Bust a TFR. Now what?

linuxjim

linuxjim

Pre-takeoff checklist
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JJ
I"m flying past Gary, IN this past weekend and there is an air show nearby. I'm aware of the TFR so I stay out of it by a few miles. They vector me a bit further. All is good. But then I see another single engine that flies right through the middle of it.

Tower: Aircraft 3 miles east of Gary you have entered a TFR.
Nothing
Tower: Aircraft 5 miles east of Gary, say your tail number.
Surprisingly, no response again.

So what happens now? Do they follow him on radar until they get his tail number or he lands? Do they just let it go? Seems that's a pretty big screw up.
 
Maybe nothing will happen.

If the aircraft's transponder was only mode C, or if it was off, then it's hard to say who it was. Assuming they didn't land at a nearby towered airport.
 
...or any airport. I'd gotten calls from the FAA/ATC/CBP asking if a plane landed at the airport I manage(d) and if so what were the tail numbers.
 
During a TRACON tour last week they talked about this. If they really want to go after him they will tag his transponder signal on their scopes and track him to destination and call the tower or FBO to get his tail #...but that takes a lot of coordination and tracking potentially across multiple sectors and even centers...so unless it created a serious problem, they may make an effort...or not...and sounds like a lot of times not.

In that case doubt there was much more than that radio call unless he landed at a towered airport within that controller's area.
 
If you knowingly and willingly bust a TFR, your best bet is to enter a spin, and while under 1000AGL recover the spin slowly, until under 400 or 500 feet and shut off the transponder at about 200 AGL, then low level fly it somewhere. They will think you crashed, and after you fly a hundred miles or so, go ahead and land.
 
I can give one possibility from personal experience: As a new private pilot many years ago, I was returning from a 200 nm trip (maybe my second "destination" flight, a weekend outing). Was departing a class C, and landing at an untowered field. After clearing the departure airspace and climbing up to 9500, I pointed myself directly to my destination, canceled radar services, squawked 1200, and flew on my merry way, knowing there was nothing I had to worry about between there and my destination.

As the trip progressed, some clouds started to build up, and I descended to stay below them. I had already entered the mindset of "just head home, nothing to worry about between here and there", and was a little tired from the trip, so inadvertently busted a class C (that my original plan was to be well above) about halfway through the route. When I landed (after hours), at my home base the airport manager had been called in from home, and told me that ATC had called and asked him to relay that they had a number to call for whoever had just landed at his airport.

I called the number (still not realizing my mistake), and was appropriately horrified at what I had done. The (appropriately stern) controller on the other end of the line said that I had gone right through their approach corridor. He said that had there been any planes landing at the time, they would have had to escalate the issue, but as I got lucky and they didn't have to move anybody else around, they would be satisfied with a promise that it would never happen again.

I learned a lot from that experience -- about planning, about being tired, about deviating from your plan without thinking it through, about the value of flight following, and about the virtues of 'fessing up. Still probably my biggest piloting mistake to date (knock on wood).
 
EdFred said:
, your best bet is to enter a spin, and while under 1000AGL recover the spin slowly, until under 400 or 500 feet and shut off the transponder at about 200 AGL, then low level fly it somewhere. They will think you crashed.
Click to expand...

Sounds like your best bet to actually crash for real.

I'd prefer to take my lumps with the TFR bust, and stay alive.
 
I know two pilots in one aircraft who busted a restricted area by accident.

They were intercepted by a Blackhawk that was there quick enough that they had to have been already airborne and vectored on to them, and they followed instructions and landed at the next available airport.

After explaining to the Blackhawk crew how it had happened and shooting the breeze for a while, they said "have a nice day" and left. One of the pilots had a similar job role and background to most of the folks in the Blackhawk, and the other had a father who did. Their conversation mostly centered around that, while they waited...

Because obviously by how long it took, both of them were probably run through some database and are now flagged in it.

Happened well after 9/11 but many years ago from today.
 
Was departing a local airport ,and climbed into class B just shy of the outer ring. They where slow that day and tracked me to the next controled airspace. Got a lecture from the controller. Lesson learned.
 
A few weeks ago I passed over Ann Arbor's airspace (Mi), except my transponder showed 1200 feet lower than I was. About the time I was passing over Flint's airspace I noted the transponder lights were flickering so I shut it down. In the landing pattern at Saginaw's county airport I had ATC jump on the frequency (122.8) and ask my tail number. I told him. He said I busted multiple controlled airspace. I said I had not and I had two other pilots in the plane who will back me up.
So after a few phone calls all is good again.
I liked it when one righteously said, "We tracked you to Harry Browne after you shut off your mode c."
I replied that it couldn't have been that hard having done a cruise descent while holding a steady course from 5500 agl for over 30 miles.
 
It really depends on what the TFR is, and what kind of disruption is caused.

