Budget panel upgrade

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samiamPA

Pre-takeoff checklist
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samiamPA
In my new to me Cessna 150, I would like to finally complete the instrument rating that I started years ago. Let me be clear that I have no interest in flying in IFR conditions in a 150; I just want to become a better pilot.

To that end, the plane I bought has a single Nav/Com (TKM MX-300) with VOR/LOC. It has a transponder but no ADS-B. So I thought I could add a Skybeacon and a second Nav/Com and be off to the races. But it's not so simple as I have discovered. Here are the options I see:

1. Add a second Nav/Com with GS. With indicator, the new cost for this would be $5k for parts alone. I looked at some used units on ebay; even there it would be about $2.5k for an old radio like a KX-155 with indicator. Plus then I would need an audio panel and installation. This simple second Nav/Com could easily run $5k+ with used radios. Plus I would still have to budget another $2k for ADS-b.

2. Add a KNS-80. Yes, the finest tech the 90's has to offer. But with a DME, GS, and RNAV capability it would certainly expand the training. The cost is great. The downside - no second com radio. I'm not sure how big of a downside this is if I'm not flying actual IFR. It looks like I could get the unit and indicator for under $2k, plus however much to install.

3. Garmin GNX 375. I know, it's crazy to consider in a 150. But it is $9.5k for the equipment plus installation. This would upgrade my old collins transponder, and would presumably add more value to the airplane than any of the other options.

Any other ideas you can think of? I'm currently leaning towards #2 because I think it might be the most economical for what I'm trying to accomplish, but if others have ideas I haven't thought of I'm open to it.
 
I wouldn't be hesitant to invest in C150 avionics. These planes have risen in value and now go for a premium with new avionics. I mentioned in another thread a god friend of mine received a record price his Warrior 140 with 150HP engine. The plane had a pair of G5's, SL30 radio, GI-106, and new nice 430 (non-WAAS), GTX-345. Panel was clean and new.

A Garmin 375 GPS/transponder would be well received.
 
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What about a GNX 175?

It will cost a little more than the KNS-80, but it will be much easier to work with and it will add value to the plane. If your transponder is in good shape and you already have ads-b, then there is no reason for the GNX-375.

Another option to consider logging hood time in your plane, renting for instruction and check ride.

My IFR plan is to get enough instruction in my plane (single nav/com, similar to yours) to allow productive hood time, finding the lightest safety pilot I can to fly hood time, and then checkride prep and the checkride in a rented 172.

My decision is ultimately based on the fact that I have never met a DPE thin enough to fly with me and 3 hours of fuel without going over gross. My little plane requires short legs and small passengers, I bought it for a mostly solo mission.
 
Stratus ESG for adsb-out which includes a new free transponder, and a Val avionics INS429 ... https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html ... That's about as budget as you're going to get. Or... Garmin gps175 + compatible cdi of your choice for a bit more money but better future proofing.
 
NordicDave said:
I would be hesitant to invest in C150 avionics. These planes have risen in value and now go for a premium with new avionics. I mentioned in another thread a god friend of mine received a record price his Warrior 140 with 150HP engine. The plane had a pair of G5's, SL30 radio, GI-106, and new nice 430 (non-WAAS), GTX-345. Panel was clean and new.

A Garmin 375 GPS/transponder would be well received.
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This is along the lines of what I was thinking... if I do a budget upgrade, I'm not going to get any value back on it. However, a 375 significantly increases the value of the airplane, even if it does seem like overkill.
 
