Building a Hangar

[birdus]

My wife and I recently moved from Tacoma to Moses Lake (western WA to central WA). Why? Well, Tacoma is becoming a complete ****hole, but just as important, Moses Lake Municipal Airport (W20) has lots! So, I'm planning on leasing a lot and building a hangar. Yippee! Anyhoo, just wanted to tap into the hive mind.

I'll have to see what will fit on the lot, but I'm hoping for a 60' x 80' hangar. The lease will be commercial, so I would be able to rent out some space or do anything else aviation related to help defray costs.

Here are my thoughts on size and design:

• stick built, but with the typical metal sheeting on the exterior
• interior covered in sheetrock
• fiberglass insulation in the walls
  
• insulation blown into the ceiling
• about 20' of the length (leaving about 60' x 60' for planes) would contain a wood shop (maybe 20' x 30'), a paint room (primarily for furniture finishing), a full bathroom with shower, and an office
• there would be 110V outlets all over with a couple 220V (compressor, table saw, etc.)
• radiant heating in the floor
• geothermal (heat exchanger?) for heating and cooling (I want to spend a lot of time in it, so I want it cool in the summer [90s] and warm in the winter [20s])
• bi-fold door maybe 50' x 14' (Diamond Doors sound good, but I thought about welding them up myself, too)

Those are the high points. I'm sure I'll have a heart attack when I get a quote, so none of this will matter, but at least we can have fun talking about it in the mean time. Please let me know all your brilliant thoughts!

 

[Racerx]

One of my favorite past times is spending other people's money.

As far as insulation is concerned, after building my own house and remodeling another... insulation is secondary to air leakage. Closed cell foam is great because it does both. I'm building a new industrial building and we're going to go with IMP's. Insulated metal panels. Overkill for a t-hangar. But your building a commercial building that just so happens to have a plane inside.

 

[Albany Tom]

Well if you're going to have a table saw, and make furniture, you want at least a jointer and a planer. But while you're at it, you should add a small mill and a metal lathe. Because airplanes are metal. But in all seriousness, I don't know how healthy it would be to have all that iron tooling in a place that isn't climate controlled and is in the pacific northwest. You're in one of the few places that is just about as wet as here. In the summer, you could dehumidify without A/C...but I can't imagine dehumidifying an aircraft hanger, and I dehumidifying doesn't work well in the winter in my experience.

Now, if you can afford to climate control the whole thing? Go for it.

And I defer to people with more experience than me in keeping iron tools in a shop non-rusty in a humid 4 season climate.

 

[birdus]

One of my favorite past times is spending other people's money.

As far as insulation is concerned, after building my own house and remodeling another... insulation is secondary to air leakage. Closed cell foam is great because it does both. I'm building a new industrial building and we're going to go with IMP's. Insulated metal panels. Overkill for a t-hangar. But your building a commercial building that just so happens to have a plane inside.

What's the cost of spraying foam compared to fiberglass? Would you use the same thing in the ceiling? The only thing I've seen in the ceiling (as far as spraying) is ground up newspaper (I think). Sounds like the IMPs would be the most expensive.

 

[birdus]

Well if you're going to have a table saw, and make furniture, you want at least a jointer and a planer. But while you're at it, you should add a small mill and a metal lathe. Because airplanes are metal. But in all seriousness, I don't know how healthy it would be to have all that iron tooling in a place that isn't climate controlled and is in the pacific northwest. You're in one of the few places that is just about as wet as here. In the summer, you could dehumidify without A/C...but I can't imagine dehumidifying an aircraft hanger, and I dehumidifying doesn't work well in the winter in my experience.

Now, if you can afford to climate control the whole thing? Go for it.

And I defer to people with more experience than me in keeping iron tools in a shop non-rusty in a humid 4 season climate.

Moses Lake is east of the Cascades. It's pretty dry over here, as most of the moisture coming in off the Pacific falls in the mountains before it gets to this side. Something more exciting is that it rains heavily with thunder over here, which I love. Thankfully, though, it's much less humid here in the Pacific Northwest than on the east coast, even on the west side.

 

[Racerx]

What's the cost of spraying foam compared to fiberglass? Would you use the same thing in the ceiling? The only thing I've seen in the ceiling (as far as spraying) is ground up newspaper (I think). Sounds like the IMPs would be the most expensive.

