Buying a Plane......Which One?

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squincher

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squincher
I'm five years from retirement and I'm going to start flight training next spring with the goal of having an IFR rating and sufficient experience to fly with my wife to vacation destinations in the U.S. several times a year in retirement. I doubt I would ever fly more than about 1200 miles one way.

I have a lot of questions as I'm not really far enough into this to know what I don't know, so please pardon me if I ask stupid questions.

My initial thought is to buy something on the order of a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. Would that be suitable for the types of flights I'm considering or would it be like taking a road trip in a Ford Escort?

I see a lot of lower priced planes within a few hundred miles of requiring an overhaul. At least, I assume that is what SMOH means. It seems like buying an airplane is like buying an Italian motorcycle, in that a lot of them go on the market when the owner is looking at an expensive service. What would be a ballpark figure for an overhaul?

Right now, I could go about $40K on a plane. Could I reasonably expect something at that price not to nickle and dime me while I'm trying to get through training. I could go up to about $100K in five years, but I'd rather not rent all that time if I can get something in decent shape with my current budget?

How foolish is it to think I could go out of state, say 500 - 1000 miles, to get a plane after my solo flight and count it as the cross country solo flight for my PPL?
 
Renting is cheaper than owning for this phase. You buy a plane because you can't find it on the rental line, not to save money. Generally.

40k right now isn't going to buy you very many interesting XC planes. I'd keep my eye on what 100k can get me, and rent/train to get there on your 5 year timeline. I'd try to make 300 hours and get all of the stupid mistakes done in the rental corolla (C172) and out of the way.

SMOH is "since major overhaul" and low numbers are better. Most aircraft engines will make about 2000 hours before an overhaul. You'll want to learn your specific type's engine recommendations ("TBO"), time between overhauls.

1200nm in a C150 is like taking a roadtrip on a unicycle.

:) I think you're protected from foolish acts by asking us before you bought some flying thingamajig.
 
squincher said:
What would be a ballpark figure for an overhaul?

Right now, I could go about $40K on a plane. Could I reasonably expect something at that price not to nickle and dime me while I'm trying to get through training. I could go up to about $100K in five years, but I'd rather not rent all that time if I can get something in decent shape with my current budget?

How foolish is it to think I could go out of state, say 500 - 1000 miles, to get a plane after my solo flight and count it as the cross country solo flight for my PPL?
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Hi Squincher! Welcome to POA!

I don't believe you could count the flight as your solo cross country because not many CFI's would sign you off for something like that. Now you could get your instructor to go with you and fly the trip. It would be great training.

As far as overhaul costs, we have probably one of the least expensive engines to overhaul, and we spent a little over $21,000 for an overhaul last year.

You can fly a Cessna 150 on long cross countries. I know several folks who do just that. For a lot of people, though, the limited weight that a C-150 can carry and the relatively slow speed rules them out for a "serious" cross country airplane. Right now, the airplane market is on the high side, and buying a decent airplane within your budget is doable, but difficult. For example, the Traveler for sale on this site would be a nice cross country airplane, but the avionics are legacy ones which a lot of folks would not want. If that airplane is free of serious problems, and I didn't already have an airplane, I would jump on it.
 
What you buy is independent of being nickel and dimed….they all will do that.

btw….does your wife fly in small airplanes….with you at the controls? Better know that answer. Mine won’t and that changed what I thought about my flying. It’s different than I thought but it’s all goodness.
 
Before even considering purchasing a plane, look very carefully at whether you would pass a class 3 medical. If there's some reason you might not, you might want to stick with a Sport Pilot certificate. You won't be able to go instrument rated or fly at night, but you will be able to use your driver's license as a medical certificate. You would also be limited to flying LSAs, but with the upcoming LSA/SPL regulation shakeup, that may include many common trainers by the time you start flying.
 
And I guess I glossed over your other question.

An airplane is essentially worth the price of its (remaining life) engine and avionics. The airframe itself has little value,

Engine overhauls cost about $25k for the small ones and more as they go up.

Crappy avionics mean you’re dumping $20k or more (no limit) in the first year.
 
As someone that has gone from Dallas to Oshkosh in a 110 kt traveler several times, those "raod trips" quit being fun pretty quick.