Bust a VIP TFR, and you WILL get a talking-to, possibly involving armed aircraft and a threat to kill you if you don't comply. Last time the President was here, there was a fleet of at least four V-22s flying around. It's at least rumored that some sort of certificate action is very likely. Superbowl 50 was similar. Bust a fire TFR, and it depends if you interfered or not. The few times I've operated (legally) inside them, activity was not uniform all over the TFR, but rather was concentrated in a few areas. I'd certainly expect a phone call regardless.
 
mcmanigle said:
After clearing the departure airspace and climbing up to 9500, I pointed myself directly to my destination, canceled radar services, squawked 1200, and flew on my merry way, knowing there was nothing I had to worry about between there and my destination.
Click to expand...

I'm curious why you would cancel radar services. They've already got you on radar, you have an extra set of eyes helping you spot traffic and if you had any type of emergency, you'd already be talking to them and they'd know exactly where you are. It's like canceling a free insurance policy. I realize this happened in the past, but even so, did your CFI not encourage you to get FF on all your XC flights?

In this case, of course, it would've also had the effect of meeting the communication requirements of dealing with Class C.
 
I've found I use FF less and less (almost never) when VFR, though on longer trips, I am usually IFR. Sometimes it's nice to not hear the noise, and avoid the rare, but occasional, controller that takes FF to the "clearance" level.
 
Sundancer said:
I've found I use FF less and less (almost never) when VFR, though on longer trips, I am usually IFR. Sometimes it's nice to not hear the noise, and avoid the rare, but occasional, controller that takes FF to the "clearance" level.
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I used to think that flight following was "noise" too, but seems like these days in my area, no one is flying anyway. We flew 200 miles this past beautiful VFR-with-no-wind Sunday, and had FF the whole way, and didn't get one single traffic advisory. I kept checking the radio was working by pulling the squelch!
 
There was a guy a few years back that busted a TFR when Obama came to town. He was enroute to south GA and flew right through the TFR. ATC tried multiple times to get his attention but no response. I'm sure he was closely watched as he passed through each sector. It was said he would likely get his ticket suspended or even revoked once the FAA got a hold of him.
 
Ryanb said:
There was a guy a few years back that busted a TFR when Obama came to town. He was enroute to south GA and flew right through the TFR. ATC tried multiple times to get his attention but no response. I'm sure he was closely watched as he passed through each sector. It was said he would likely get his ticket suspended or even revoked once the FAA got a hold of him.
Click to expand...

I knew that guy. I was actually in the middle of giving him transition training to a Bonanza when he did that.

Nobody heard from him for a while, but a year or so after I saw him flying again.
 
EdFred said:
If you knowingly and willingly bust a TFR, your best bet is to enter a spin, and while under 1000AGL recover the spin slowly, until under 400 or 500 feet and shut off the transponder at about 200 AGL, then low level fly it somewhere. They will think you crashed, and after you fly a hundred miles or so, go ahead and land.
Click to expand...

A modified version of that is not a bad course of action. I'd turn off the transponder while diving down to about 500 feet or so. Then move laterally out of the area until you are clear.

This won't work with a POTUS TFR, but for some stupid airshow TFR sure it will work they don't care enough to try to track you. I've done this when busting bravo before. Knowingly but not willingly. It's not like I decide to go and bust bravo.
 
linuxjim said:
So what happens now? Do they follow him on radar until they get his tail number or he lands? Do they just let it go? Seems that's a pretty big screw up.
Click to expand...

In my area (the border), chances are pretty good someone is going to come along shortly in something MUCH faster than you fly and offer you directions to a nearby field whether you want them or not.:confused:

I have 121.5 on all the time during XC flights and have heard some real interesting intercepts. Usually ATC or approach tries raising the AC on radio and after three attempts they get intercepted. Last one I heard was on a return trip from California to El Paso that occurred just south of Tucson AZ.
 
coma24 said:
I'm curious why you would cancel radar services. They've already got you on radar, you have an extra set of eyes helping you spot traffic and if you had any type of emergency, you'd already be talking to them and they'd know exactly where you are. It's like canceling a free insurance policy. I realize this happened in the past, but even so, did your CFI not encourage you to get FF on all your XC flights?
Click to expand...

Sundancer said:
I've found I use FF less and less (almost never) when VFR, though on longer trips, I am usually IFR. Sometimes it's nice to not hear the noise, and avoid the rare, but occasional, controller that takes FF to the "clearance" level.
Click to expand...

This was my logic initially -- I learned to fly up in the middle of nowhere, and had a CFI who was pretty 50/50 on flight following (probably because we were in the middle of nowhere) though he did recommend it for XCs. I would use it for most XCs, but occasionally didn't want be listening for handoffs while chatting with my passengers, wanted some peace and quiet, etc.

Nowadays, having flown extensively in the DC SFRA and FRZ and completed the instrument rating, radio work doesn't really feel like added workload anymore, and after this and a few other (less "oops") experiences, I've come to appreciate the value of flight following more, and will use it on almost every VFR flight. (Being based at a friendly class C now, I'll even keep a squawk code for local maneuvering flights or T&Gs at a nearby field if they're not too busy.)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I knew that guy. I was actually in the middle of giving him transition training to a Bonanza when he did that.

