

Here we are at Hanger 13, the expert with bolt cutters approaches the door, he places the bolt cutters across the lock and cuts the lock off. He pushes the old door open... Tune in next week to find out what is in the Hanger 13?
 
Salty said:
The plane is airworthy as he has the last annual sign off. :rolleyes:
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So flying without a valid transponder inspection is legal now??? And also ELT checks are not required?

You can be unairworthy for a jillion other things NOT covered by an annual condition inspection. Appendix D does not cover many things that makes your AC unairworthy.

An annual inspection is required ONCE every 12 months. But the IA is not signing off for anything other than ON THAT DAY your AC complied with 43 part D. The next day you can be unairworthy for a jillion other things.

In this example, there is NO WAY an IA could complete an annual as without logs, they cannot check AD compliance, 337s, ICAs, and STCs.

But the dirty little secret is that there is no FAA definition of 'airworthiness'.

14-3-4-1 AIRWORTHY OR UNAIRWORTHY? The term “airworthiness” or one of its derivatives is not defined in Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR). Nevertheless, a clear understanding of its meaning is an essential tool for the compliance program. Airworthiness is a concept that represents the substance of two of the most fundamental safety regulations: 14 CFR part 43, § 43.15(a) and 14 CFR part 91, § 91.7(a).
 
If you flew it to California, then you would have been through the desert in a plane with no logs.
 
pfarber said:
So flying without a valid transponder inspection is legal now??? And also ELT checks are not required?

You can be unairworthy for a jillion other things NOT covered by an annual condition inspection. Appendix D does not cover many things that makes your AC unairworthy.

An annual inspection is required ONCE every 12 months. But the IA is not signing off for anything other than ON THAT DAY your AC complied with 43 part D. The next day you can be unairworthy for a jillion other things.

In this example, there is NO WAY an IA could complete an annual as without logs, they cannot check AD compliance, 337s, ICAs, and STCs.

But the dirty little secret is that there is no FAA definition of 'airworthiness'.

14-3-4-1 AIRWORTHY OR UNAIRWORTHY? The term “airworthiness” or one of its derivatives is not defined in Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR). Nevertheless, a clear understanding of its meaning is an essential tool for the compliance program. Airworthiness is a concept that represents the substance of two of the most fundamental safety regulations: 14 CFR part 43, § 43.15(a) and 14 CFR part 91, § 91.7(a).
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Yes. Flying without a transponder is legal. Always has been. You are an A&P, right? :rolleyes:

The IA DID have the logs when he completed the annual. Transponders are not required equipment for airworthiness, so perhaps you misspoke when you said the aircraft wasn’t airworthy. You’re quite the ray of sunshine, eh?
 
Good news - you found the logs. Better to have the logs even without the discount a logless plane would have had. Keep us updated!
 
GeorgeC said:
If you flew it to California, then you would have been through the desert in a plane with no logs.
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My favorite lyric from that song: The ocean is a desert with it's life underground, and a perfect disguise above
 
That song is stuck in my head now ……….
 
pfarber said:
But the dirty little secret is that there is no FAA definition of 'airworthiness'. 14-3-4-1 AIRWORTHY OR UNAIRWORTHY? The term “airworthiness” or one of its derivatives is not defined in Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.) or Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations (14 CFR). Nevertheless, a clear understanding of its meaning is an essential tool for the compliance program. Airworthiness is a concept that represents the substance of two of the most fundamental safety regulations: 14 CFR part 43, § 43.15(a) and 14 CFR part 91, § 91.7(a).
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Perhaps in your attempt to dazzle… you should include the entire quoted section. While there actually is a Title 14 definition of airworthy in Part 3.5, the section you partially quoted from the FSIMS 8900.1 goes on to define the statutory (Title 49) and regulatory interpretation of what is considered airworthy. So no “dirty little secret” as that interpretation, i.e., “definition,” has been in the public domain for some time. There are even several LOIs on the matter with one linked below. And since you are chronically lazy to provide such established guidance I’ve posted it below those interested.

Entire 8900.1 quoted section:
https://fsims.faa.gov/wdocs/8900.1/v14 compliance & enforcement/chapter 03/14_003_004.htm
Title 49 U.S.C. § 44704(d)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/49/44704
Title 14 Part 3.5
https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-A/part-3/subpart-A
FAA LOI
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...lightAttendants_2008_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

pfarber said:
In this example, there is NO WAY an IA could complete an annual as without logs, they cannot check AD compliance, 337s, ICAs, and STCs.
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You actually believe this? So if this was your aircraft you would throw it away? If so, let me know and I'll come pick it up. Simply amazing. :rolleyes:
 
I found your logs in a locker at the buss station. Send me 10K and I will mail them to you....:rolleyes:
 
I have a feeling someone is going to be doing a lot of scanning in the next few days.
 
WDD said:
I have a feeling someone is going to be doing a lot of scanning in the next few days.
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It'll probably be weeks. :eek:
 
FWIW IMHO the Six is a very sweet plane. Club or standard seating?
 
Club
 
Salty said:
Hypothetical scenario
  • Mutual agreement between buyer and seller that plane is worth 150-160k if logs came through review with no issues
  • Physical inspection of the plane shows it to be well cared for and extremely clean
  • Maintained by one mechanic for past 20ish years
  • Everyone involved thought someone else had the logs, but they cannot be found
  • Mechanic has records for last annual, perhaps more, but not for sure.
  • Buyer is still interested in the aircraft
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
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How much is your life worth to you?
 
Salty said:
I'm not sure what your point is, but a bunch of 30 year old paper with handwritten scratching on it doesn't do all that much to make you safer.
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It would if it prevented my wife finding out I bought an airplane missing almost 30 years worth of logs.

Nauga,
who's got to sleep sometime
 
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