Brokers...why are most of them so ignorant!

Aaron H

Aaron H

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Aaron
Sorry, but I have to vent.

I know I'm stereotyping and want to apologise for the brokers that are good at there job.

Maybe it's just my bad luck, but I have dealt with 6 brokers in about 6 months and i would only deal with 1 again. By "dealt with" I mean just calling to get information on planes they have listed for sale.

I just talked with #6. I asked if I could come see the plane and if he would take me around the pattern. He said "u can come see the plane but you can't fly it unless it's under contract. There are no free rides here". I told him I'm not going to buy a plane without flying it first. He said "good luck" and hung up.

Is it me?
Am I asking to much?

Most of them don't respond and when they do, they don't give me the info I ask for.

What's the deal????
 
I wouldn't buy a plane without a flight, either. It is common to offer to pay for some gas, though (not free).
 
Here is an excerpt from a post on Beechtalk...by a broker that people seem to respect (I have never dealt with him).

The aircraft brokerage business is an unregulated enterprise... and its like the Wild West in my opinion. There are solid and honest people out there selling airplanes but in my experience, they are the exception and not the rule. The fiduciary relationship in any brokerage agreement lies between the broker and the seller, not the buyer. He or she is the innocent bystander in these transactions and sometimes ends up as collateral damage.

Never ever EVER make the assumption that the person representing the airplane to you is your consultant, that they will advise you prudently, that they will help educate you, that they are an expert and know what they are talking about (no matter how long they've been in business), that they are knowledgeable about the market for the particular airplane you are seeking to purchase or that they are going to be forthright and share information with you openly and honestly.
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I don't think the brokers refusal to give free rides in his clients plane is unreasonable.

I do believe that brokers unwilling to show a plane without a contract in hand are unreasonable.
 
After some previous experiences (much like what you've had), a situation would have to be particularly unique for me to even consider buying an airplane from a broker. Many are simply incompetent, which I don't deal well with.
 
I had one plane I was sort of looking at, but the pictures in the on-line listing were very tiny, so I emailed the broker, he sent me photos... the exact same tiny photos. I moved on to other aircraft.
 
I will point out, that I have not asked for a test flight until I was pretty sure I was very interested in the plane. That includes a full log book review. I wouldn't agree to go under contract, though, before a test flight. I guess you could write the contract with some outs, depending on what was found during the flight.
 
There are those out there, that will travel around and get test flights for the sole purpose of just seeing what that type of plane is like. No intention of buying that particular one, it was just close to home and easy access.
I don't do that, but will admit it's tempting. There is almost nothing within decent distance to rent other than the standard few trainers, so I'm out of options for the most part, and that does make it hard to take everyone's advice when they say "fly them all and buy the one you want".
Getting a ride in someone else's plane is great, and much appreciated, but even then it's nowhere near like getting a few hours actually flying something.

So I can understand the brokers saying they don't just give rides to anyone, and can also understand not wanting to sign a contract without flying the plane.
For many of us, it's a waiting game to get any time in type.

but if this stock market doesn't turn around, fuggedaboutit. ;)
 
John221us said:
I wouldn't buy a plane without a flight, either. It is common to offer to pay for some gas, though (not free).
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I agree if I asked to fly far, however I specifically asked if he could fly me around the pattern. If you can't afford to fly a potential buyer around the pattern, you shouldn't be in the business (my opinion).

My time has been in an o-360 172 and this one was a o-300 172. Wanted to see how much different the motor are.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Here is an excerpt from a post on Beechtalk...by a broker that people seem to respect (I have never dealt with him).
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Nicely put.
I do understand and agree that a brokers job is to please the seller and not the buyer, but in order to do that the broker should be civil towards the buyer or he/sheshe w never please seller
 
Aaron H said:
Nicely put.
I do understand and agree that a brokers job is to please the seller and not the buyer, but in order to do that the broker should be civil towards the buyer or he/sheshe w never please seller
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“Should” is an amazing word, isn’t it? ;)
 
weilke said:
I don't think the brokers refusal to give free rides in his clients plane is unreasonable.