7 hours getting bounced around in the heat is pretty exhausting. But that said, it was what I could afford at the time and I still chose it.

You do whatever you can do.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
As someone that has gone from Dallas to Oshkosh in a 110 kt traveler several times, those "raod trips" quit being fun pretty quick.

7 hours getting bounced around in the heat is pretty exhausting. But that said, it was what I could afford at the time and I still chose it.

You do whatever you can do.
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is that why you drink while flying? To cut the boredom?

there’s buzzing then there’s buzzzzed!
 
I’d rule out the 150 less on speed and more on endurance. But, what they said above, get some of the basics done and then buy a Mooney.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
What you buy is independent of being nickel and dimed….they all will do that.

btw….does your wife fly in small airplanes….with you at the controls? Better know that answer. Mine won’t and that changed what I thought about my flying. It’s different than I thought but it’s all goodness.
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You know, I'm not sure. She's been all over the U.S. and Europe with me on the back of a motorcycle, but she's never flown in a small plane at all.

CaptainXap said:
Before even considering purchasing a plane, look very carefully at whether you would pass a class 3 medical. If there's some reason you might not, you might want to stick with a Sport Pilot certificate. You won't be able to go instrument rated or fly at night, but you will be able to use your driver's license as a medical certificate. You would also be limited to flying LSAs, but with the upcoming LSA/SPL regulation shakeup, that may include many common trainers by the time you start flying.
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I plan to get the physical before I spend any money on anything else.

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. I'll just wait until I finish my PPL and actually fly some planes before I worry about what to buy.
 
The advice I give to anyone serious about learning to fly is to rent from somewhere that has multiple similar planes to train in.

The club I learned to fly in had 2 172s and 1 champ. Right before my solo, on 172 had exhaust issues, a month later the other had an issue with its flap tracks, after that, a rim issue, then one went down for overhaul, but that rarely delayed my training because I could fly the other (other things did).

On the other hand, the champ threw an exhaust stud while I was working on my tail wheel endorsement, and I was unable to finish it before moving.
 
I came here to see if Bonanza had already been a response, and I was not disappointed

classic, really the most classic of classics on POA these days. :D
 
squincher said:
You know, I'm not sure. She's been all over the U.S. and Europe with me on the back of a motorcycle, but she's never flown in a small plane at all.



I plan to get the physical before I spend any money on anything else.

Thanks, everyone, for the responses. I'll just wait until I finish my PPL and actually fly some planes before I worry about what to buy.
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Before filling out and submitting all the medical paperwork. If there is anything you think could be an issue, I'd schedule a consult with your AME before scheduling the actual medical.

I agree with most that 1200 miles in a 150 would be no fun. I rub shoulders with my 5 year old in a 150, they are really tight for any long distance. I'd wait it out for a while to buy, get some training in and evaluate how you feel about the planes you're renting. Prices are crazy right now, VREF on AOPA is showing 172/182 prices climbing Mt Everest, they have gone up like 50% just this year. Waiting it out could give prices time to drop a little and even out.
 
Fwiw, I would seriously consider going to a school to knock out the PPL in a couple of weeks, as opposed to trying to piecemeal it together at a local FBO over the course of a year or more. Then you don’t have to worry about buying a plane for training and are more likely to actually get it done.
 
squincher said:
My initial thought is to buy something on the order of a Cessna 150 or Piper Cherokee. Would that be suitable for the types of flights I'm considering or would it be like taking a road trip in a Ford Escort?
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Not even close. The Ford Escort can go twice as fast as a C150. Seriously, a C150 is not a cross-country airplane. 1200NM is more like an ultramarathon or those people who bike around the world - it can be done if you want a quirky experience but that really isn't what it is good at.
 
Can't add much to what others have written about the 150/152 class....
I learned in 152's and 150's, transitioned to 172's then others. Several years later, when I had been going through a stint of renting I think 182's and quite a bit in some retractable gear 172's at the time I rented a 152 one day for a fun flight over to the lake, just because. It was a bit breezy that day and that woke me up. Wow that thing was a kite compared to even the slightly heavier planes I'd been used to. Also not enough room in the panel to equip nicely for comfortable fun cross country....so it woudn't be my 1st choice.

