Buying a Plane... mid-overhaul, 0 SMOH

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Paul Rotramel

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Have a lead on a plane that seems like the perfect plane except it's in the middle of an extensive field overhaul (just needs a top end). Shop is experienced, but small, and IA (who is the owner) requests a down payment to finish the work, which seems fair to me. I'm just concerned about buying a plane with a newly overhauled engine that's not currently airworthy.

What do you guys think? Is it worth doing the pre-buy to see if the plane is as clean and pristine as it sounds? Not worth the trouble? First airplane- need the one I purchase to be a winner. What would you do? Thanks!
 
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Does this field overhaul come with a warranty? Will he take an offer without the overhaul? If it comes with a warranty of some sort or you can come to a legal agreement then I wouldn't have a problem. I would personally rather buy it at a discount and source the engine work my self.
 
steingar said:
Waitaminit, the owner requires the OP to pay him (the owner) before he (the owner) will fix his own gorram airplane! Run Forest, run!
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Yeah, something is a bit odd about that. Unless the owner has run out of $$.
 
Kenny Phillips said:
Yeah, something is a bit odd about that. Unless the owner has run out of $$.
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Yeah, I've been in that situation a long time ago, too broke to even sell something. Locked up the crank bearing on my KTM 450, couldn't afford to fix it so I could sell it. It would suck tremendously for that to happen with an airplane engine!
 
Paul Rotramel said:
it's in the middle of an extensive field overhaul (just needs a top end).
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FYI: Don't be confused with the word "overhaul." You are not getting an "overhaul" rather it's a repair, "field" or otherwise. A component is either completely overhauled per the OEM manuals or it's not. If you need a reference... Part 43.2. Whether the engine work is an issue that would be an item for discussion with your mechanic during a pre-buy.
 
Always get a pre-buy... preferably not from the shop you're already talking to.
 
there's a lot of alarm bells going off in my head where this could turn into a poop show for you. I don't know why he wouldn't fix his own plane and then sell it, you, as the buyer should either be able to buy it as is and get whoever you choose to fix it post purchase, OR he should fix it and then sell it for a "fixed" price (you'd still want to prebuy inspect the plane).

If he can't manage to get details organized to have the engine running when selling and has it half disassembled, you might be working your way into years of hassle and headache to get this thing in your possession and airworthy. it is such an amazing deal that it's worth all that risk?
 
Imagine this evil scenario:
-buyer agrees to put deposit on overhaul
-sale agreement signed, deposit deposited
-mechanic (seller) issues final invoice for repairs to buyer, or adjusts final sale price
-repair invoice or purchase cost adjustment is disputed by buyer due to whatever
-buyer wants to walk away
-seller says bye
-buyer wants “his” new plane or $ back
-seller files a mechanic’s lien on his own plane to keep it
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
Imagine this evil scenario:
-buyer agrees to put deposit on overhaul
-sale agreement signed, deposit deposited
-mechanic (seller) issues final invoice for repairs to buyer, or adjusts final sale price
-repair invoice or purchase cost adjustment is disputed by buyer due to whatever
-buyer wants to walk away
-seller says bye
-buyer wants “his” new plane or $ back
-seller files a mechanic’s lien on his own plane to keep it
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Or way easier.

"buyer" gives mechanic some money.

"buyer" wonders 4 years from now why he doesn't have a plane but his mechanic still does.
 
MIFlyer said:
Or way easier.

"buyer" gives mechanic some money.

"buyer" wonders 4 years from now why he doesn't have a plane but his mechanic still does.
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You’re not twisted enough, lol. Ruin the fun why doncha?
 
There's something goofy here. Sure, a refundable deposit to buy the plane is normal. But if you're hearing that he can't finish the overhaul without using the deposit money you better be 100% certain you're going through with the purchase 'cause he won't have your deposit to return anytime soon when the deal falls apart.

Use caution on this one.
 
Scenario. Plane is worth $20k if airworthy. Repairs will cost $5k. Buy it for $15k, if you feel a deposit for the work is fair, after the sale, pay the deposit and get the work done.
 
Count me In the “something sounds fishy, I would walk away” camp.
 
And Cherokees aren't exactly rare. There has to be one out here that fits the bill without this sort of nonsense.
 
I bought my current plane in this situation a few years back. It was priced as if it had no engine. All turned out well, and I got it the way I wanted it since I was paying the bills.
 
Extensive field overhaul and just needs a top does not compute.
 
Lots of questions:
  • Why does it need a top overhaul? (What other potential problems are lurking?)
  • Why is it necessary that you pay for the overhaul, to fix the engine to someone else's standards? (Sellers may not have high standards.)
  • Why not buy the aircraft for a discounted, acceptable price, AFTER you understand the need and scope of required engine repairs, and contract the engine work yourself, to YOUR standards?
The engine is the most important and valuable part of the airplane. Getting it done right is paramount to safety and useful longevity of the airplane. Anytime the case is open is an opportunity to evaluate the condition of the bottom end. A top overhaul on a high mid time bottom end may or may not be cost effective.
 
