Buying a plane with no logs

If the logs are missing, do you not have to re-do every AD, as you have no proof that any of them were done?
 
WDD said:
If the logs are missing, do you not have to re-do every AD, as you have no proof that any of them were done?
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You have to verify they were done. In some cases that means doing them, in some cases it just means inspection.
 
WDD said:
If the logs are missing, do you not have to re-do every AD, as you have no proof that any of them were done?
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That and its extent would depend. If it is just an inspection with no terminating action, you would just need to do the inspection and sign it off as complied with. If it is a repetitive you would also need to record when it is due again. If there is a terminating action, you’d inspect to determine if it had been done. If it had, you’d make a log entry stating that previous compliance was verified by inspection. There is more to it but that is the basics. Where it could get complicated is if an AD was complied with via an AMOC and you have no record of the AMOC or its approval. Aviation is fun!
 
When I ever buy a plane I would prefer it to not have logs....


..in the potty seat...
 
Rgbeard said:
Do you have to presume the engine to be runout unless otherwise proven?
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For the purposes of Part 91, that doesn't necessarily matter as TBO isn't mandatory. However, ADs are, and so that's where you're going to run into issues if that engine "might" have a [bad crankshaft, bad cylinders, bad lifters, insert basically anything else that could have an AD].

For the purposes of negotiation, though, I'd assume the engine run out.

Really, no logs is a big deal on an older airplane. A lot of ADs have come out over the years.
 
I would have my own mechanic physically look the plane over, and then offer bottom dollar. Yeah you are going to spend money to get everything up to speed, and your resale value will be just as low as you paid pending you don’t find anything major wrong, and that is after eating the cost of a mechanic putting in some hours.
 
My IA has already looked at it. It’s in good shape.
 
Ted said:
For the purposes of Part 91, that doesn't necessarily matter as TBO isn't mandatory. However, ADs are, and so that's where you're going to run into issues if that engine "might" have a [bad crankshaft, bad cylinders, bad lifters, insert basically anything else that could have an AD].

For the purposes of negotiation, though, I'd assume the engine run out.

Really, no logs is a big deal on an older airplane. A lot of ADs have come out over the years.
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Yeah one issue is that I recall there being a couple AD's on the IO-540 that were specific to engines built at a certain time or certain by a certain builder, and would require splitting the case to verify.

Not sure if this will be readable:
Screenshot_20220214-201214_Sheets.jpg

ETA: This cuts off the half dozen or so recurring ones.
 
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There might be things in the log books that would require additional AD compliance, like if there was a prop strike, etc... Without logbooks, I would go on the assumption that it has had a prop strike in the past, damage history, or anything the sellers want to hide.
 
How much can your mechanic check? Removed fuel tanks and checked the spars for cracks and corrosion? Checked both day and night flight? How’s the hoses, compressions? Are you sure you’ll keep the plane for awhile? You may take a huge loss when selling later on without logs.
 
Hang 4 said:
Do you ever plan on selling it? If it's truly clean, and you're comfortable that the hypothetical plane is sound, knock 30 - 40% off of the logs complete price, get it checked by an independent AP/IA and if OK, fly the crap out of it.
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Even if the hypothetical buyer plans to keep it forever, one never knows when one might have to set the plane down in a hypothetical orange grove. How much hypothetical hull coverage do you carry for a plane without logs? Do you insure it for 40% more than you paid?

Hypothetically speaking, of course.
 
IMO the question need to be posed to the Buyers Future IA/A&P. How much is/might it cost for the next IA to verify all the required maintenance/AD's have been done. Which one time inspections might need to be redone?
What reoccuring inspections/rebuilds might need to be done because hours can't be determined. 500hr Mag inspections, Propeller inspections, AD's, anything else?
If the Buyer and Sellers IA is the same person, might be a good idea to get an pre-buy inspection and annual inspection estimate from another IA, Just for peace of mind when it come time for the buyer to sell the plane.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
brcase said:
IMO the question need to be posed to the Buyers Future IA/A&P. How much is/might it cost for the next IA to verify all the required maintenance/AD's have been done. Which one time inspections might need to be redone?
What reoccuring inspections/rebuilds might need to be done because hours can't be determined. 500hr Mag inspections, Propeller inspections, AD's, anything else?
If the Buyer and Sellers IA is the same person, might be a good idea to get an pre-buy inspection and annual inspection estimate from another IA, Just for peace of mind when it come time for the buyer to sell the plane.

It's the question, how much is your 1st Annual Inspection going to cost you?

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
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Definitely not the same mechanics. And my mechanic will not have to redo AD check at annual (other than the normal annual AD check) because sellers mechanic will have done that before sale, and my IA will have verified and agreed before a transaction would ever occur. First annual would be no different from any other first annual, since those issues created by lack of logs would be resolved before the transaction occurs. Hypothetically.