MuseChaser said:
Stratus ESG for adsb-out which includes a new free transponder, and a Val avionics INS429 ... https://www.valavionics.com/ins-429.html ... That's about as budget as you're going to get. Or... Garmin gps175 + compatible cdi of your choice for a bit more money but better future proofing.
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This is the type of creative thinking I was looking for. I had never heard of this unit, but it looks like a straightforward installation and could add the capability I'm looking for.
 
samiamPA said:
3. Garmin GNX 375. I know, it's crazy to consider in a 150. But it is $9.5k for the equipment plus installation. This would upgrade my old collins transponder, and would presumably add more value to the airplane than any of the other options.
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This.

samiamPA said:
Any other ideas you can think of? I'm currently leaning towards #2 because I think it might be the most economical for what I'm trying to accomplish, but if others have ideas I haven't thought of I'm open to it.
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Why isn't "do nothing" an option?
 
Get a Garmin GTX 345 with WAAS. Then, tie your I Pad into the transponder to get your navigation along with traffic and weather, radio frequencies of approaching airports, traffic audio alerts, and all the other goodies that ForeFlight has to offer while in route.

Get a GTR 200 for a second nav / com.

As you said "Let me be clear that I have no interest in flying in IFR conditions in a 150; I just want to become a better pilot.", then the I Pad with should be more than adequate for VFR.
 
Why do you need a 2nd comm for an IFR trainer if you already have one with NAV VOR/LOC?
The Garmin 375 looks like it was tailor made for your situation. It would make your C150 a nice IFR training platform and, as you noted, probably add the most value to the plane.
 
Concur with the 375. ADSB in/out is a significant added safety feature.
 
samiamPA said:
Let me be clear that I have no interest in flying in IFR conditions in a 150; I just want to become a better pilot.
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How many hours do you need to rent an IR plane to get your ticket? Leave the plane you like alone and get your rating elsewhere.
 
My advise is you need adsb, really. Especially if you are safety conscious, and you should be. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used the traffic and weather, I couldn’t live without it now.
What I did recently and love it: garmin gps 175, used garmin cdi dedicated for gps, and recently had to add a garmin 225 com as my old Tkm went out. I have a narco nav/com that works well. The 175 is great and while the screen isn’t big, the touch screen user interface is light years better than 10 yr old tech, especially for ifr. I use my iPad mini for situational awareness, and can transfer flights to and from the 175 easily. You could get the one that has a built in com, used cdi, and add a sky beacon for adsb.
 
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GNX 375, hands down. You’ve already got a conventional nav/comm for VOR use, having ADS-B in and out is a fantastic tool, and for the enjoyment you’ll get using it and the resale value when you sell will be highest with the 375.

I wouldn’t install a KNS 80 at this time. The VOR network is slowly going away, and for the rest of the functionality you have it in the 375. There’s also no resale value when you sell. Yeah, the standard rule of thumb is you will loose half of what you invest in avionics, but right now there just isn’t any value in these old boxes. I have one myself, love it for what it is, but i only intend to get another year or two out of it before getting another GPS in its place. There would be no way I’d pay to install one now.

If you want another comm radio for a bit of backup security, I’d have your avionics guy install the antenna and run the cable to the panel to plug in a handheld unit. You’ll need the antenna anyways if you do add a second comm later but at least for now you can skip getting a panel radio and audio panel. If and when you do decide to install a second comm, I’d go for the PS Engineering PAR200B comm/audio panel combo.

Edit to add, you can get glideslope capability with an R-443B receiver, it works with your TKM though you may need to get a new indicator.
 
Barry said:
My advise is you need adsb, really. Especially if you are safety conscious, and you should be. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve used the traffic and weather, I couldn’t live without it now.
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If you mean what you wrote, stop flying. Really.
 
I only tried to express the safety value that I believe the information that adsb-in provides to me, at least. If that didn’t come through correctly, was not my intent to the OP.

And no I won’t stop flying. Really.
 
Thanks everyone for the thoughts. I'll have to think about this.

I'll be getting ADS be either way. This is part of why I'm asking opinions... I was just going to get a Uavionix unit but I might be better off putting that $2k towards a 375.

I saw the cost for a 375 package is $9.5k, which isn't bad, but I'm afraid of what the install cost would run. I guess I'll have to look into it.
 