MarkH said:
The advice I give to anyone serious about learning to fly is to rent from somewhere that has multiple similar planes to train in.

The club I learned to fly in had 2 172s and 1 champ. Right before my solo, on 172 had exhaust issues, a month later the other had an issue with its flap tracks, after that, a rim issue, then one went down for overhaul, but that rarely delayed my training because I could fly the other (other things did).

On the other hand, the champ threw an exhaust stud while I was working on my tail wheel endorsement, and I was unable to finish it before moving.
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Excellent advice...and also points to advice against buying your own plane to train in!

I spent a lot of money and time for a multi rating. The pane was up and down a lot for mechanicals. Eventually I was even signed off to solo and for the check ride....but another problem that didn't get resolved, & I never did the ride.
The school where I did most of my training had I think 2 or 3 152's and 1 or 2 150's. they only had a single 172 for instrument work, but it was in good shape...and they had a couple complex planes that would fill in if desired.... teh one and only multi engine that was very old and not in the best shape is what really bit me.
 
You could by my twin. I got my PPL at age 58, and now at age 60 taking my check ride for Instrument next month. Plan is to retire, buy a plane, and take wife where she wants to go. Jeckyl Island/other beach areas as well as Mackinaw Island type areas, when time permits when she's not stalking, I mean visiting the children/grandchildren.

My experience and advice:
1) Focus: Get your ratings (Instrument after PPL). Owing will take money and time away from getting those. And take time away from just having fun flying.

2) Rent: I rented for my PPL and Instrument, and will now continue to rent until I retire. Renting is cheaper than owning, and besides, until I'm retire, I really won't be flying 100 hours a year.

3) Figure out what you really need: I didn't know what I didn't know. Rent a variety of planes. I knew I wanted a 172. Now, I know it won't fit my mission. I knew I wanted a Tiger. After flying the wife in one for a few trips, she'll never set foot in a Tiger again. I knew I wanted an Archer. After sitting in one, I know it won't work. I knew a 182 would be too boring. After several trips and a few dozen hours, I know that's on the short list of what I need.

4) Misc Items that can ruin your day: Fun things you find out along the way. Insurance on retracts is now expensive, and for retired people may not even be available. Other planes have spars that may need expensive repairs, etc. Avionics - expensive and some are obsolete that you'll have to plan on replacing. Engines, etc.

5) Financing: $40k won't buy you what you need. Spending that on acquisition and paying the extra for owing it will take away from your multi year plan on how to build up the cash to buy what you really need. That is, the plan you need to make now so you have it when you retire.
 
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I was in a similar situation. Almost identical, in fact. I retired in Feb of this year, having earned my Sport Pilot license in 2017 and my Private in 2019. I spent the last year or so shopping for a plane before finally buying a Beechcraft B23.

squincher said:
Right now, I could go about $40K on a plane.
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You can still get a decent plane for that amount, but you'll likely need to broaden your scope beyond Pipers and Cessnas.

Piper low-wings and Cessna high-wings are the most common training aircraft at flight schools. Consequently, they're in demand by the schools and by recently licensed pilots. The prices on these planes has shot through the roof and is still climbing.

But those planes aren't the only game in town by any means. I was originally shopping for either a Grumman Traveler or a Piper Warrior, but their prices were rising and most planes I saw around the $40k point were in rough shape and needed quite a bit of work.

Over the summer I bought this plane: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/community/threads/1969-beech-musketeer-b23.128418/ . I flew it home the Friday before Labor Day and have been flying it regularly since. It's going to work fine to take trips with my wife, and in many ways I think it's a better plane than the Warriors I considered.

The baby Beechcrafts are often overlooked and can be a bargain. Good article here: https://www.flyingmag.com/story/aircraft/approachable-aircraft-beech-sundowner-musketeer/



squincher said:
Could I reasonably expect something at that price not to nickle and dime me
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No.