It would be insured for full value with logs. I ain’t taking that bath again.
 
You guys are talking engine and spar, and that makes sense. But what if it's something else. Guessing here, different options - non-TSO'd avionics or other parts? Some kind of damage that was repaired? Or if it's that someone intentionally lost the logs out of spite, could they have done something to the plane? Or maybe someone did some repair not quite right in the past, and this makes that work anonymous.
 
Hypothetically… what I always find interesting with these discussions is the importance people put on 50 years of logbooks when in reality the only legal requirement is to keep one year of those logbooks. Ever wonder why?

Granted there are certain aircraft records that are required to be kept for more than a year but most either have a copy on FAA file or were verified complied with at the last annual. Correct? At worse, the most aircraft records one should have to reconfirm are less than 12 months old. So from a hypothetical point of view… what “value” does 50 years of logbooks have over 1 or 2 year’s worth of logbooks if they are not required to be kept in the first place?
 
Bell206 said:
Hypothetically… what I always find interesting with these discussions is the importance people put on 50 years of logbooks when in reality the only legal requirement is to keep one year of those logbooks. Ever wonder why?
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I don't put much importance on the logbooks, but I would want to know what happened to them. And why does the IA who bought the plane less than a year ago want to sell it now? Hypothetically. If the logbooks disappeared to conceal 20 years of pencil-whipped annuals, wouldn't that concern you?
 
Lindberg said:
Hypothetically. If the logbooks disappeared to conceal 20 years of pencil-whipped annuals, wouldn't that concern you?
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No, for two reasons. One, my only concern is to see the last/current annual as technically that sign-off invalidates all previous annual sign-offs regardless of timeframe. And two, how would you determine an annual was "pencil-whipped" from a logbook entry?
 
I had a "friend" do the first annual on my 180. He missed so much its not even funny. Like a burned exhaust valve, and exhaust that was near death, detached ribs in the horizontal. His standard entry for AD's was to simply state, "all AD's complied with", but with no enumeration of what AD's and how they were complied with or NA. When his own plane went to beagles for hail damage, the bill got much larger for serious structural problems that he either never saw, or never wanted to fix and document.
I have seen professional log entries, and pencil whipped. You might guess a good annual was pencil whipped, but I doubt you'd ever think a pencil whipped was the real deal. The GOOD entries in my 69 year old airplane are pretty thorough, the others? Well, they just say the airplane is A OK, without any specifics.
 
Wagondriver said:
His standard entry for AD's was to simply state, "all AD's complied with", but with no enumeration of what AD's and how they were complied with or NA.
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FYI: just for comparison to the minimum regulatory requirements on an annual by an APIA: the only time an IA needs to reference an AD is if he finds one not in compliance and lists it as a discrepancy per 43.11. The only person required by rule to maintain a status list of ADs is the owner per 91.417. So if an IA performs an annual inspection per 43 Appx D, the only write up he is required to enter is something similar to this: “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.” And nothing more. Now if he performs other work in conjunction with an annual then each of those tasks requires its own entry per 43.9. So while some entries may appear "better" than others, those entries need to be taken in context to work actually performed and the legal requirements. A 2 page maintenance entry does not equate to an aircraft that is more airworthy or legal than an aircraft with 2 entries, but regardless it's the owner who controls the aircraft records and not the mechanic.
 
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Bell206 said:
No, for two reasons. One, my only concern is to see the last/current annual as technically that sign-off invalidates all previous annual sign-offs regardless of timeframe. And two, how would you determine an annual was "pencil-whipped" from a logbook entry?
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You would determine the inspection was shoddy or some work wasn't performed by looking at the airplane. And the logbook entry would be the proof of fraud or other malfeasance.
 
Salty said:
Hypothetical scenario
  • Mutual agreement between buyer and seller that plane is worth 150-160k if logs came through review with no issues
  • Physical inspection of the plane shows it to be well cared for and extremely clean
  • Maintained by one mechanic for past 20ish years
  • Everyone involved thought someone else had the logs, but they cannot be found
  • Mechanic has records for last annual, perhaps more, but not for sure.
  • Buyer is still interested in the aircraft
What do you think is a reasonable price to pay for said aircraft that's fair for all involved?
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For ME,
Starting at your agreed value of 160 and PA32 type:
I’d deduct engine (firewall forward) and prop o/h which gets you probably close to 100.
Then I’d deduct 40% for no logs and be willing to pay around 60 total.

I treated my logbooks like they were worth 6 figures.
 
Lindberg said:
You would determine the inspection was shoddy or some work wasn't performed by looking at the airplane. And the logbook entry would be the proof of fraud or other malfeasance.
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FYI: I was replying to your statement: "If the logbooks disappeared to conceal 20 years of pencil-whipped annuals". No mention of looking at aircraft.

