Breeched class D, possible PD

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A2001

Filing Flight Plan
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I’m a new CFI and I was on a flight with a student today. I was flying from one airport to my home airport and flew through a class D airspace without making two way radio communication. I don’t know what I was thinking…or not thinking. I got the dreaded words “possible pilot deviation” when landing at my home airport. I called the number as soon as I was done and reported a NASA safety report form. Now I am stressing! Does anyone have an idea on what is going to happen? Are there going to be punitive actions? Will this be on my record forever?
 
Clip4 said:
What did the person on the other end of the phone say?
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They asked for my info and said that they just have to submit my info and I’ll probably never hear anything back. They said they weren’t too sure on the whole process
 
A2001 said:
They asked for my info and said that they just have to submit my info and I’ll probably never hear anything back. They said they weren’t too sure on the whole process
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He also said he was trying to talk to me 1 mile prior to me entering the airspace but I wouldn’t have heard it unless I was on frequency
 
Sounds to me like you are *gasp* being a human. No worries as you filed a report and called right away. I'm certain you told them, "my bad, I'll do better."

Now if it had been class Bravo it might be different ...
 
Reminds me of a story I heard about the defunct Dean International school in Miami. Their CFIs violated the Bravo until the FAA had enough and started violating them.
 
You could be violated, but the NASA report will likely stay you from penalty.
That said, the violation will always be on your record.

Years ago, that was not the case, as it was expunged after five years.
 
Well technically it’s supposed to be forwarded to the local FSDO. Every facility has a QA person that reviews incidents. If it meets PD criteria, then it’s gets sent to the FSDO and the ASI makes the determination of what step to take. In this case, I seriously doubt they’ll recommend corrective training so you’ll most likely get a phone call or an actual warning letter. If the later, it gets removed from your record after a couple years. Basically a slap on the wrist.
 
Velocity173 said:
Well technically it’s supposed to be forwarded to the local FSDO. Every facility has a QA person that reviews incidents. If it meets PD criteria, then it’s gets sent to the FSDO and the ASI makes the determination of what step to take. In this case, I seriously doubt they’ll recommend corrective training so you’ll most likely get a phone call or an actual warning letter. If the later, it gets removed from your record after a couple years. Basically a slap on the wrist.
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Thing I’m not getting about this is how could a PD have occurred. He just flew through without talking to them. Yeah, it’s a violation of a FAR. And yeah, asking him to give them a call to chat about it in hopes he’ll get it and not do it again makes sense. And if he’s a butt head about it or just doesn’t seem to still get it, telling FSDO about it makes sense. But a PD? There is no separation criteria, therefore no loss of separation could occur, so therefore no PD.
 
A2001 said:
I’m a new CFI and I was on a flight with a student today. I was flying from one airport to my home airport and flew through a class D airspace without making two way radio communication. I don’t know what I was thinking…or not thinking. I got the dreaded words “possible pilot deviation” when landing at my home airport. I called the number as soon as I was done and reported a NASA safety report form. Now I am stressing! Does anyone have an idea on what is going to happen? Are there going to be punitive actions? Will this be on my record forever?
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I'm a bit confused about the "reported a NASA safety report form" since you later say:

They asked for my info and said that they just have to submit my info and I’ll probably never hear anything back
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I just want to make sure that YOU filled out a Aviation Safety Report (NASA report) and are not considering what the controller did to be an ASRS report on your behalf. If you have not filled one out yourself, go to https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/caveat.html?formType=general and fill one out from your point of view.

The NASA safety report form itself, to encourage participation, is designed to protect unwitting pilot mistakes. Per their website
[The FAA] has also chosen to waive fines and penalties, subject to certain limitations, for unintentional violations of federal aviation statutes and regulations which are reported to ASRS.
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(emphasis mine)
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html

So you may get a talking to about how as a CFI you should have done a better job, especially with a student, but unless they have reason to believe it was intentional, you should suffer no real harm beyond a bruised ego.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

And welcome to POA!
 