Nobody heard from him for a while, but a year or so after I saw him flying again.
Click to expand...

Really? I assume the FAA must have just given him a swift kick in the end and sent him on his way. The media always blasts these things out of proportion. Glad he's flying again.
 
KFD said:
A modified version of that is not a bad course of action. I'd turn off the transponder while diving down to about 500 feet or so. Then move laterally out of the area until you are clear.

This won't work with a POTUS TFR, but for some stupid airshow TFR sure it will work they don't care enough to try to track you. I've done this when busting bravo before. Knowingly but not willingly. It's not like I decide to go and bust bravo.
Click to expand...

Well played on the avatar! lol
 
Ryanb said:
Really? I assume the FAA must have just given him a swift kick in the end and sent him on his way. The media always blasts these things out of proportion. Glad he's flying again.
Click to expand...

I don't know the story of what happened after they got hold of him, but the violation certainly was serious since he landed in the middle of a TFR and then took back off again (after being told to stay on the ground). As I recall, he's a lawyer, which likely helped. However, goes to show that you can survive a TFR bust.

He was a nice guy, I enjoyed instructing him.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I don't know the story of what happened after they got hold of him, but the violation certainly was serious since he landed in the middle of a TFR and then took back off again (after being told to stay on the ground). As I recall, he's a lawyer, which likely helped. However, goes to show that you can survive a TFR bust.

He was a nice guy, I enjoyed instructing him.
Click to expand...

It had to be pretty serious, I'm surprised they didn't revoke it. Did you ever fly with him after it happened?
 
Ryanb said:
It had to be pretty serious, I'm surprised they didn't revoke it. Did you ever fly with him after it happened?
Click to expand...

I didn't fly or speak with him after it happened. Not that I was avoiding him, but he didn't call me and I moved to Ohio a few months later, probably well before the legal aspects settled. The Bonanza I was transitioning him into was going to be a rental, so my guess is he decided to stop that pursuit.
 
Ryanb said:
It had to be pretty serious, I'm surprised they didn't revoke it. Did you ever fly with him after it happened?
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Maybe they did revoke it. They can be earned back by taking the written and practical tests again. In a year, that's easily doable.

But I'd suspect it got suspended, maybe with a 44709 ride.
 
MAKG1 said:
In a year, that's easily doable.

But I'd suspect it got suspended, maybe with a 44709 ride.
Click to expand...
Thats true. Either way, I'm sure he was sweating it.
 
mcmanigle said:
This was my logic initially -- I learned to fly up in the middle of nowhere, and had a CFI who was pretty 50/50 on flight following (probably because we were in the middle of nowhere) though he did recommend it for XCs. I would use it for most XCs, but occasionally didn't want be listening for handoffs while chatting with my passengers, wanted some peace and quiet, etc.

Nowadays, having flown extensively in the DC SFRA and FRZ and completed the instrument rating, radio work doesn't really feel like added workload anymore, and after this and a few other (less "oops") experiences, I've come to appreciate the value of flight following more, and will use it on almost every VFR flight. (Being based at a friendly class C now, I'll even keep a squawk code for local maneuvering flights or T&Gs at a nearby field if they're not too busy.)
Click to expand...
Oddly enough, I'm also based in the FRZ - Each to his own, I guess. It's not the workload so much as it can be annoying. IFR, I don't mind so much, probably because it's clearly necessary. But sometimes I just want to fly; turn, climb, whatever. . .sometimes you get an ATC experience on FF that might as well be IFR. I cancelled FF a few times, then gradually just stopped using it VFR.
 
On the TFR topic, with courteous explanations and filing of a NASA form often all is good in the world again. Case in point.
Friend of mine happened to turn the corner in the Hudson River that faced West Point while flying back from Florida. Typically wouldn't have been an issue but it was a weekend and their stadium abuts the river.... And a game-day TFR covers the river and then some. Not much of a sports fan.
It probably didn't help that he was on the deck and a Coast Guard Cutter was stationed in the river for the event, and the crew looked down with a little surprise at this airplane flying by.
Didn't take long for a police helicopter to request via the frequency that they land at an airport just to the north and have a "chat".

On the flight following topic, it's not a bad thing to use as an additional flight tracker besides the "going to KXYZ for an ice cream" flight notification you left your wife or friend, in case you didn't come home. Not much sense to use it unless you're truly going someplace though, or have limited landing options between origin and destination.

Pb
 
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I guess if you fly in less congested airspace FF is less of a help, but there are so many planes in the SoCal sky that I feel pretty naked without it. Add to that the complex airspace that gets simplified to simple "don't bust bravo or restricted" and it makes life a whole lot easier, though conversation with passengers does get a little harder.

As for the TFR bust, or really any kind of oopsie, having the right attitude when you make the call goes a long way. Being humble, apologetic and showing an open, safety conscious attitude tends to diffuse the situation and help get you a talking to rather than anything more serious.
 
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