I put a Garmin GPS 175 and CDI indicator in my PA28-140 last Fall to complete IFR training hopefully by years end. I had two radios, one with GS/VOR capabilities and other with VOR/localizer. They just couldn't cut it for training after renting a school's 430W and seeing how much more a WAAS radio could do. I love the GPS 175 and the 375 would make a great fit if you don't already have ADSB. I had already installed a Skybeacon and Garmin 327 transponder in Spring and had not anticipated I'd being installing a WAAS GPS at time, so I already had ADSB taken care of.

If your vacuum system is working well, skip the G5 or Uavionix systems for now. they are nice but the biggest bang for buck will be a GPS and CDI. I've flown my little 140 in actual IFR during training and found it quite capable if I pick my battles on the weather, I'm sure your C150 would be the same. There are much smaller framed people than some of us willing to pick up a fully equipped C150 as a PPL/IFR trainer if it were their only choice, not that many instructors prefer such a small plane to ride along in. But if it fits your mission, go for it.
 
Excuse me if I my message used the phrase 'WAAS Radio' instead of 'WAAS GPS Navigation System'. Even though technically the unit, a Garmin 430W I was referencing is a Radio with GPS WAAS navigation system. You already trolled Barry on what he said about how ADSB was a great increase to safety situation awareness and he should stop flying. Great input of the conversation. The more you cut down on people, the more you further general aviation.

I guess the rest of us here need your 'genius' intellect to help us out since you've done some much in this thread to help add some value. Thanks for your help.
 
Chris Ellington said:
Excuse me if I my message used the phrase 'WAAS Radio' instead of 'WAAS GPS Navigation System'. Even though technically the unit, a Garmin 430W I was referencing is a Radio with GPS WAAS navigation system. You already trolled Barry on what he said about how ADSB was a great increase to safety situation awareness and he should stop flying. Great input of the conversation. The more you cut down on people, the more you further general aviation.

I guess the rest of us here need your 'genius' intellect to help us out since you've done some much in this thread to help add some value. Thanks for your help.
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A bit on the acerbic side, but completely deserved... And accurate.
 
Sorry to have accurately pointed out your inaccuracy.

As to the ADSB comment - I'll stand by it. I've seen pilots (with whom I'll never fly again) who get traffic calls and look first to their iPad. One even replied "traffic in sight" before raising his eyes to the windows. I was in the right seat, actually had sighted the traffic, and even when he looked up he was looking in the wrong direction. Thanks lawmakers, we're all safe now.
 
Ravioli said:
Sorry to have accurately pointed out your inaccuracy.

As to the ADSB comment - I'll stand by it. I've seen pilots (with whom I'll never fly again) who get traffic calls and look first to their iPad. One even replied "traffic in sight" before raising his eyes to the windows. I was in the right seat, actually had sighted the traffic, and even when he looked up he was looking in the wrong direction. Thanks lawmakers, we're all safe now.
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Not to belabor the point, but maybe this'll be helpful. That's my intent anyway.

What bothered folks was not that you pointed out that the term WAAS did not apply to radios (even though we ALL knew what the person meant), but that you followed that up with "Fail.," followed by insinuations that the poster was ignorant regarding GPS equipment. Totally unnecessary, insulting, and unhelpful. In the post re adsb-in, you took the commonly used phrase, "I couldn't live without it," which we all know means nothing more than "I find great value in it," literally in order to excoriate and denigrate the person who made the statement, seemingly for your own pleasure. Again, uncalled for and unhelpful. If you don't find any use for adsb-in, that's fine, and feel free to say so. You are in the vast minority of pilots, but entitled to your opinion and I bear you no malice for that. You are correct that over-reliance and misuse of technology, both in an airplane, are problems for some people. Used properly, adsb-in is a tremendous tool. I could certainly live without it, but if I have a choice, I'd much rather live with it. Is that wording more acceptable?

Just trying to point out why your posts didn't sit well. There are ways of saying what you want to say that are not as insulting. Best to you.
 
