Breaking the landing slump...

M

muleywannabe

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Dec 30, 2013
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331
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Independence, Kansas
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Display name:
Cherokee235
I now have 13 hours in the driver's seat of the piper 235. Total hours are now 21.7.
I am comfortable throughout all the phases of flight, I enjoy doing stalls, they dont spook me. I like to practice S-turns, turns around a point and rectangular pattern work. I feel comfortable doing all of these maneuvers. My radio calls have improved ten fold and I like to talk on the radio, thanks to the advice from folks on here...been practicing it up!

here is my dilemma, I feel mentally I am ready to solo (if that is even possible) except for my landings...Give you an example: Today, I flew with a friend who is a CFI (not my current CFI but is checked out in my plane) just to get some practice. I set us up for stalls, explained how to react etc, much like we do with a new instructor and did well. I felt like I was flying alone and with a friend to somewhere, it was a nice feeling, no stress just flying.

He did the first landing to show me how its done because I asked him too for a confidence builder...Then I did two more, I am having a problem flaring because I cant seem to figure out the flare without ballooning. my first landing, I did good then induced a small balloon but put a lil power in and landed. Next landing more pilot error and ballooning...It is driving me nuts, I just cant get the flare figured out in this low wing...Its such a nose heavy aircraft you really have to be nose straight up it feels like to land...which is a strange concept in my mind for some reason.


I need suggestions and some help, your advice on here has been helpful in the past and figured I would ask.
 
This was a problem I also had before I soloed. I read a post on here about looking at the horizon instead of looking at the runway where you are about to land. I would look at the runway coming towards me and get nervous and fight the landing instead of just letting the plane land itself. I now just look at the horizon just adding back pressure on the yolk until she lands herself. This changed the way I felt about landing and I am no longer nervous about it.
 
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings. Simply put, you should not have enough excess energy to cause the airplane to balloon. However we have all been through this...when do I level off? I can't answer that question for you, but I can tell you that there should be a period of level flight during which aerodynamic drag kills off energy and the airplane automatically loses altitude. When you feel the sink, just lift the nose high enough that the front of the cowl obscures the far end of the runway and wait.

Bob Gardner
 
muleywannabe said:
I now have 13 hours in the driver's seat of the piper 235. Total hours are now 21.7.
I am comfortable throughout all the phases of flight, I enjoy doing stalls, they dont spook me. I like to practice S-turns, turns around a point and rectangular pattern work. I feel comfortable doing all of these maneuvers. My radio calls have improved ten fold and I like to talk on the radio, thanks to the advice from folks on here...been practicing it up!

here is my dilemma, I feel mentally I am ready to solo (if that is even possible) except for my landings...Give you an example: Today, I flew with a friend who is a CFI (not my current CFI but is checked out in my plane) just to get some practice. I set us up for stalls, explained how to react etc, much like we do with a new instructor and did well. I felt like I was flying alone and with a friend to somewhere, it was a nice feeling, no stress just flying.

He did the first landing to show me how its done because I asked him too for a confidence builder...Then I did two more, I am having a problem flaring because I cant seem to figure out the flare without ballooning. my first landing, I did good then induced a small balloon but put a lil power in and landed. Next landing more pilot error and ballooning...It is driving me nuts, I just cant get the flare figured out in this low wing...Its such a nose heavy aircraft you really have to be nose straight up it feels like to land...which is a strange concept in my mind for some reason.


I need suggestions and some help, your advice on here has been helpful in the past and figured I would ask.
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Landings are everything. All the rest of it is noise and easy to get. Until you can nail landings in calm to moderate winds, you should not solo. And your CFI is looking for just that...confident, consistent landings.

Don't fret, that's really the whole enchilada, your landings. Ya gotta do them till you can do them. It's a choke point everyone has, and may take you over 200 to get to a point you are able to solo.
 
muleywannabe said:
I am having a problem flaring because I cant seem to figure out the flare without ballooning. my first landing, I did good then induced a small balloon but put a lil power in and landed. Next landing more pilot error and ballooning...It is driving me nuts, I just cant get the flare figured out in this low wing...Its such a nose heavy aircraft you really have to be nose straight up it feels like to land...which is a strange concept in my mind for some reason.
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Ballooning is normally a product of too much speed carried into ground effect and starting the flare way too late. Start getting the power off and the nose coming up when you are still 20 feet off the ground or so; don't wait until the airplane is at three feet and make an abrupt flare. It's difficult to get any success doing that.