I do believe that brokers unwilling to show a plane without a contract in hand are unreasonable.
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Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
 
Aaron H said:
I asked if I could come see the plane and if he would take me around the pattern.
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From a seller's/broker's point of view, this sounds like someone who is still deciding what kind of airplane to buy.
"I've never flown a Boggs Mk VI, so I'll ask a broker to let me try it out".

Most people ready to buy ask to see the logbooks first. "I know all about Cessna 182s, maybe this is the right one."
Detailed pictures and a thorough look at the logs will eliminate quite a few airplanes without costing any money.
Usually, one of the later steps is to fly the airplane to insure there are no surprises. Most buyers will know the airplane pretty well before asking for a test flight.

Brokers try to weed out tire-kickers before wasting too much time. Some make stupid assumptions and think almost every phone call is a tire-kicker looking for a free ride.
Some brokers are just lousy.

If you've had only bad experiences when calling brokers, perhaps analyze how you come across to them. Maybe change how you phrase things so you come across as one ready to buy.
"I'm deciding between a Skyhawk and a Beech King Air. Can I fly the King Air you have listed?" - BAD!
"I have the finances lined up to purchase a Cessna 182. The one you are advertising looks like it fits my needs" -Better
 
Aaron H said:
Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
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You can make your contract contingent on a satisfactory test flight as well as a satisfactory prebuy inspection.

I don't blame anyone for not offering a flight before a contract is made and accepted. Too many tire kickers and people with no real interest in buying, but they will take a free ride if offered.
 
Non Compos Mentis said:
From a seller's/broker's point of view, this sounds like someone who is still deciding what kind of airplane to buy.
"I've never flown a Boggs Mk VI, so I'll ask a broker to let me try it out".

Most people ready to buy ask to see the logbooks first. "I know all about Cessna 182s, maybe this is the right one."
Detailed pictures and a thorough look at the logs will eliminate quite a few airplanes without costing any money.
Usually, one of the later steps is to fly the airplane to insure there are no surprises. Most buyers will know the airplane pretty well before asking for a test flight.

Brokers try to weed out tire-kickers before wasting too much time. Some make stupid assumptions and think almost every phone call is a tire-kicker looking for a free ride.
Some brokers are just lousy.

If you've had only bad experiences when calling brokers, perhaps analyze how you come across to them. Maybe change how you phrase things so you come across as one ready to buy.
"I'm deciding between a Skyhawk and a Beech King Air. Can I fly the King Air you have listed?" - BAD!
"I have the finances lined up to purchase a Cessna 182. The one you are advertising looks like it fits my needs" -Better
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Thanks for the different perspective.

My experience the last few months has been that it is hard to get brokers and owners to send pics of plane and harder for log book pics. So when this one showed up within 2 hrs drive, I texted him and asked for interior picks with no response. Then 2 days later (today) called him and asked to come look at it, look at log books and take me around the pattern. He was just so ignorant. I have 110hrs in a o-360 172 and 0 hrs in a o-300 172 and wanted to see how they compared.

This is the second one that I have asked to take me around the pattern in 8 months. The first one took me out in 2 different planes for a total of an hour. Never asked for a dime and never pressured about any contract.

Maybe I'm naive and people fly planes for sale all the time just for a flight?
 
The fact that you called and asked for a ride before having any real in depth conversations tipped the guy off that you were just wanting a ride. Even more so if you stated you wanted a 0-360 but wanted to see how an o-300 flew. With all that said, if you offered to pay for expenses like fuel, his time, and something towards maintenance and he still said no then that is a bit bullheaded.
 
Aaron H said:
Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
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The last two I flew days after the check cleared.

Look at the plane, review the logs. If you decide that it is for you, put a contract on the plane contingent on satisfactory completion of a test flight and pre-buy inspection by a mechanic of your choosing .
 
or go direct to a known broker or expert for particular make/models, that others easily refer to
 
Maybe you called the broker halfway through a bad-A burrito and you were stealing his zen moment...