Velocity173 said:
Well technically it’s supposed to be forwarded to the local FSDO. Every facility has a QA person that reviews incidents. If it meets PD criteria, then it’s gets sent to the FSDO and the ASI makes the determination of what step to take. In this case, I seriously doubt they’ll recommend corrective training so you’ll most likely get a phone call or an actual warning letter. If the later, it gets removed from your record after a couple years. Basically a slap on the wrist.
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This happened to me in Bravo. Totally my fault. I was in radio contact with ATC at the time so the incursion was brief and resolved rapidly by me following ATC instructions for vector and altitude to get out of Bravo the way they wanted it to happen. Once out of Bravo, they gave me the "800 number when ready to copy". I called after completing my flight and was told they may or may not follow-up. The FSDO did a follow-up with me (maybe 2 months later?) and I was given the choice of corrective training which I happily accepted. Three hours of ground lessons on airspace. The incident was not attached to my permanent record.
 
luvflyin said:
Thing I’m not getting about this is how could a PD have occurred. He just flew through without talking to them. Yeah, it’s a violation of a FAR. And yeah, asking him to give them a call to chat about it in hopes he’ll get it and not do it again makes sense. And if he’s a butt head about it or just doesn’t seem to still get it, telling FSDO about it makes sense. But a PD? There is no separation criteria, therefore no loss of separation could occur, so therefore no PD.
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Still a PD since it was a violation of a FAR. Depends on how you interpret “additional notification by ATC” as whether a communications MOR is to be filed.
 
Velocity173 said:
Still a PD since it was a violation of a FAR. Depends on how you interpret “additional notification by ATC” as whether a communications MOR is to be filed.
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Maybe. My understanding of it is, if there’s a loss of separation it has to be one of two things. OE, Controller effed up or PD, Pilot effed up. But calling the FAR violation a PD, generically speaking, ain’t no big deal at the end of the day. Or maybe I’m just flat out wrong ‘bout the whole thang.

EDIT: I be wrong, read on
 
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luvflyin said:
Maybe. My understanding of it is, if there’s a loss of separation it has to be one of two things. OE, Controller effed up or PD, Pilot effed up. But calling the FAR violation a PD, generically speaking, ain’t no big deal at the end of the day. Or maybe I’m just flat out wrong ‘bout the whole thang.
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I’d agree and old school ATC I’d let it slide. But today, they’re going to go by the definition.

7BDE23F3-CE97-42E2-ABA1-1C5B72BE24D8.jpeg
 
In addition to filing an ASRS report, the proactive thing to do is to have a sit-down with another CFI, with your student present as well, to review what happened, and what lessons can be learned to prevent a recurrence. Yes, it was likely just a brain lapse, but there are various factors that contribute to these things (lack of planning, plan changed mid-flight, fatigue, etc). If you have this ground training logged it will show the FAA a proactive attitude towards improving as a pilot, and you would most likely only receive a "go forth and sin no more", though as a CFI they expect you to hold to higher standards, so there is always some chance they want to extract a bit more.
 
WDD said:
Said Martha about her ADSB transponder ........... Didn't work out for her too well.
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One of my favorite "it was the radio" excuses ...


Spoiler: it didn't work for him either!
 
guest user said:
I'm a bit confused about the "reported a NASA safety report form" since you later say:



I just want to make sure that YOU filled out a Aviation Safety Report (NASA report) and are not considering what the controller did to be an ASRS report on your behalf. If you have not filled one out yourself, go to https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/report/caveat.html?formType=general and fill one out from your point of view.

The NASA safety report form itself, to encourage participation, is designed to protect unwitting pilot mistakes. Per their website
(emphasis mine)
https://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/overview/confidentiality.html

So you may get a talking to about how as a CFI you should have done a better job, especially with a student, but unless they have reason to believe it was intentional, you should suffer no real harm beyond a bruised ego.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

And welcome to POA!
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Yes I filled out a NASA ASRS. Okay good to know, the bruised ego already taught me my lesson well enough lol.
 