Dan
 
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Dan Thomas said:
Ballooning is normally a product of too much speed carried into ground effect and starting the flare way too late. Start getting the power off and the nose coming up when you are still 20 feet of the ground or so; don't wait until the airplane is at three feet and make an abrupt flare. It's difficult to get any success doing that.

Dan
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this is exactly what I have been doing!! everything everyone said above makes complete sense. Its just a very frustrating event for sure.
 
muleywannabe said:
this is exactly what I have been doing!! everything everyone said above makes complete sense. Its just a very frustrating event for sure.
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You'll get it eventually. The problem is, reading about landing an airplane is like reading how to dance. Sure, you understand the steps but... you really just have to do it (and keep practicing) before you'll really get the hang of it.
 
Get your level sight picture
Hold it level until the airplane begins its sink
Then keep pulling in back pressure, the whole way through.
Remember the airplane has to get to its sink first. That is where you have lost enough speed to no longer create enough lift to fly, and was my most helpful queue. I didn't really start landing well until after over 100 landings, but I am thick headed :)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
 
this:

bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings........Bob Gardner
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and this:

bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings........Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

and some of this:

bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings........Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

but absolutely this:
bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings........Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

and most definitely this:
bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings........Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

just remember to add 'looking farther down the runway' as another not-optional function of making better landings (ie not ballooning).
 
This is not great landing advice but it turns fast landings into very smooth landings

You will have to figure out the flaring thing but in the event you come in too fast you can prevent ballooning and it makes for a nice greaser.

I do this when I fly with passengers especially if the runway is long.
pitch for the numbers
round out gradually as the runway approaches. No abrupt movements. It will almost be like the yoke is coming back at the same speed as the descent rate visually. descent slows, yoke slows. Descent stops, yoke stops,

the yoke comes back gently until the plane is flying level over the runway.
plane starts to settle, ever so slightly ease the yoke back to hold altitude
plane starts to settle, ever so slightly ease the yoke back to hold altitude
plane starts to settle, ever so slightly ease the yoke back to hold altitude
plane starts to settle, ever so slightly ease the yoke back to hold altitude

It is a fluid process and done a lot by feel. and you just have to baby it.

you may not even feel the mains touch, your Pax will think you are the best pilot ever.
Your instructor however, will smack you on the head and tell you you are a passenger and not a pilot.

You need to know how to flare properly but there will be times when you come in too fast. You can slip and do other things but if you find yourself nearing the numbers and you are to fast, flaring will make you balloon do the above instead and it makes for a nice touchdown.
 
I fly a 235 as well and have over 150 hours in it. I did my first 3 lessons in 160's the flight school I used had and then bought into the 235 I now fly. It was quite a difference in terms of landing the airplane, no question about that.

The key to a successful 235 landing is a great approach (really a great pattern). Period.

If you are too fast you'll float and balloon halfway down a 5000' runway. Make sure that you are trimming properly for power changes, especially once you get on final. You don't have to have the yoke back to your gut in a 235 like you do with some other planes but if you aren't trimming right then the amount you have to pull back will seem unnatural.

Can't stress enough the speed chart below. If it's just you and your CFI and your blazing in at 75-80 kts on final (and it's easy to do!!!)...you are going to have your hands full. My CFI let me do that to figure it out for myself on our first 2 hour round of pattern work. I must have done 25 landings that day and most weren't great. I had recorded it so I went home and watched and noticed I was way fast on all the bad ones. I told him the next time we flew that I think I figured it out. He knew all along and had told me several times to watch my speed...but nothing like figuring it out for yourself.

As you noted as well, the 235 likes a tich of power if you want a squeaky landing. I've never been a fan of nor have I seen any of the other 3 guys who fly our plane and have way more experience than I do pull power somewhere on final and glide it in. Sure, you gotta practice that...but as you've found it - it's quite nose heavy and once you cut power you are basically a rock with wings. So, keeping a little power until the wheels touch is helpful.

Another visual that helped me was Rob Machado's video on when to flare. Check it out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv5HEJCyTuk

I'd highly recommend subscribing to and reading posts on the 235 forum. Here's an example of a great post that helped me a ton (there are several versions of this post on the P28 forum, but I like this one the best):

235/6's have 21 knts of variability in their correct Vref (approach) speed, depending on flap setting and weight, apart even for correcting for gust. If you are not on-speed for your weight/profile, then the rest of what you need to do will vary. You may be just out of lift and thunck down, or with way too much energy and float a long way, or you might even be at the right speed for a good one, all at that one speed of xx.