I'd go look at it in person then if it seems like 'the one' start talking about seeing her run.
 
Grum.Man said:
The fact that you called and asked for a ride before having any real in depth conversations tipped the guy off that you were just wanting a ride. Even more so if you stated you wanted a 0-360 but wanted to see how an o-300 flew. With all that said, if you offered to pay for expenses like fuel, his time, and something towards maintenance and he still said no then that is a bit bullheaded.
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I never stated to him or this posting I wanted an o-360. He never asked anything, he just said no ride without contract. When i stated here about the motors, I was making the point that I wanted a 172 and just wanted to go around the pattern to see how much the different the motors where.

What would you recommend to offer for fuel, maintenance for a trip around the pattern?

I know how a Cessna flys I just wanted to see the climb with 15 hp less.
 
bradg33 said:
After some previous experiences (much like what you've had), a situation would have to be particularly unique for me to even consider buying an airplane from a broker. Many are simply incompetent, which I don't deal well with.
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Agreed!
I think I'm going to take that same outlook from here on out.
 
Aaron H said:
I never stated to him or this posting I wanted an o-360. He never asked anything, he just said no ride without contract. When i stated here about the motors, I was making the point that I wanted a 172 and just wanted to go around the pattern to see how much the different the motors where.

What would you recommend to offer for fuel, maintenance for a trip around the pattern?

I know how a Cessna flys I just wanted to see the climb with 15 hp less.
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Going rate for a 172 rental around here is $150.00 per hour. So divide that but how ever long you are up.
 
This link is from a sellers prospective but is a good outline of how the deal should go. The test flight is the final step in the process

https://www.slideshare.net/mobile/planeviz/how-to-sell-your-airplane

Having sold two plane, I can tell you dealing with all the potential “buyers” is not fun. 99% of the calls are from people that had no idea what type plane they want, had no funds, were bored and want to talk airplanes and tell their life story or were looking for a free ride in an airplane type they never flown. All a total waste of my time & money. I get mad just thinking about it :D

Figure out exactly what you want before you go shopping and the process will go a lot smoother.
 
Aaron H said:
Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
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Of the four airplanes I've personally owned, I only flew one of them before negotiating a deal. Another one was wrecked, and I never even saw that airplane before I owned it much less flew it. The other two I flew after signing paperwork to transfer ownership.

A friend of mine has numerous airplanes sight unseen and without a test flight from several states away as well as halfway across the globe.

It seems to just be part of the game in this industry. People don't often "test drive" airplanes the same way people test drive new and used cars.

Based on your post history it appears there is some indecisiveness on what to buy. That uncertainty could be for any number of reasons but the broker might have sensed that and figured you're just out kicking tires and looking for a ride. Before proceeding further I'd recommend getting an idea on what kind of airplane you really want and pursue that type. Also, make sure your financial situation is in order and you have the money to buy what you're looking at. Probably 75% or more of the calls I've fielded while selling airplanes are dreamers that are on fire to buy whatever airplane I have for sale but don't have the cash available to do so.
 
The seller of my plane offered me a ride . . . . afger briefly discussing price and before mentioning the logs.

I'd never buy a plane or a car without a test drive / flight, and the actual performance is part of determining which make / model I want. Everyone's wants and likes are different, and only I can tell how well a particular vehicle meets mine.

No ride, no buy . . . . Contract first? Fu-geddabout it!
 
Free market

Sadly enough people are ok with that to where they get away with it.

I helped a buddy buy a plane from a broker, same kinda deal, so I hit him with a low ball offer, well below what we would have made a normal owner sale person, and we got the plane for a steal. Worked out well in the end.
 
Aaron H said:
Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
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I’ve bought/owned six planes, over the past 25 years, and I’ve never flown a single one before I bought them. I’ve sold five of the six, and all five buyers never even so much as asked for a flight before purchase. Just my experience but I think at this point, if I ever go to sell my current plane and someone asks me for a ride I’ll be suspicious.
 