Ravioli said:
Sorry to have accurately pointed out your inaccuracy.

As to the ADSB comment - I'll stand by it. I've seen pilots (with whom I'll never fly again) who get traffic calls and look first to their iPad. One even replied "traffic in sight" before raising his eyes to the windows. I was in the right seat, actually had sighted the traffic, and even when he looked up he was looking in the wrong direction. Thanks lawmakers, we're all safe now.
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The explosion in ADS-B in, either panel mount or using external receivers like a GDL or Stratus, has been directly correlated to a substantial decline in midair collisions and near misses.
 
IFR panel and ADSB out are two issues. You HAVE to do the ADSB if you want to fly IFR. You HAVE to do the ADSB if you want to fly anywhere there are people. IFR is different.

The KNS80 does give a LOT of functionality for little money, but the install is going to be horrific. Same for one of the newer Garmin panel mount jobs. I'd go for the bestest and newest, because the install cost will dwarf your acquisition costs. There is a limit to what anyone will pay for a Cessna 150.

I rather agree with the folks who say rent for the IFR or sell the 150 and buy something with the boxes you want. There really isn't a good answer to this, no matter what you get the install costs are going to be nuts, unless you do the install yourself. You'll get upside down quick on your 150. Not a good idea for an airplane you aren't likely to keep that long.
 
WDD said:
Get a Garmin GTX 345 with WAAS. Then, tie your I Pad into the transponder to get your navigation along with traffic and weather, radio frequencies of approaching airports, traffic audio alerts, and all the other goodies that ForeFlight has to offer while in route.

Get a GTR 200 for a second nav / com.

As you said "Let me be clear that I have no interest in flying in IFR conditions in a 150; I just want to become a better pilot.", then the I Pad with should be more than adequate for VFR.
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GTR 200 is not a nav/com its a com only radio
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Used GNS430 and used audio panel?
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putting a 430 in as a new install in anything is a waste of money. its about EOL, will not be serviceable in a couple of years and the cost is way to high for that old of a box. if your going with a IFR gps get a newer unit for a new install.
 
unsafervguy said:
putting a 430 in as a new install in anything is a waste of money. its about EOL, will not be serviceable in a couple of years and the cost is way to high for that old of a box. if your going with a IFR gps get a newer unit for a new install.
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All true. My thoughts were its a very powerful box and you can find them in the $3500 range on ebay. Yes support will end soon, but the radio isn't going to turn into a pumpkin and die the day support goes away. And the OP has stated having no interest in flying this C150 IFR. If/when that changes and the OP or someone else decides they do want to use the plane IFR, you can buy an Avidyne 440 and slide it into the 430 tray and Bob's your uncle.
 
unsafervguy said:
putting a 430 in as a new install in anything is a waste of money.
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If there's a W at the end of that the support will be around for more than a couple years. The non-WAAS GNS support is already over with. Can't upgrade them anymore. But as @Juliet Hotel mentioned, the box doesn't know it is unsupported and will soldier on for a while. Are KX-155's still under support? I don't know, but I do know I've seen them working.

JH is also correct that the answer for many 430W owners is that if/when it goes tits up there will be used Avidyne 440s to slide in.

My point on all this? If you want full feature without full cost, the GNS series is still viable.YMMV
 
Juliet Hotel said:
Used GNS430 and used audio panel?
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putting a 430 in as a new install in anything is a waste of money. its about EOL, will not be serviceable in a couple of years and the cost is way to high for that old of a box. if your going with a IFR gps get a newer unit for a new install.
Ravioli said:
If there's a W at the end of that the support will be around for more than a couple years. The non-WAAS GNS support is already over with. 't upgrade them anymore. But as @Juliet Hotel mentioned, the box doesn't know it is unsupported and will soldier on for a while. Are KX-155's still under support? I don't know, but I do know I've seen them working.