IMP's are the most expensive. But you get insulation and siding all in one. They even make them for the roof if you really wanted to go nuts. Plus a smooth interior wall...aside from seeing the structural steel. I'm a welder/fabricator and the giant fiberglass batts would get tore up right fast dead quick in a hurry. So my views are biased towards what suits me in my industrial application. IMP's can have an embossed texture that really look nice. As far as spray foam, there's closed cell and open cell. Open cell is significantly cheaper than closed cell, but you don't get the air sealing qualities and the r value is only slightly better than fiberglass and still a bit more expensive. The ground up newspaper is cellulose. And there's a few different ways it's used in residential construction. Loose fill is typically seen in attic spaces. Then wet spray where they add water and spray it into the wall cavity (this is what I did on my house). Then dense pack where they put a netting over studs, blow cellulose into the stud bays until it's bulging at the seams and roll it flat. Great at air sealing, but negligible difference r value wise.

When you say stick built I'm assuming we're talking steel with exposed fastener exterior. I'm not well versed in that style as personally I think it's dated as far as building science is concerned. Not sure if cellulose or even foam would even be an option with condensation being a real concern. Would not be my choice of construction for a climate controlled shop. Hell, I've got enough problems keeping critters out of the hangar let alone air/water.

As a welder/fabricator...as tempting as it would be to build your own doors, I probably wouldn't. Granted I have absolutely no idea what they go for. But there's a lot of engineering that someone has had to figure out one way or another. If someone manufactures it, chances are they can make it cheaper than I can do it as a one off.

 

[birdus]

IMP's are the most expensive. But you get insulation and siding all in one. They even make them for the roof if you really wanted to go nuts. Plus a smooth interior wall...aside from seeing the structural steel. I'm a welder/fabricator and the giant fiberglass batts would get tore up right fast dead quick in a hurry. So my views are biased towards what suits me in my industrial application. IMP's can have an embossed texture that really look nice. As far as spray foam, there's closed cell and open cell. Open cell is significantly cheaper than closed cell, but you don't get the air sealing qualities and the r value is only slightly better than fiberglass and still a bit more expensive. The ground up newspaper is cellulose. And there's a few different ways it's used in residential construction. Loose fill is typically seen in attic spaces. Then wet spray where they add water and spray it into the wall cavity (this is what I did on my house). Then dense pack where they put a netting over studs, blow cellulose into the stud bays until it's bulging at the seams and roll it flat. Great at air sealing, but negligible difference r value wise.

When you say stick built I'm assuming we're talking steel with exposed fastener exterior. I'm not well versed in that style as personally I think it's dated as far as building science is concerned. Not sure if cellulose or even foam would even be an option with condensation being a real concern. Would not be my choice of construction for a climate controlled shop. Hell, I've got enough problems keeping critters out of the hangar let alone air/water.

As a welder/fabricator...as tempting as it would be to build your own doors, I probably wouldn't. Granted I have absolutely no idea what they go for. But there's a lot of engineering that someone has had to figure out one way or another. If someone manufactures it, chances are they can make it cheaper than I can do it as a one off.

Thanks for all the great info. At least I'll have a clue what the contractors are talking about when I tell them what I want when getting bids.

When I say "stick built," I actually mean built with sticks. As in wood. As in 2x4s or 2x6s. Things I can screw cabinets and other stuff to...and that the contractor could screw sheetrock to.

 

[aftCG]

Funny, I'm still in Tacoma and my uncle is in Ephrata. He's been attempting to build a hangar for five years. The permits and county BS (had to move an imaginary lot line 8') took the first 4. The building is about 60x40. Stick built, insulated metal sheeting, no utilities of any kind. So far about $160k
Still waiting on the roll up (rv size) door, repairs to the large doors which were left unsecured in high winds, the apron to the ramp and final inspection.

No way on earth would I build a hangar on dirt I don't own.

 

[Racerx]

And I defer to people with more experience than me in keeping iron tools in a shop non-rusty in a humid 4 season climate.

Leave them oily or spray a corrosion inhibitor if they're not often used. Probably not a good idea to be spraying oils next to soon to be finished wood however.

 

[birdus]

Funny, I'm still in Tacoma and my uncle is in Ephrata. He's been attempting to build a hangar for five years. The permits and county BS (had to move an imaginary lot line 8') took the first 4. The building is about 60x40. Stick built, insulated metal sheeting, no utilities of any kind. So far about $160k
Still waiting on the roll up (rv size) door, repairs to the large doors which were left unsecured in high winds, the apron to the ramp and final inspection.
View attachment 108575
No way on earth would I build a hangar on dirt I don't own.