I've got hours in 172s with 180 hp O-360s, 160 hp O-320s and 145 hp O-300s. They climb just as you'd expect, the more hp the better the rate of climb. The O-300, being a 6 cylinder motor, is a bunch smoother than the other two. But, it suffers in rate of climb, as expected. You pays your money and you takes your chances.
 
Every buyer and every seller is different, so I find this raft of generalizations interesting. That said, I'll off my perspective as buyer of 5 and seller of 4.

I agree with all the tire kicker comments that have come up. If someone is a serious buyer, asks serious questions, and truly seems like a buyer, then I have no problems if, well into the process, they say "ok, looks good, lets go fly it." But when the second sentence out of their mouth is "let's go fly and then we'll talk" the tire kicker alert goes off.

In my case, it was never about the cost of the gas or whatever, it was the hassle factor when I didn't gauge a payoff.
 
The broker that represented the plane I bought was great to work with. We did take the plane out for a brief test flight. He even picked me up at the airport to go see the plane. Plane was as represented and I transferred the funds and flew it home.
 
I'm on plane number #3....last one I sold was typical as other described the "tire kickers". Those that wanted rides....really weren't interested in the plane. Those that had serious questions...got rides later.

My current plane was purchased sight unseen on the coast across the country....In fact I'd never even had a ride in that make and model. But, I knew, on paper what was good. I called the prior A&P's that serviced her....and they remembered the plane. Gave it an honest assessment over the phone and pictures reflected the condition. Sew.....you pays your money....you's takes your chances. :D

Turned out to be a good plane....I've since painted her and given her a top OH.....all of which I knew going in what I had. No big surprises.

btw....the seller listed it thru a broker. He was no help but did set up the deal.
 
Aaron H said:
Have you entered into a contract without flying the plane first?
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You strike me as someone who has never purchased a plane before?

I have never flown a plane I was planning to buy before agreeing a conditional contract.

Unless it happens to be near some place I'm already going, I do a hell of a lot of review work on a plane, including logs, before I am ready to spend any time and money to go see it or fly it. Each time I've been in the market only about one plane in 10 candidates gets through my screening...and that's after I have already narrowed down which specific model I intend to buy. Part of that is qualifying the seller - weeding out those people with a plane for sale that do not really want to sell (surprising how many of those are out there).

The test flight is part of my pre-purchase due diligence. Usually done ferrying the plane to where I want the detailed pre-purchase inspection done by a knowledgeable mechanic.

Remember, you haven't "bought the plane" until all the contract conditions are satisfied and the deal is closed.

That's kinda how the process works. It's not the same as rolling up to a used car lot.

If you take the right approach you'll find the truly professional brokers will do everything reasonable to help you evaluate the plane.
 
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GRG55 said:
You strike me as someone who has never purchased a plane before...
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The OP strikes me as someone who has never bought or sold a plane before.

I like the buying process but selling can be a major P.I.T.A. My last plane I sold I made a habit of asking the potential buyer a couple of questions before I’d answer any of their questions just to weed out the time wasters.
 
Seems in the current market, if you see a plane that fits your criteria, budget, and is a good deal, you should probably put some sort of agreement in place pretty quick or it won't be around. Get the ride later.
Like the others have said, just leave yourself plenty of room to back out if it doesn't live up to expectations.

tawood said:
if I ever go to sell my current plane and someone asks me for a ride I’ll be suspicious.
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Says the detective ;)

I'll take a ride for sale or not :cheerswine:
 
tawood said:
The OP strikes me as someone who has never bought or sold a plane before.

I like the buying process but selling can be a major P.I.T.A. My last plane I sold I made a habit of asking the potential buyer a couple of questions before I’d answer any of their questions just to weed out the time wasters.
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Bingo!
Agree completely.

The mechanic that did the pre-purchase inspection on the first plane I ever purchased warned me "It's a lot easier to buy a plane than it is to sell one". I haven't forgotten that since.

There's a big difference between a knowledgable "buyer" that has done some homework and a "shopper".
 
It surprises me on the number of houses that are being bought sight unseen nowadays. Used ones as well as new ones.
 
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