As to looking at the aircraft yes you definitly can determine the quality of mx and inspection. And more quickly on some aircraft than others. But regardless I'm still only concerned with the last signed annual as that APIA owns every previous annual signed and the current condition of the aircraft. If that IA wants to chase ghosts from 20 years ago that is his decision. Plus you can throw in the owner for measure as any issue of fraud or in some cases "malfeasance" will fall under his oversight as well.
 
Bell206 said:
FYI: just for comparison to the minimum regulatory requirements on an annual by an APIA: the only time an IA needs to reference an AD is if he finds one not in compliance and lists it as a discrepancy per 43.11. The only person required by rule to maintain a status list of ADs is the owner per 91.417. So if an IA performs an annual inspection per 43 Appx D, the only write up he is required to enter is something similar to this: “I certify that this aircraft has been inspected in accordance with annual inspection and was determined to be in airworthy condition.” And nothing more. Now if he performs other work in conjunction with an annual then each of those tasks requires its own entry per 43.9. So while some entries may appear "better" than others, those entries need to be taken in context to work actually performed and the legal requirements. A 2 page maintenance entry does not equate to an aircraft that is more airworthy or legal than an aircraft with 2 entries, but regardless it's the owner who controls the aircraft records and not the mechanic.
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That may be the legal requirement, but, it makes one question whether he even looked up the AD's. In my case he did NOT.
 
I would hit up the FAA and make sure there are no significant 337s on file also.

The owner is basically flying an unairworthy AC as there are no records of anything like pitot static checks, xponder checks, elt checks etc. All those need to be redone also.

That plane is worth AT MOST 50% of ask unless the current owner brings all the required entries up to date.
 
The plane is airworthy as he has the last annual sign off. :rolleyes:
 
Wagondriver said:
That may be the legal requirement, but, it makes one question whether he even looked up the AD's. In my case he did NOT.
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What makes everyone think that the years of previous annuals and logs entries were all legit to begin with? Plenty of horror stories on this forum where someone buys a plane with all the logs, all the annuals signed off, all the AD complied with. They get it to their new mechanic, and the new mechanic basically tells them the plane is a disaster and will requires tens of thousands of dollars to get it right. What is most important is finding that one situation where it was gear up, prop strike, etc that would be in that log.
 
mondtster said:
What type of aircraft?

Are there any time limited components on it?
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If it is a Grumman with life limited carry through spar and wings that can not be time verified, the plane is unairworthy.
 
Wagondriver said:
That may be the legal requirement, but, it makes one question whether he even looked up the AD's. In my case he did NOT.
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This is more an integrity issue for the APIA and if the owner even thinks this may be a problem then perhaps the owner should look to hire APIAs with a bit more integrity. Not reviewing any items related to the airworthiness of the aircraft during an annual violates Part 43. In your case, I would have shutdown the annual and given my local friendly ASI a call "friend" or not if what you state is true. ;)
 
I never give my logs to no one. I have made copies but your not holding my originals. All my log entry's are on stickers I take them home and put in my log book myself.

Also I did get the 10 dollar FAA report on a CD before I bought my plane. You can get it in a PDF file immediately. Interesting looking at the previous owners and the financing they used in the past. Oh yea there were no liens on my plane before I bought it.

Then I have ordered it 2 more times since I owned it to make sure my AP is sending in 337s which he is. I have all my receipts on one big flight bag with my personal and plane log books which weighs about 10 pounds now. Should make the next owner happy since it is all in there.
 
Y’know, I’m surprised @SixPapaCharlie hasn’t yet created a series of videos on this topic.

I can see it now: every week a crackerjack team of experienced, eclectic, expert investigators go on the hunt for a plane’s missing logbooks. Leaving no stone unturned, they interview previous owners, search the records of defunct flight schools, track down bitter ex-spouses, sift through the disarray of aviation maintenance shops, talk with bankers and insurance agents, all in a dedicated quest to reunite logbooks with orphaned aircraft.

Imagine the nail-biting suspense of the hunt, the thrill of each new lead, the excitement when a logbook is located, and the bitter disappointment of a dead-end.

Bryan, what say you?

:D
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Ours got lost for about six months. In the shop, no less. We believe they were given the the wrong person at first, and it took them forever to figure it out.
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We moved five times in the span of five years. After the moves I discovered my 172N's airframe logs vol. 1 and 2 (1977-1997) were missing. (I'd previously scanned everything so I had electronic copies, but still ... ) I phoned the shop in our old home state, 1300 miles away, which had done most of the work on the airplane. They denied having them. TWO YEARS LATER the shop phoned and said they found the logbooks, mixed in with the records of a Civil Air Patrol 172 they maintained, that was about to go up for auction.

Scanning everything saved my bacon again when an upholstery shop lost my weight and balance data package.
 
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