Here's the chart from http://p28b.com/ :

Here are my speeds, actually determined experimentally from Vs1, a couple knots over book as is typical.

[Edit: speeds are in knots]

Vref......... MGW... 2800... 2600... 2400... 2200
Clean........... 86..... 83..... 80..... 77..... 74
Flaps 10...... 83..... 80..... 77..... 74..... 71
Flaps 25...... 80..... 77..... 74..... 71..... 68
Flaps 40...... 77..... 74..... 71..... 68..... 65

There is no chance that you can execute a landing consistently without correcting for this. Once you do, you make the job much easier.
 
bobmrg said:
If you are ballooning you have too much airspeed; good landings are slow landings. Simply put, you should not have enough excess energy to cause the airplane to balloon. However we have all been through this...when do I level off? I can't answer that question for you, but I can tell you that there should be a period of level flight during which aerodynamic drag kills off energy and the airplane automatically loses altitude. When you feel the sink, just lift the nose high enough that the front of the cowl obscures the far end of the runway and wait.

Bob Gardner
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Best advice here so far, and here is my $.02.

The best landing practice is... to not land. Bring the plane 2-3' over the runway and maintain that heigh the entire length of the runway. DON'T land the plane. Keep adding and reducing power so you get the site picture, feel, maintain, and control the airplane. Do that 2-3 times then land.
 
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I flew a 235 for 12 years, and a thousand (?) landings. It is not the easiest plane to land, nor the hardest, but you can do a few things to make your life easier.

Your timing issues (and that's what it is, really) will resolve themselves with practice. Can't help you with that, really.

However, the one tip that CAN make a big difference is this: Lubricate your yoke shafts.

Our Pathfinder (Cherokee 235) would, over time, develop some "stiction" in the yoke. This meant that flaring to land went from being a very fluid, continuous motion to a series of tiny jerks.

A can of silicone spray lubricant made a big difference. Hold a rag behind the shaft and spray it liberally. Wipe off the excess. Do NOT use graphite! (Someone had, on ours, and for at least five years that stuff kept coming out, making a gawdawful mess of everything.)

Add this to your list of things to try. You will be surprised how much better it feels in the flare.
 
Yeah, lube your shaft dude. :)

Sorry Jay, couldn't resist.
 
muleywannabe said:
this is exactly what I have been doing!! everything everyone said above makes complete sense. Its just a very frustrating event for sure.
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Are you SURE?

A 235 with only two people is likely to be WAY below max gross. The POH speeds are written for max gross, and your best landings will be close to the short field approach speed at max gross. It will be even slower if you're seriously light.

Almost every student approaches too fast. Go up and do a straight ahead power off stall with full flap with your instructor and normal loading. Measure the stall speed, convert to CAS, then multiply by 1.3 and convert back to IAS. Try that for an approach speed, and see if the balloon improves. Don't skip the conversions; they can be significant near the stall speed.
 
Jay Honeck said:
However, the one tip that CAN make a big difference is this: Lubricate your yoke shafts.
Click to expand...

Hey Jay - where exactly are you lubricating? On the shaft that sticks out of the panel or behind the panel somewhere? Ours is a little squeaky...don't really notice too much of what you refer to about stiction...but it could probably use a little lube. :)

Other thing about the Cherokee's as well (and maybe other planes...don't have a lot of experience there) is that the last bit of travel in the yoke is more of pull UP rather than OUT. Something you have to get used to for sure...
 
Dan Thomas said:
Ballooning is normally a product of too much speed carried into ground effect and starting the flare way too late. Start getting the power off and the nose coming up when you are still 20 feet of the ground or so...
Dan
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I prefer to have power at idle by 50', if not well before.

It made things easier for my students as well - one less thing to worry about during the roundout and flare.
 
I also have found that looking too far ahead of the plane was a common problem for my students with landing difficulties. They were attempting to judge height staring at a point that may be nearly a mile away. Fast Eddie and the FAA both recommend bringing the focal point closer in the flare.*

I have posted an article I wrote for the Cirrus Owner's magazine - I'll try to post a link to it shortly.


*But whatever works!
 