ALL planes will nickel and dime you, even if you bought something brand new. And BTW, we don't talk in terms of nickels and dimes; aviation costs are counted in AMUs, the "aviation monetary unit." 1 AMU = $1,000. Most of your expenses will be figured in AMUs, not nickels or dimes or dollars. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.


squincher said:
How foolish is it to think I could go out of state, say 500 - 1000 miles, to get a plane after my solo flight and count it as the cross country solo flight for my PPL?
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Very foolish.

As a freshly solo'd pilot with limited flying experience, picking up a plane that is unfamiliar to you and trying to ferry it for that distance while flying solo is a bit much. Could it be done? Sure. Could it turn into a disaster? Sure. Don't chance it.

Apart from that, you will find that researching planes, going to see and test fly them, making an offer and concluding a sale, going through a pre-buy inspection and possibly an annual, dealing with reparing squawks, finding a tie-down spot or a hangar, et cetera ad infinitum, requires quite a bit of time. Plane ownership has a steep learning curve all its own. Doing this while also learning to fly, another steep learning curve, is not recommended.

Also, until you've trained and flown for a while, you don't really know what sort of plane you'd like to have. So rent while training and then fly a few different rentals for a while after you have your ticket.
 
You should go with a Grumman. I am a little biased. Also, @SixPapaCharlie is just trying to convince himself that he made the right choice.
 
Another vote for rent for a while. Get your PPL, fly some and then get your IR (instrument rating). Yes, you an travel VFR, but not as easily. Some days VFR you would be stuck under a layer bumping around in warm air. IFR you could be up in the sunshine with smooth cool air.

After you've gone on several trips and found your wife doesn't hate it, then start looking to buy a plane. My wife wasn't sure at first as she's a little motion sensitive, but now she loves it. I took my first airline flight in over 2 years last month. We tend to fly in our plane.



Wayne
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
btw….does your wife fly in small airplanes….with you at the controls?
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Thanks again for the replies.

It turns out my wife does have some hesitancy about flying in small aircraft. I showed her some crash investigation videos and emergency landings to demonstrate planes rarely just fall out of the sky due to circumstances beyond the pilot's control and that it is possible to land safely even without an engine, which may not have been a great idea in retrospect.

The crash investigation videos brought up a question for me. In instances when IFR pilots crash in IMC without any instrument malfunctions, is it likely a case of the pilot not trusting their instruments or is there really any way to know?
 
squincher said:
It turns out my wife does have some hesitancy about flying in small aircraft. I showed her some crash investigation videos...
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OK, stop doing that.

For not much money at all, you can have her take a Discovery Flight with an instructor. Lots of flight schools offer them. She'll get a little time in a light plane, and actually fly it except during the take-off and landing phases. It will give her at least an initial sense of how comfortable she is in a small plane.
 
squincher said:
The crash investigation videos brought up a question for me. In instances when IFR pilots crash in IMC without any instrument malfunctions, is it likely a case of the pilot not trusting their instruments or is there really any way to know?
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It's mostly impossible to know all the factors that led up to the crash with the IFR pilots in IMC and no known instrument malfunctions. Typically it ends with "pilot error" being listed as the cause, but you never really learn what errors those were. You can search on these forums for accident threads, one usually pops up after every accident and people discuss what they think happened and factors that may have been a part of the cause. I find those threads pretty good reading in that I can see a lot of thoughts that I have put in the back of my mind to help on a bad day. There seems to always be something I take away from one of those threads.
 
squincher said:
Right now, I could go about $40K on a plane
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I have a nice 1974 Beech B-19 Sport I may sell for $30K or so. Owned it since 1996, lots of spare parts. Slow, comfortable, dependable, doors both sides, O-320, 1200 SMOH. PM me if interested.
 
squincher said:
Thanks again for the replies.

It turns out my wife does have some hesitancy about flying in small aircraft. I showed her some crash investigation videos and emergency landings to demonstrate planes rarely just fall out of the sky due to circumstances beyond the pilot's control and that it is possible to land safely even without an engine, which may not have been a great idea in retrospect.

The crash investigation videos brought up a question for me. In instances when IFR pilots crash in IMC without any instrument malfunctions, is it likely a case of the pilot not trusting their instruments or is there really any way to know?
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The problem with asking someone if she would fly with you now, is that (for most people) they are considering the negatives without ever having experienced the positives.

