Busted class B......

[Piper18O]

I talked to a pilot yesterday at a fly-in who told me about an incident that happened to him a number of years ago. He was flying VFR on an airway that was going to clip the edge of Class B airspace. He was receiving flight following and was talking to Tampa approach. He said he wasn't thinking about the upcoming class B and hadn't received a clearance through it when the controller told him to fly 10 degrees left for skydiver activity. He did so, and then later started thinking that he more than likely had clipped the Bravo and the controller let him off the hook by giving him the instructions that put him further into class B. Nothing ever became of the incident. The question I have is, did the instruction by the controller to turn 10 degrees left actually give him clearance into the Bravo even though he didn't hear the words "cleared into Bravo"? Thoughts?

 

[Sinistar]

Gotta hear the magic words is my understanding.

I've been on FF many times under the bravo and they've given both alt and course instructions. If I thought the instructions would result in bravo incursion I would speak up right away and/or descend to stay under if no response and it was practical.

 

[Piper18O]

That was my reaction. However, it does seem that he might have had a leg to stand on if pressed on it. I mean, the controllor's instruction was to fly 10 degrees left. That put him further into the Bravo. In a sense that seems like it could be construed as a clearance.

 

[Jmcmanna]

Approach controllers don’t have the class B map pulled up while they are working. If there is any doubt, “hey, that takes me into the bravo, am I cleared into the bravo?” Will clear up any confusion immediately. If a controller says “turn right heading 360 and maintain 3,500” and that takes you into the bravo, you are complying with an ATC instruction and you have a solid defense if someone tries to say that you were in the B without a clearance.

If you get a vector toward the B and no altitude restriction, I would plan to descend to stay outside of it until you get some clarification from ATC as to what they are expecting from you.

 

[midlifeflyer]

To me it a "how lucky do you feel today?" question.

1. The FAA is clear that specific words of clearance are required if you are VFR.
2. OTOH, there are situations in which it is likely that an assumption you were cleared into the Bravo is probably correct.

#2 has too many ifs and buts for my taste when it is so easy to say, "are we cleared into the Bravo?"

I don't like assumed clearances and "I can find support for the assumption if my incursion causes a loss of separation and the FAA begins and inquiry" an inadequate solution.

 

[AGLyme]

Glad this post came up, would a more efficient way of achieving Bravo approval be this readback:

"...turning 10 degrees left, entering Bravo, flyswatter 123XB"

and the Controller's silence be approval?

This same situation happened to me in New York, and Chicago during Flight Following. My direction and altitude were revealed and FF directed me around. I never heard the words "you are cleared for Bravo".

 

[chemgeek]

Glad this post came up, would a more efficient way of achieving Bravo approval be this readback:

"...turning 10 degrees left, entering Bravo, flyswatter 123XB"

and the Controller's silence be approval?

Nope. Gotta hear a clearance from ATC. You should inform ATC that accepting the vector will require Bravo clearance to proceed. Unless you are IFR, then you already have a clearance to fly your route and any ATC directions.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

you "should" get the magic words...."cleared into the bravo"....but, I've been cleared into airspace I've had no intention or flight plan into but told to go there....so I did. I fly from FDK east to the MD eastern shore about once a month in the summer to get crabs. I always go on the north side of BWI bravo around the SFRA airspace. Most times I get the words cleared into the Bravo yada...yada...yada. Often times I'm just given a squawk code and instructions. I follow them....then later follow up with "understand cleared into the bravo"...and get affirmative. I've also been cleared into one layer inside the bravo....into the SFRA....with no SFRA flight plan. It happens frequently....at ATC's discretion.

This weekend on the eastbound trip no SFRA...but a bravo clearance. On the return flight, got the cleared BWI, direct FDK....that path goes "thru" the SFRA. I've learned to do what they say....and not ask questions. I've also been given ...not requested while on flight following...the north route between IAD (Dulles) and DCA (Reagan National). That's an SFRA route along side the FRZ.

 

[PaulS]

You are supposed to hear "Cleared into the bravo" otherwise you are at the mercy of ATC.

 

[dbahn]

When he says the heading took him "further into the class B " it sounds to me as if he had already busted it, so it's hard to use the subsequent controller instruction as a defense.

I wonder how many class B's have skydiving activity, or was that for an event of some kind? (The only one I see depicted is Lakeland, but it's outside of the class B.)