Just hang in there and keep practicing; it will come.

I'm a 1,500 hour PPL with an instrument rating and all that good stuff and over the past 30 years I've learned how to land most tricycle airplanes like nobody's business.

However, I recently took up the tailwheel beast and it's like starting all over again, except worse because I'm 50 now instead of 20 and old habits are hard to break.

I was bouncing and overcontrolling and flaring too high and all the rest, so my instructor had me do 3 or low passes, holding it off just above the runway, to help me get the right sight picture for the flare. That really helped, especially since the stress of having to land was removed.

Then we started landing again. Things were much better. I was still overcontrolling a bit, and not looking far enough down the runway, but little by little I got those resolved and it's starting to gel now. Now I feel like I stand a better than even chance of having a decent landing every time. But I'm going to stick it through with the instructor for at least 2-4 more sessions until my landings are consistently 8+ on a 10-point scale. It just takes time and practice.
 
kenjr said:
Hey Jay - where exactly are you lubricating? On the shaft that sticks out of the panel or behind the panel somewhere? Ours is a little squeaky...don't really notice too much of what you refer to about stiction...but it could probably use a little lube. :)

Other thing about the Cherokee's as well (and maybe other planes...don't have a lot of experience there) is that the last bit of travel in the yoke is more of pull UP rather than OUT. Something you have to get used to for sure...
Click to expand...
Just pull the yoke out all the way, put your rag under it (to minimize over spray) and give it a good, soaking spray from above. Pull the yoke in and out to work the silicone around.

Wipe off any excess, and you're done. Repeat as often as needed. You can't over-lubricate it!
 
I'll quote myself from another post.

A truly good landing ain't just paint by numbers, try this out, it's worked for all my students with no exceptions (0 time tail wheel guys too)

Bring it in at vref, make sure the runway numbers don't move in your windscreen --> point of impact --> they move up you're too low, down you're too high.

Runway assured, pull the power

As you get low, as in a few feet, focus changes from the numbers to the infinity point, this is the point on the horizon (way way down the runway center line) that moves the least. Think of those paintings of roads with the power lines that go on forever, the the road just disappears into that point.

Keep looking at that point and try to hold the plane 1 inch off the runaway.

Bingo.


*Ailerons to keep the plane in the middle of the runway, rudder to keep it point down the center line.

*The cowl position crap doesn't work when you change planes, just use good fundamentals.

*Remember a flare isn't something you do, it's a side effect of what I discussed above

*Pretend there is a ratchet on the yoke, once you pull it back you can't put it forward from that position, if it balloons a little just wait for her to settle down and add more back pressure or a lil power.

Blue skies
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Different techniques will work for different pilots, but as far as where to focus, here's the FAA recommendation which has worked for me and my students over the years:

11403149764_e680233f9f.jpg
 
muleywannabe said:
awesome! thanks for all the advice everyone. definitely has inspired me to practice and learn more.
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I kept doing three wheel landings and ticking off my CFI. He finally dumped me onto another guy who was a former aerospace engineer to 'get the kink out'.

The problem was bringing the nose up. I simply refused to do it.

So, he laid out a runway at 2000 feet agl. He had me do a pattern up in the air around the virtual airfield. As I entered the fantasy final, he had me put on landing config and speeds and pull the nose up and stall. I did that about 10 times.

He also gave me a great tip. He mentioned 'velocity vector'. The idea that whereever you have the plane pointed when you get into ground effect is where the plane will keep going. This turns out to be the main reason the CFI harps about 'stable final' its to get the plane centered and over the runway going in the same direction as the runway.

Then we went back to the airfield. I landed perfectly first try, and kept landing perfectly for about five more. The trick? Not sight picture, not flare (though you need to be near the ground so you wont balloon), not really even the speeds or the other visual aids like PAPI.

It was simply 'letting' the plane settle till almost on the runway and pulling back the stick steadily and KEEPING it back till the nose went up and the mains touched down. The velocity vector will keep the plane moving down the runway, so the only thing you need to remember is to keep the nosegear light till you can get to turning and taxi speeds.

Easy-peezy.
 