Once you have your PPL and a couple lunch runs under you belt (take pictures of the fun to show her), she may be open to giving it a try. But if not, you may have to work at it a little more.

This is what I like about the Cirrus, for all of the plane and companies flaws they have done a very effective job of marketing the idea that it's safer because it has a chute. Rent to get your PPL, rent a bit more after that to get comfortable (and take a few solo trips, taking lots of pictures, tell her stories that end with "the only way it could have been better if you were there with me" or similar). Take someone else as a passenger (to gauge your comfort with passengers), then (ideally) find an LSA with a chute to rent, show her some BRS propaganda and see if that can convince her to fly out with you to lunch at a local airport restaurant. If that goes well, fly her to a weekend away, then build from there, addressing her concerns as she is more comfortable with the idea of flying.
 
schmookeeg said:
Is a fear of GA flying irrational? Our safety record is a dumpster fire.
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Eh. If you keep proficient at landing and just avoid the obvious dumb mistakes the record changes dramatically.
 
AKBill said:
I have a nice 1974 Beech B-19 Sport I may sell for $30K or so. Owned it since 1996, lots of spare parts. Slow, comfortable, dependable, doors both sides, O-320, 1200 SMOH. PM me if interested.
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There you go! This is the second airplane I have seen in the last few days that fits within your budget.

squincher said:
The crash investigation videos brought up a question for me. In instances when IFR pilots crash in IMC without any instrument malfunctions, is it likely a case of the pilot not trusting their instruments or is there really any way to know?
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There is really no way to know for sure. I think most likely things include: 1) Pushing the limits and getting into icing conditions; 2) Doing a VFR flight and inadvertently fling into IMC (even instrument rated pilots can crash when they do this); 3) Being too rusty; 4) Not studying the approach plates closely enough, especially in the mountains, and thus doing something so they wind up hitting something hard; and 5) getting distracted, especially during critical phases of flight (for example, an airliner crashed in Florida a few years ago when one of the landing gear position light indicator bulbs burned out and the entire crew got distracted). Most instrument pilots, at least this one, know you can get in serious trouble by not trusting what the gages are saying.

And I agree with others here -- stop showing your wife the crash videos! :)
 
WDD said:
Eh. If you keep proficient at landing and just avoid the obvious dumb mistakes the record changes dramatically.
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Yes, it's rational to fly with myself because I do those things. Passengers and spouses have no signals to draw upon except the jangly shininess of the pilot watch :D
 
Convincing your wife to fly with you by discussing crashes is like trying to talk a girl into dating you by pointing out about the low number of times you’ve been dumped and how infrequent it is that you stick your date with the check.

I’m guessing you’re not in sales or marketing? :)
 
A 2 seat aircraft will be entirely unsuitable for travel for 2. BTDT in a AA-1A. You will have room for fuel or luggage, choose one. A 4-seat aircraft will be a minimum. Even a basic 4-seater will be a very long 1200 mile trip. Trips that length are more of an adventure than practical travel. The sweet spot for a basic (let's say 115-135kt) 4-place single is around 300-600 nm. The most I've done in a day is about 900 nm, and that's 3 legs with reserves. Better than driving, for sure, but still a long day. A good IFR aircraft will be well north of $40k. For example, a good IFR equipped Tiger or Cheetah is going to be probably $60k+.
 
WDD said:
Convincing your wife to fly with you by discussing crashes is like trying to talk a girl into dating you by pointing out about the low number of times you’ve been dumped and how infrequent it is that you stick your date with the check.

I’m guessing you’re not in sales or marketing? :)
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That's exactly how I got her in the first place. No, I don't have much marketing game.
 
I disagree with some of the posters.

To me, "renting" to pay for someone else's airplane note hardly seems reasonable. A pilot's license easily costs $10k. 50-100 hours is a drop in the bucket for an airplane close to or at TBO, and you won't lose that much in equity by time of sale - chances are you'll make money.

Cessna 172's are expensive now because pilots are scarce, and that's a premier training airplane for purpose. Piper Cherokee's are not as inflated in this market. 150's and 152's are non starters.

As others have said, talking to the wife about accidents is probably not the best way to go.
 
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