 

[PaulS]

you "should" get the magic words...."cleared into the bravo"....but, I've been cleared into airspace I've had no intention or flight plan into but told to go there....so I did. I fly from FDK east to the MD eastern shore about once a month in the summer to get crabs. I always go on the north side of BWI bravo around the SFRA airspace. Most times I get the words cleared into the Bravo yada...yada...yada. Often times I'm just given a squawk code and instructions. I follow them....then later follow up with "understand cleared into the bravo"...and get affirmative. I've also been cleared into one layer inside the bravo....into the SFRA....with no SFRA flight plan. It happens frequently....at ATC's discretion.

This weekend on the eastbound trip no SFRA...but a bravo clearance. On the return flight, got the cleared BWI, direct FDK....that path goes "thru" the SFRA. I've learned to do what they say....and not ask questions.

Hey, I landed a FDK yesterday, nice airport. I filed IFR to BED from there and they routed me east to the coast and over JFK, another 20 minutes of flying, which isn't so bad, but I did that on the way down and got 2 full reroutes in the course of 5 minutes. Pain in the butt, so I flew vfr.

 

[Palmpilot]

That was my reaction. However, it does seem that he might have had a leg to stand on if pressed on it. I mean, the controllor's instruction was to fly 10 degrees left. That put him further into the Bravo. In a sense that seems like it could be construed as a clearance.

That is the current line of thinking and can be backed up with Chief Counsel letters. The main takeaway is that communication is not sufficient. But an instruction that will cause the aircraft to enter Class B implies (or even is) a clearance to do so.

The Chief Counsel letter on this subject does not support the idea of implied class B clearances.

"First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a
clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The
issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from
ATC to enter the subject airspace."​

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2010/Doremire - (2010) Legal Interpretation.pdf

[Edited to add:] As a practical matter, I doubt that you are going to get a violation if the instruction is issued by the controller who has jurisdiction over the class B airspace, but in line with Mark's suggestion, I think it's a gamble.

[Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.]

 

[midlifeflyer]

Glad this post came up, would a more efficient way of achieving Bravo approval be this readback:

"...turning 10 degrees left, entering Bravo, flyswatter 123XB"

and the Controller's silence be approval?

I personally want more than silence. My personal shorthand for that would be, "left 10 degrees. Confirm cleared into the Class Bravo."

I have always received a response. Some yes. Some no. A few were interesting.

But it's always nice to be able to honestly "yes" rather than "Ummm. I assumed so" when a later controller asks if you were cleared because he didn't expect you there (yes, that happened to me - expected when you fly a lot around Bravo airspace)

 

[FastEddieB]

The Chief Counsel letter on this subject does not support the idea of implied class B clearances...

Nice reference. Thanks.

It takes but a second to ask, “Verify <insert aircraft ID> is cleared into Bravo?”. If in doubt, ask!

 

[Salty]

If you can enter without the words “cleared into” then why does a regulation saying that you can’t exist in the first place? Oh wait, the reg doesn’t say that.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

My recent experience was last Tuesday, on a flight to MI. I had planned a route taking me outside of, around Bravo airspace. Toledo approach handed me off to Detroit, who ask me my heading. About a minute later he gave me a 340 heading, which in a few minutes would send me into the Bravo. I was about to ask if I was cleared, when he came back and cleared me into the Bravo. I was at FL65 and the floor in the area I traversed, was FL60.

This has usually been my experience, especially when ATC diverts you. And, there have been times I had to ask. In the end, its up to us as pilots when on FF to ensure we are cleared into B airspace.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

yup....it just depends. The rules are in ATC's favor...

 

[Palmpilot]

If you can enter without the words “cleared into” then why does a regulation saying that you can’t exist in the first place? Oh wait, the reg doesn’t say that.

True, and I think that causes confusion. 91.131 does not say that you have to hear those specific words. Instead, it says "an ATC clearance," which leaves open the possibility that some people will equate an instruction with a clearance. However, the Chief Counsel's office did not interpret it that way, so I guess we're stuck with that, under the deference doctrine.

91.131(a)(1):

"The operator must receive an ATC clearance from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area before operating an aircraft in that area."​

 

[dmspilot]

The Chief Counsel letter on this subject does not support the idea of implied class B clearances.

"First, you question whether the vector providing the heading and altitude assignment is a
clearance under § 91.131 (a)(l) to enter the Los Angeles Class B airspace. The answer is no.
A pilot must specifically receive an ATC clearance to enter the class B airspace. The
issuance of a vector provides navigation information but does not provide clearance from
ATC to enter the subject airspace."​

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/agc/practice_areas/regulations/interpretations/Data/interps/2010/Doremire - (2010) Legal Interpretation.pdf

[Edited to add:] As a practical matter, I doubt that you are going to get a violation if the instruction is issued by the controller who has jurisdiction over the class B airspace, but in line with Mark's suggestion, I think it's a gamble.

[Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.]

I don't know why I wrote that...must be thinking of something else and/or need to not post when I wake up in the middle of the night...

 

[FastEddieB]

Complicating thing, CFR 91.123 says, in part,

“(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.”

So, if it’s not an emergency, a pilot must comply with an ATC instruction that puts him in Class B without a clearance.

All the more reason to ask.

 

[Palmpilot]

I don't know why I wrote that...must be thinking of something else and/or need to not post when I wake up in the middle of the night...

That's OK; it gave me an opportunity to show off my collection of Chief Counsel bookmarks.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Complicating thing, CFR 91.123 says, in part,

“(b) Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.”

So, if it’s not an emergency, a pilot must comply with an ATC instruction that puts him in Class B without a clearance.

All the more reason to ask.

the exception to that is in class D....the class D at FDK does not have RADAR. I'd be very wary of any ATC traffic instructions given by a tower with no RADAR. Most won't know this....and follow their instructions blissfully. We've had fatalities with their bad instructions.

 

[Palmpilot]

the exception to that is in class D....the class D at FDK does not have RADAR. I'd be very wary of any ATC traffic instructions given by a tower with no RADAR. Most won't know this....and follow their instructions blissfully. We've had fatalities with their bad instructions.

I notice that the regulation specifies that a class B clearance must be "from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area...."

 

[midlifeflyer]

I don't know why I wrote that...must be thinking of something else and/or need to not post when I wake up in the middle of the night...

I don't have it handy, but I seem to recall one enforcement case involving some fairly specific circumstances, in which there was a de facto clearance. But it's one of those 20 cases against; one in favor where people treat the one in favor as the rule.

 

[PaulS]

It's most likely a case by case basis and depends on whether separation is lost or they have to turn AC in the bravo. I heard a guy get a brasher(?) number to dial after he was told to stay clear of the Boston bravo and busted it anyway. He wasn't having a good day.

 

[sarangan]

I talked to a pilot yesterday at a fly-in who told me about an incident that happened to him a number of years ago. He was flying VFR on an airway that was going to clip the edge of Class B airspace. He was receiving flight following and was talking to Tampa approach. He said he wasn't thinking about the upcoming class B and hadn't received a clearance through it when the controller told him to fly 10 degrees left for skydiver activity. He did so, and then later started thinking that he more than likely had clipped the Bravo and the controller let him off the hook by giving him the instructions that put him further into class B. Nothing ever became of the incident. The question I have is, did the instruction by the controller to turn 10 degrees left actually give him clearance into the Bravo even though he didn't hear the words "cleared into Bravo"? Thoughts?

I have come across some controllers who are a little loose on the class B clearance language. I recently overheard a controller say "maintain 3500 for transition through bravo airspace", and I was wondering if that meant to be a clearance.

 

[Clip4]

I have had many occasions where a controller was providing vectors including course and altitude that was taking me very close to entering the Bravo. Concerned the controller may become task saturated and forget me, I asked if I was Cleared into the B. More times than not, I am told No.

 

[PaulS]

Sometimes the controllers get it wrong. I heard of a guy who was on a checkride, flying an approach VFR. He was vectored into a bravo, again vfr not ifr, so he asked if he was cleared into the Bravo, the controller told him that he was talking to ATC so it wasn't necessary. The guy being tested and the DPE said that's not right, so the guy asked the controller to clear him in, which the controller did. I think the DPE called later and got it straightened out, you are supposed to be cleared in before you go in.

That said, I always try to talk to them when I'm flying. When I started flying again after a long hiatus I was a little apprehensive about talking to them. I was on a flight from Fitchburg to Norwood, I had planned the route around a restricted area close to Fitchburg but had a brain fart when I took off. I called for FF after take off, the guy gave me a squawk code, ID'd me then told me to turn 90 degrees to the right. I thought that was weird, but started turning, then he told me to expedite the turn I was 1/4 mile from the hot restricted area, I was going 120 knots. They really are helpful.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

If you are not sure, ask.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I have had many occasions where a controller was providing vectors including course and altitude that was taking me very close to entering the Bravo. Concerned the controller may become task saturated and forget me, I asked if I was Cleared into the B. More times than not, I am told No.

Those "no"s tell the story about how much we can rely on assumptions.

 

[EdFred]

I notice that the regulation specifies that a class B clearance must be "from the ATC facility having jurisdiction for that area...."