NordicDave said:
I bought my current plane in this situation a few years back. It was priced as if it had no engine. All turned out well, and I got it the way I wanted it since I was paying the bills.
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And there ya go. That’s a great example of people being able to find and work out deals.

This is the Internet and we pile on group think. It certainly is a risk to get into this by the sounds of it. But if you have what it takes, it can work.

@pigpenracing finds deals all the time and goes against the widespread thought and belief that you can never make money on a plane (maybe rare, but not for the right people making the right deals).

My plane was a little bit in that boat. A prior buyer walked and was afraid to buy it because of some pretty “taboo” issues, especially amongst us here at POA - #1 it had a lot of paperwork issues (all STC related that would take some desktop efforts to correct, but complete logs since new and no damage history), #2 it was located in Utah but spent a considerable part of its life on the Alabama coast (some visible corrosion of external steel parts, but internally EXTREMELY clean due to dedicated Corrosion-X treatments), #3 way under the 100hrs/yr that is supposed to be the “gold standard” of use, and #4 just needed some cosmetic TLC. I was willing to take a chance and the seller was willing to accommodate my requests because he knew the “stigmas” above. Worked out great.

With respect to the engine, it’s been 2.5 years and over 100hrs later (300 since overhaul), so I’m not out of the woods yet...after all it’s an a$rplane. But I’ll break even at worst if the engine craps out.

Safe money is to walk away. Nothing wrong with that.
 
I have a friend that buys this EXACT type AC. But he conducts the work himself (A&P) and gets the plane at a good enough price that even if something rears up later he has it covered. He buys mostly run-out AC with no corrosion or low corrosion. He has a trailer that he can perform ANY maintenance at the hangar the plane is sitting at ... in short, this is DEFINITELY not a plane you should be considering without those skills and tools
 
455 Bravo Uniform said:
And there ya go. That’s a great example of people being able to find and work out deals.

This is the Internet and we pile on group think. It certainly is a risk to get into this by the sounds of it. But if you have what it takes, it can work.

@pigpenracing finds deals all the time and goes against the widespread thought and belief that you can never make money on a plane (maybe rare, but not for the right people making the right deals).

My plane was a little bit in that boat. A prior buyer walked and was afraid to buy it because of some pretty “taboo” issues, especially amongst us here at POA - #1 it had a lot of paperwork issues (all STC related that would take some desktop efforts to correct, but complete logs since new and no damage history), #2 it was located in Utah but spent a considerable part of its life on the Alabama coast (some visible corrosion of external steel parts, but internally EXTREMELY clean due to dedicated Corrosion-X treatments), #3 way under the 100hrs/yr that is supposed to be the “gold standard” of use, and #4 just needed some cosmetic TLC. I was willing to take a chance and the seller was willing to accommodate my requests because he knew the “stigmas” above. Worked out great.

With respect to the engine, it’s been 2.5 years and over 100hrs later (300 since overhaul), so I’m not out of the woods yet...after all it’s an a$rplane. But I’ll break even at worst if the engine craps out.

Safe money is to walk away. Nothing wrong with that.
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I agree, and I'm the guy who would usually be looking at an angle like this, but the original poster doesn't know a top vs major OH, so probably is out of his depth on this one.
 
The guy obviously has some level of cash flow issues. I would be calling/asking around about the shops reputation. In this case it is at least as important as the prebuy inspection.
 
If the seller doesn’t have the money to fix his plane, he probably doesn’t have money to pay his rent, mortgage, line, bookie, etc. With a prepayment he now has to decide what bills to pay. Do you trust he will choose your interest in lieu of the roof over his head?
 
MBDiagMan said:
The guy obviously has some level of cash flow issues. I would be calling/asking around about the shops reputation. In this case it is at least as important as the prebuy inspection.
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I would not waste my time. Move on next one.
 
If the engine is already out, walk. Otherwise, you don't have to use that shop, just price the plane like it needs a new engine, then pre-buy with someone who knows the model. The seller is either cheap, has cash issues or is trying to find an uniformed or gullible buyer.
 
It’s concerning that he had you convinced this would be a SMOH engine when a top OH is not that. Sounds like he’s trying to play you.
 
Any chance that "in the middle of an extensive field overhaul (just needs top end)" means that the engine is in the middle of an extensive field overhaul with only the Top End left to finish?
 
lowtimer said:
Any chance that "in the middle of an extensive field overhaul (just needs top end)" means that the engine is in the middle of an extensive field overhaul with only the Top End left to finish?
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Even if it did, I’d still would not touch it.
 
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