Mongoose Aviator said:
This happened to me in Bravo. Totally my fault. I was in radio contact with ATC at the time so the incursion was brief and resolved rapidly by me following ATC instructions for vector and altitude to get out of Bravo the way they wanted it to happen. Once out of Bravo, they gave me the "800 number when ready to copy". I called after completing my flight and was told they may or may not follow-up. The FSDO did a follow-up with me (maybe 2 months later?) and I was given the choice of corrective training which I happily accepted. Three hours of ground lessons on airspace. The incident was not attached to my permanent record.
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I'm not super familiar with the pilot deviation process. Was yours considered a PD and how do you know it was not attached to your permanent record?
 
Jeff Oslick said:
In addition to filing an ASRS report, the proactive thing to do is to have a sit-down with another CFI, with your student present as well, to review what happened, and what lessons can be learned to prevent a recurrence. Yes, it was likely just a brain lapse, but there are various factors that contribute to these things (lack of planning, plan changed mid-flight, fatigue, etc). If you have this ground training logged it will show the FAA a proactive attitude towards improving as a pilot, and you would most likely only receive a "go forth and sin no more", though as a CFI they expect you to hold to higher standards, so there is always some chance they want to extract a bit more.
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I have a meeting scheduled with the chief of my school this week. I agree I know my airspace but I wasn't being situationally aware. Totally my fault
 
A2001 said:
I have a meeting scheduled with the chief of my school this week. I agree I know my airspace but I wasn't being situationally aware. Totally my fault
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Owning is great, but some food for thought. As you learned, you don’t recognize you’ve lost SA until after it’s happened. What happened leading up to the point you failed to recognize action needed to be taken is where your learning point is. What caused that to happen so that next time you will recognize it happening and take proactive action to prevent further loss of SA?

That’s what I’d be interested in hearing if I was your Chief Pilot.
 
A2001 said:
I'm not super familiar with the pilot deviation process. Was yours considered a PD and how do you know it was not attached to your permanent record?
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There was paperwork. It was a relatively formal process. Something about FAASTeam. I don't recall the details. Everybody was super nice about it. Emphasis was definitely safety, learning a lesson and not being a repeat offender as opposed to a punishment or retribution or anything like that. They specifically told me the remedial training was in place of anything else and that completion of the training would mean this was not on my record. My thought was only an idiot would turn that offer down. I jumped at it. I was really worried about the entire thing until that point - not knowing what was going to happen.
The Bravo incursion was maybe six hours flying time away from me so they had me team up with a local guy who was able to provide the ground training.

TCABM said:
What happened leading up to the point you failed to recognize action needed to be taken is where your learning point is. What caused that to happen so that next time you will recognize it happening and take proactive action to prevent further loss of SA?
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Yeah. That was the majority of the 3 hours of my remedial ground training. Really a big long discussion.
 
A2001 said:
I'm not super familiar with the pilot deviation process. Was yours considered a PD and how do you know it was not attached to your permanent record?
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It goes into your record but warning letters and letters of correction are automatically expunged after two years.
 
So if you bust a delta and you don't get brashered, you won't get a call?? Er, asking for a friend.
 
PaulS said:
So if you bust a delta and you don't get brashered, you won't get a call?? Er, asking for a friend.
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The odds are, no. Based on an enforcement case (FAA v Brasher - like Miranda, that's where the term comes from), the purpose of the warning is to give you notice so you can consider a defense. So f it's not given you can still be violated but no penalty can be assessed. There are also exceptions, but ATC is not the cops and they are not going to be thinking, "do I have to give it for this?" So they will typically give it unless the don't plan to kick it upstairs.
 
Most likely you will get a call from the FSDO and a recommendation that you review the requirements for different classes of airspace with another CFI, have that review documented in your logbook, and send a photocopy of that documentation to the FSDO. That has been the case with a couple of pilots I know. One landed on a closed runway. We reviewed NOTAMS. The other landed in a farm field and ended upside down. We reviewed preflight actions (his accident was a result of wind shear and he did not get a weather briefing).
 
As you asked yourself what where you thinking.

What answer did you arrive at. Be honest!
 
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