$160K for that and 5 years scares me. That's nuts. Also, I'm learning that small towns aren't necessarily run by sane or good people. It's a shame.

My understanding is that it's standard for people to own hangars on land they lease from the city/county. I suspect the only exception is if you buy a huge tract of land.

 

[Randomskylane]

Woodworking creates lots of dust so don’t forget the vacuum system attached to each station (planer tablesaw etc)

I was recently at airport where they used an insulated fabric/fiber sheet (German company maybe) as the door. Apparently not up to code in some areas (because the airport guidelines were written 70 years ago) - same possible issue with exterior walls

Good luck

 

[Racerx]

Thanks for all the great info. At least I'll have a clue what the contractors are talking about when I tell them what I want when getting bids.

When I say "stick built," I actually mean built with sticks. As in wood. As in 2x4s or 2x6s. Things I can screw cabinets and other stuff to...and that the contractor could screw sheetrock to.

I'd probably go wet spray cellulose in wall cavity. The one advantage to this over batts, aside from a better r value is a good installer will be able to spray around conduit better than cutting and notching batts. Will it matter in a shop like this? Probably not. But the cost was pretty insignificant compared to batts. Least in my area.

 

[Racerx]

Also, I'm learning that small towns aren't necessarily run by sane or good people. It's a shame.

Or competent.

 

[birdus]

Woodworking creates lots of dust so don’t forget the vacuum system attached to each station (planer tablesaw etc)

Precisely why I want the woodshop in its own enclosed space. I may not have been clear in stating that. That would be part of the 20-foot chunk at the end. Woodworking room, paint room, bathroom, and office--all separate rooms at one end of the hangar.

 

[Rich Holt]

Well, Tacoma is becoming a complete ****hole

You said becoming...Ha.

Wait a sec there bub, that's an All-American City you're talking about.

#TacomaAroma

Good luck with the hangar, I am very interested in how it turns out as my little town's big airport refuses to repair the hangars it already has. Maybe they will allow me to build one.

 

[Flocker]

The lease will be commercial, so I would be able to rent out some space or do anything else aviation related to help defray costs.

Feel free to PM/give me a call if you need any advice on the Real Estate part of this. I specialize in all aspects of Aviation Real Estate.

 

[flyingron]

My hangar is stick built but I have stucco on the outside. I've got most of the rest of the stuff you mention including the geothermal. What are you going to use as a source? I've got some 300+ foot wells for mine.

In my case the workshop has the dust collector and the air compressor (shared with the hangar) out in the hangar. Keeps the noise down and saves space in the smallish shop.

Note that Washington State has adopted the 2020 NEC. All 120 AND 240 receptacles need GFCI protection (the latter will have to be a GFCI breaker). Note that Type NM cable (ROMEX) is not permitted in this construction. You're going to need armored cable or conduit.

I've been happy with my Scwheiss Door for the past 12 years.

 

[aftCG]

$160K for that and 5 years scares me. That's nuts. Also, I'm learning that small towns aren't necessarily run by sane or good people. It's a shame.

My understanding is that it's standard for people to own hangars on land they lease from the city/county. I suspect the only exception is if you buy a huge tract of land.

A lot of it was the county, and you're in the same one. I think the original quote was for $125k but then COVID, soaring lumber costs, and labor issues and here we are. Rather than requote the job the contract just says there may be adjustments from each of the subcontractors - and big surprise, the have been. Don't get me wrong most have been really good people and very quick.

It may be "standard" to build on leased land but there are significant down sides. No bank will carry paper on the structure (because no dirt) so you have enough money to buy a plane tied up in a big box.

Also, the ground lease has a clock running. In this case I think they gave us 30 years with two extensions to get to 40 years. After that you or your heirs hand over the keys.
So for several years it is an asset you can sell or lease out but towards the end you don't have anything to sell. The county owned hangars in Tacoma were all acquired this way, including the one I'm in. The good news is that I'm pretty sure my monthly rent isn't much more than the "owners" of the condo hangars at the south end pay for lease, property tax and HOA fees.

But you're right about the weather and lack of crazy going on. I'm about done on this side of the mountains myself.