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I still have issues getting the stall landing (training in a warrior). I got to play around solo on Saturday, and really concentrated on being slower than I had in the past when I had the runway made. Although I am not getting to the stall horn, I was consistantly touching down with an airspeed of about 50 knots, and that seemed to avoid the floating. previously I had been hitting the threshold at more like 60 to 65 and floating would result. Still need to get that nose higher for a true stall landing. It is frustrating.
 
drotto said:
I still have issues getting the stall landing (training in a warrior). I got to play around solo on Saturday, and really concentrated on being slower than I had in the past when I had the runway made. Although I am not getting to the stall horn, I was consistantly touching down with an airspeed of about 50 knots, and that seemed to avoid the floating. previously I had been hitting the threshold at more like 60 to 65 and floating would result. Still need to get that nose higher for a true stall landing. It is frustrating.
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As long as you are flaring at or near your approach final speed you will be able to touchdown at or near stall speed, or a little faster, it doesn't hurt.

Once you level over the runway, even if high a bit, be patient and let the plane settle on it's own. The trick is to pull the nose up a couple of feet off the runway and keep it up. It's like how birds do it, the swoop and stick out their feet and land. When you pull that nose up, if you have a little extra speed, the wings will brake you.

That's why some get the so-called sight picture fixation. It helps some judge the nose actually rising up and how much by looking DOWN to the end of the runway. After you do it enough, you no longer really need to do that as you can simply 'see' the nose rise and can 'feel' the ground effect cushion. But for now, don't look for those things, look downt the runway and try to judge lifting the nose at the right time. The rest takes care of itself.
 
The silicone-spray-on-the-yoke-shaft thing is mostly a waste of time unless that shaft is cleaned off first. Non-chlorinated brake and parts cleaner is what I use, and I get some into the panel bushing too, to try to drag the gunk out of there as well. The shaft and bushing get loaded up with oils from your skin and with a bit of dust you get the stickiness, applying silicone won't work for long unless you remove the crud first.

Dan
 
Again, different pilots will use different techniques, and perhaps use varied mental imagery and even different language to describe how they get their desired results.

I mention that, because at virtually no time* does my landing ever involve allowing the plane to "settle". Like others here, for most landings I will just hold the plane off as long as I can, never giving up so as to let the plane "settle" onto the runway.

If it's gusty, I may "fly the plane on" rather than get too slow in the flare, but I still would never describe that as letting the plane "settle" - it's more like I'm planting it.

We may just be using different words to describe the same thing, but I personally would not tell a student to let the plane "settle" onto the runway - I think that implants a poor mental image.


*Talking mainly small GA planes here of course. The one time I would advise a student to ease the plane down and allow it to "settle" would be a night landing with no landing light, since accurately determine height is extremely difficult if you can't see the runway!
 
A little mind freak that helps me a lot is when I go over the threshold, I mentally tell myself, " o.k. get on the stick and rudder."

Keep your head out of the cockpit on final and just fly the plane and have fun.

The plane will tell you what it wants and after a while you will hear it and feel it. Let it land itself. It wants to land. That's it's home. It wants to go home. :)
 
Jimmy cooper said:
In about 50 more hours you might be embarrassed about posting this. Experience takes care of it.
Click to expand...

This...

So I am 10 months ppl
And I get it now that the answer to a lot of student pilot questions is you will just get it at some point.

No advice will really make it happen.

I was the guy asking about the flare and thinking I would never be able to land a plane. I cannot tell you when it happened but now I can land the crap out of my plane in a lot of situations. Short, soft, slip, X wind...

How do you express that one day this will just not be an issue anymore?

As a student I REALLY wanted the magic landing formula
As a pilot I really wish I had one to give out.

It is just going to become a non issue at some point. I wish there was a way to say that that satisfied the student struggling with landings.
 
Two revelations helped me finally get it:

  1. Slow down!
  2. "Flare" is poor terminology
Students are invariably too fast when learning to land, and often they get an unfortunate assist from their instructors. My instructor is a stellar pilot. Yet, she wasn't nearly strict enough on my approach speed, and more than once I heard her say "some extra speed is better than too little". Which is perhaps (maybe not) fine for an experienced pilot. But an experienced pilot a student is not. A "little extra speed" gets added to your already too-high approach speed, and all of a sudden you're 10 or 15 or 20 knots too fast. That plays absolute hell on your landings as you scream into the flare with too much energy, causing ballooning and floating while you bleed off that energy. And inevitable you get impatient as seconds tic by, and you try to force it to land or give up on it altogether, causing bounces, porpoising, or nose-first landings.