JH is also correct that the answer for many 430W owners is that if/when it goes tits up there will be used Avidyne 440s to slide in.

My point on all this? If you want full feature without full cost, the GNS series is still viable.YMMV
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so you are willing to spend 5 or 6 grand on a box that may be un-repairable in a year from now? A lot of components in that box have not been made in years. the biggest one is the screen. when the supply of those is gone its game over. I have been told that day is coming sooner not later.
650's are only about 3k more and have a lot longer service life. yes, a avidyne slides in, but i would be really ****ed at myshelf if spent 6k on a 430 and had the thing die in a year of so and have garmin say sorry and have to pay another 8k to buy a avidyne.

as to the KX155 they are getting very long in the tooth and try to buy a display for them. I have two sitting on the shelf that are no longer worth fixing.
 
yes but you need to factor in the instillation when it dies and you are spending 5 or 6 k to install a newer unit that you could have put in now for a few k more.
 
unsafervguy said:
as to the KX155 they are getting very long in the tooth and try to buy a display for them. I have two sitting on the shelf that are no longer worth fixing.
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Off topic, but what's wrong with them? What do you plan to do with them?
 
unsafervguy said:
putting a 430 in as a new install in anything is a waste of money. its about EOL, will not be serviceable in a couple of years and the cost is way to high for that old of a box. if your going with a IFR gps get a newer unit for a new install.
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From the OP:
Let me be clear that I have no interest in flying in IFR conditions in a 150; I just want to become a better pilot.
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There is a big difference between being able to do something and being able to do it legally. Why spend the $$$$ to make the /G legal when you have no intention of ever flying it /G in the system? All the OP needs is a GPS will allow practice IFR ops. Why invest almost as much as the plane is probably worth as it sits now to make it capable of doing something you have no intention of ever doing?

IMHO a used 430 is a decent way of doing that. Sure it could go sideways on you in a year thus cost you more money to fix or replace. It could also go another 10 years without a hiccup. Same could be said for the 100ll burning noisemaker of the front of the plane.


so you are willing to spend 5 or 6 grand on a box that may be un-repairable in a year from now?
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So you're willing to invest 3/4 the current value of the plane which you will likely never recoup at resale to make it capable of doing something you have no intention of ever doing?

A lot of components in that box have not been made in years. the biggest one is the screen. when the supply of those is gone its game over.
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One of the advantages of a unit no longer being supported is the little sticker on edge of the case cover that says warranty void if removed is now meaningless. There are a metric sh*t ton of 430's in the wild. What's to stop me from buying a broken one, stealing the screen out of it and putting that screen in mine to get it working again?
 
Juliet Hotel said:
From the OP:
There is a big difference between being able to do something and being able to do it legally. Why spend the $$$$ to make the /G legal when you have no intention of ever flying it /G in the system? All the OP needs is a GPS will allow practice IFR ops. Why invest almost as much as the plane is probably worth as it sits now to make it capable of doing something you have no intention of ever doing?

IMHO a used 430 is a decent way of doing that. Sure it could go sideways on you in a year thus cost you more money to fix or replace. It could also go another 10 years without a hiccup. Same could be said for the 100ll burning noisemaker of the front of the plane.


So you're willing to invest 3/4 the current value of the plane which you will likely never recoup at resale to make it capable of doing something you have no intention of ever doing?

One of the advantages of a unit no longer being supported is the little sticker on edge of the case cover that says warranty void if removed is now meaningless. There are a metric sh*t ton of 430's in the wild. What's to stop me from buying a broken one, stealing the screen out of it and putting that screen in mine to get it working again?
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other than than its illegal unless you hold a FCC license to work on a radio and a FAA repair station ticket.
 
asicer said:
Off topic, but what's wrong with them? What do you plan to do with them?
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one the power supply has gone bad and the other the TX section is not working. both have good displays so i am keeping them to support the one I do have when that display goes bad, as they are not available anymore.
 
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