 

[birdus]

Looks like conditions at Moses Lake Municipal Airport have become such that I would be able to get a bank loan for the hangar:

https://columbiabasinherald.com/news/2021/feb/25/ml-airport-set-big-future-growth/

 

[Racerx]

Looks like conditions at Moses Lake Municipal Airport have become such that I would be able to get a bank loan for the hangar:

https://columbiabasinherald.com/news/2021/feb/25/ml-airport-set-big-future-growth/

Having a mayor tied into the airport...I think a lot of us are envious.

 

[midwestpa24]

I don't know the area, so I don't know the level of oversight there, but I know one of the hang-ups we encounter here is building code. Sometimes that stipulates the type and amount of sheetrock for firewall protection, etc. Better to get ahead of that than let a building inspector hold things up.

 

[aftCG]

I don't know the area, so I don't know the level of oversight there, but I know one of the hang-ups we encounter here is building code. Sometimes that stipulates the type and amount of sheetrock for firewall protection, etc. Better to get ahead of that than let a building inspector hold things up.

Oh it does. Fire codes were part of the hold up. The previous manager of EPH wanted the hangar moved closer to an existing row of T hangars. Since they were built before the current fire codes he wanted my uncle's hangar to have a double thickness firewall. Then for good measure he wanted the back wall to have doubled thickness, you know "in case someone wants to build one back there"
There's a new manager now who let us move it where we wanted it.
Three was also weird "new" codes applied to the post holes, the type of rebar and foam frost barrier as part of the slab

Awesome that you can get a bank to carry the paper. That does improve the math a bit

 

[Clip4]

Radiant heat in the hangar floor.

 

[Sinistar]

Why not go with a hydraulic door instead of bifold? Seems way easier to insulate and in the summer when open it provides more shade out onto the apron.

I wish our hangar door had windows way up high all the way across for natural light.

A guy here didn't even insulate the walls, but did spray foam every possible air leak. So the stud walls are not filled completely with foam either. Covered walls in 5/8" rock to meet fire code. R50 in the ceiling sitting on top of metal panels. When its -30F outside his hangar is so damned warm. And he doesn't use nearly as much propane as I would have imagined. But he also kept the ceiling low (12ft vs 14ft) which helped a-lot.

One thing he wishes he did and we are going to change on ours is to have a access door that has a blank openable side. So basically a 30"+36" or 36" +36". Normal use means just opening the primary 36" door. But when it comes time to snow blow or get out a 4-wheeler or golf cart you don't need to open the big door (more important here where is really cold).

Don't skimp on LED lighting - use way more than you think you will need.

 

[flyingron]

I like my bifold. It gives a bit of overhang but doesn't require me to clear much space on the ramp to open it.

We have clerestory windows around the top of the hangar which give plenty of natural light.

I'm glad we insulated the walls and roof and the inside of the hangar door. It makes a world of difference compared to the adjacent garage which is not.

I've got the same fluorescent tubes in my ceiling I put in when I built the thing 14 years ago. I figured when they die, I'll swap in LEDs. The one thing I did change out were the cheapo builder grade fans with BigAss fans. We're heated (radiant floor) but not airconditioned.

I also have an I-Beam running down the middle of the building for structural reasons. The builder was going to box it in but I told him to leave it exposed. I put a chain hoist trolley on it (well at one end there's stage lights hanging off it but that's another story). The hoist has been handy for a couple of things: Pulling engines out of boats, setting up the dust collector/cyclone, putting together the four post car lift.

Here's a shot of the front with the windows:

 

[Einstein376]

When I replaced the old by-pass sliding doors on the hangar, I chose a bi-fold door. The amount of snow here in Michigan was one factor as I can open the door without clearing the snow in front of it first. Another factor was the loading factor of a solid door vs. the bi-fold and the transfer of the load to the hangar framing. To save the cost of putting steel up to support the load, the bi-fold was a clear decision. Hi-Fold was great to work with and designed and delivered the door in a very timely manner.

Jim

 

[midwestpa24]

When I replaced the old by-pass sliding doors on the hangar, I chose a bi-fold door. The amount of snow here in Michigan was one factor as I can open the door without clearing the snow in front of it first. Another factor was the loading factor of a solid door vs. the bi-fold and the transfer of the load to the hangar framing. To save the cost of putting steel up to support the load, the bi-fold was a clear decision. Hi-Fold was great to work with and designed and delivered the door in a very timely manner.