It says that, but I've been cleared direct 9D9 => SRQ which put me in not one, but two Class B airspace. I got my clearance from Grand Rapids Approach (now Great Lakes Approach) and they don't have jurisdiction over CVG or TPA. And that clearance from GRR did give me authority to enter the Bravo. So while the regulation says one thing, it's sort of a Vizzini/Montoya thing. "I do no' think it means what you think it means" (not you personally, just that the what the regs say don't always mean what the regs say.)

 

[midlifeflyer]

It says that, but I've been cleared direct 9D9 => SRQ which put me in not one, but two Class B airspace. I got my clearance from Grand Rapids Approach (now Great Lakes Approach) and they don't have jurisdiction over CVG or TPA. And that clearance from GRR did give me authority to enter the Bravo. So while the regulation says one thing, it's sort of a Vizzini/Montoya thing. "I do no' think it means what you think it means" (not you personally, just that the what the regs say don't always mean what the regs say.)

Facilities relay clearances all the time. Although I don't like assumed clearances, I would be royally surprised to hear a TRACON pulling a VFR clearance out of their hats without checking.

But yours is a bit weird. VFR clearances into Bravo airspace are traffic and workload based. The idea of Grand Rapids, MI clearing you VFR into the Tampa, FL Class B hours before you get there seems strange beyond comprehension.

 

[Tantalum]

The question I have is, did the instruction by the controller to turn 10 degrees left actually give him clearance into the Bravo even though he didn't hear the words "cleared into Bravo"?

Negative. Without hearing, 'cleared into the Bravo", you have not been cleared into the Bravo.

Never assume, he should have asked if he was cleared in the Bravo in that case.

 

[Palmpilot]

It says that, but I've been cleared direct 9D9 => SRQ which put me in not one, but two Class B airspace. I got my clearance from Grand Rapids Approach (now Great Lakes Approach) and they don't have jurisdiction over CVG or TPA. And that clearance from GRR did give me authority to enter the Bravo. So while the regulation says one thing, it's sort of a Vizzini/Montoya thing. "I do no' think it means what you think it means" (not you personally, just that the what the regs say don't always mean what the regs say.)

IFR or VFR?

 

[Shawn]

So, if it’s not an emergency, a pilot must comply with an ATC instruction that puts him in Class B without a clearance.

If an ATC instruction points you towards a mountain, do you also just fly into it to comply? It is still on the VFR pilot to be situationally aware.

Negative. Without hearing, 'cleared into the Bravo", you have not been cleared into the Bravo

As mentioned earlier it is an explicit clearance that is needed to enter Bravo and that "clearance" can come in forms other than that one single phrase, but yeah...an instruction is NOT a clearance.

 

[EdFred]

Facilities relay clearances all the time. Although I don't like assumed clearances, I would be royally surprised to hear a TRACON pulling a VFR clearance out of their hats without checking.

But yours is a bit weird. VFR clearances into Bravo airspace are traffic and workload based. The idea of Grand Rapids, MI clearing you VFR into the Tampa, FL Class B hours before you get there seems strange beyond comprehension.

IFR or VFR?

Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?

 

[Shawn]

Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?

You were conflating an IFR clearance and the regulations regarding a VFR clearance into Bravo which was unrelated and confusing...so there was that when "us guys" were trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about.

 

[luvflyin]

That was my reaction. However, it does seem that he might have had a leg to stand on if pressed on it. I mean, the controllor's instruction was to fly 10 degrees left. That put him further into the Bravo. In a sense that seems like it could be construed as a clearance.

He would have a leg to stand on. It doesn't need to be construed. It is a clearance. This has gone through the system before. The cat in the long black robe with the big wood hammer ruled so. Yes, they are supposed to say the magic words. They almost always do. That does not change the legality though. Not complying with the controllers instruction to turn 10 degrees left is another story

 

[Tantalum]

Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?

You were conflating an IFR clearance and the regulations regarding a VFR clearance into Bravo which was unrelated and confusing...so there was that when "us guys" were trying to figure out what the heck you were talking about.

Speaking of, I was flying with a guy once, IFR flight, and the guy nearly had an aneurysm that I wasn't confirming Bravo clearances when flying through them with apparent impunity.

 

[asicer]

Well, I started the post with "I've been cleared direct..." so I figured you guys would pick up that it's IFR since what other sort of clearance would I get when departing outside of and heading away from a class C?

Well there's been a couple times I've had controllers forget that I'm VFR and issued me IFR instructions.