Jim

Most hydraulic and bi-fold doors still require additional support for the weight. The only one I know of that doesn't is Higher Power Hydraulic Doors (https://www.hpdoors.com/). Their design keeps all of the weight centered on the door columns itself, they even have a demo that is free standing, no building at all. We have a couple on our airport, and the owners seem quite satisfied.

 

[Sinistar]

Most hydraulic and bi-fold doors still additional support for the weight. The only one I know of that doesn't is Higher Power Hydraulic Doors (https://www.hpdoors.com/). Their design keeps all of the weight centered on the door columns itself, they even have a demo that is free standing, no building at all. We have a couple on our airport, and the owners seem quite satisfied.

The guy I mentioned used this type of hydraulic. No weight on tje building frame. As we get snow he heats the first 5 or 6 feet cement apron outside. Just punch the button, any slush gets gently pushed out and he's off.

 

[Sinistar]

I like my bifold. It gives a bit of overhang but doesn't require me to clear much space on the ramp to open it.

We have clerestory windows around the top of the hangar which give plenty of natural light.

I'm glad we insulated the walls and roof and the inside of the hangar door. It makes a world of difference compared to the adjacent garage which is not.

I've got the same fluorescent tubes in my ceiling I put in when I built the thing 14 years ago. I figured when they die, I'll swap in LEDs. The one thing I did change out were the cheapo builder grade fans with BigAss fans. We're heated (radiant floor) but not airconditioned.

I also have an I-Beam running down the middle of the building for structural reasons. The builder was going to box it in but I told him to leave it exposed. I put a chain hoist trolley on it (well at one end there's stage lights hanging off it but that's another story). The hoist has been handy for a couple of things: Pulling engines out of boats, setting up the dust collector/cyclone, putting together the four post car lift.

Here's a shot of the front with the windows:

Gorgeous!!! What state do you live in if its okay to ask.

 

[flyingron]

Gorgeous!!! What state do you live in if its okay to ask.

North Carolina.

 

[benyflyguy]

Most hydraulic and bi-fold doors still require additional support for the weight. The only one I know of that doesn't is Higher Power Hydraulic Doors (https://www.hpdoors.com/). Their design keeps all of the weight centered on the door columns itself, they even have a demo that is free standing, no building at all. We have a couple on our airport, and the owners seem quite satisfied.

We are currently building a hangar. We have a higher power door. A big one. Advantage of these is they open like. A conventional garage door. Can fit bigger tails and don’t have wasted space from pocket slide style doors.



Not quite done yet but getting close. Annoyingly close. door floats on two hydraulic rams that lift door a pivot point. It is amazing how fast this thing is up and down. Faster than the hi-fold on the smaller hangar a third the size.

 

[birdus]

I'm reconsidering door and ceiling height. Any reason to go higher than 12 feet? A Cessna Caravan wouldn't fit, but most GA planes would easily fit (8 or 9 feet high). I'm planning on leasing out room for 2 or 3 other planes, but those will almost certainly be planes like a 172, 182, Mooney, Bonanza, etc. I'd save money on materials and the door, and it would be easier and cheaper to heat and cool. It's obviously a decision I can't change my mind on later, though, so I want to make the right one.

 

[TCABM]

I'm reconsidering door and ceiling height. Any reason to go higher than 12 feet...

If the airport allows RVs to be stored in hangars, I’d make sure my door have 14+’ vertical clearance.

 

[kyleb]

I'm reconsidering door and ceiling height. Any reason to go higher than 12 feet? A Cessna Caravan wouldn't fit, but most GA planes would easily fit (8 or 9 feet high). I'm planning on leasing out room for 2 or 3 other planes, but those will almost certainly be planes like a 172, 182, Mooney, Bonanza, etc. I'd save money on materials and the door, and it would be easier and cheaper to heat and cool. It's obviously a decision I can't change my mind on later, though, so I want to make the right one.

Consider the long term. If your situation changes in 10 years, you'll open yourself up to much more lucrative offers if the hangar will accommodate the light turbine fleet like Citations, King Airs, etc. I've got a friend who gets a great rental deal on a very nice hangar that would deliver 2x the rent if it was a couple of feet taller.

On the other hand, if you never foresee your airport "going corporate", there's no need for this approach.

 

[TomF]

Another option to consider would be to build the walls higher and keep the door shorter. Then a bigger door could be added in the future if needed to get the capacity while saving some cost now.