Look in your POH, find your approach speed range, choose the lower end, and nail that puppy. Don't settle for 5 knots too fast, or 3 knots, or 2 knots. Nail it. Your landings will thank you.

That brings me to the "flare". Maybe it's just me, but the word flare conjures to mind an abrupt maneuver. And yank-back; a sudden arresting of your descent. None of these descriptions are accurate for what should be happening as you near the runway. What you want is a smooth round-out, starting well above the runway. Note that your approach speed is well above your ideal touchdown speed. It's this smooth round-out where you bleed off the remainder of your speed. So start well above the runway, smoothly round out into level flight just above the runway, then wait for that sink and smoothly pull back, pull back, hold the plane off, don't let it land.

Those were my two landing hurdles. Once I understood what I needed to do, I finally "got it".

Good luck, we're all counting on you...
 
For what it's worth I had the same problem when I started my flight training last year.

I fly a Piper Warrior II and I was having the same issues due to the fact I was ground shy and afraid to slow the airplane down.

I started trimming for 63 knots on short final and right when the runway triples in size in the windscreen, I begin my flare by pulling the nose up to the distant horizon( you can find Rod Machado's video about this flare technique on youtube)

No matter what approach you take you'll get there, I finally earned my PPL in October of last year and I'm almost up to 100 hours PIC :)

James
 
Most people balloon because they don't have enough trim in and don't have the required dexterity when pulling against that much force. The other reason for ballooning is just carrying too much energy. It it the energy bleeding off that requires the finesse, so go up and dirty stall, note the speed, go into the CAS-IAS table in the POH and get the CAS, multiply it by 1.3, get the IAS for that number, and don't exceed that speed on final. Now go fly that speed level and find the trim position for it. Now go power off and keep on rolling in trim see what it slows down to, try to get to 1.1 Vso. Now add some throttle and see what it takes to get to 300fpm descent with full flaps, then see what it takes to get 600fpm and to arrest sink, you now have your throttle range to work in, listen to it. You trim for your speed, and tune your throttle to control altitude.

You have to learn to manage your energy smoothly. Ballooning is nothing more than mishandling deceleration and adding too much drag too quickly in the form of lift. You have to maintain a balance with gravity. It requires an easy slow pull back, and in order for that to be possible, you need to be in trim, and in order for it to not use the entire runway, you have to minimize the excess energy you need to get rid of after the transition to level in ground effect, because once in ground effect, energy becomes much more difficult to get rid of.
 
MAKG1 said:
Brake cleaner around bushings?

That stuff eats rubber and plastic parts for lunch.
Click to expand...

I specified the non-chlorinated cleaner, didn't I? It doesn't hurt plastics.

Dan
 
Dan Thomas said:
I specified the non-chlorinated cleaner, didn't I? It doesn't hurt plastics.

Dan
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Yes, it does.

The non-chlorinated part is about ozone depletion and toxics, and it's next to impossible to find anything else these days. It's not at all about protecting soft parts. A strong cleaner is designed to dissolve soft stuff because it might be dirt.

Believe me, I've changed my share of mutilated automotive seals from that stuff. It's not as nasty as toluene or lacquer thinner, but it's close.

An example of a plastic-safe cleaner would be electrical contact cleaner.
 
drotto said:
I still have issues getting the stall landing (training in a warrior). I got to play around solo on Saturday, and really concentrated on being slower than I had in the past when I had the runway made. Although I am not getting to the stall horn, I was consistantly touching down with an airspeed of about 50 knots, and that seemed to avoid the floating. previously I had been hitting the threshold at more like 60 to 65 and floating would result. Still need to get that nose higher for a true stall landing. It is frustrating.
Click to expand...

Just be happy when you land on the mains only and let the nosewheel down slowly.

Bob Gardner
 
MAKG1 said:
Yes, it does.

The non-chlorinated part is about ozone depletion and toxics, and it's next to impossible to find anything else these days. It's not at all about protecting soft parts. A strong cleaner is designed to dissolve soft stuff because it might be dirt.

Believe me, I've changed my share of mutilated automotive seals from that stuff. It's not as nasty as toluene or lacquer thinner, but it's close.

An example of a plastic-safe cleaner would be electrical contact cleaner.
Click to expand...

This manufacturer of non-chlorinated brake and parts cleaner says it's safe on most automotive plastics:
http://www.autozone.com/autozone/ac...e-cleaner/_/N-25h0?itemIdentifier=219615_0_0_

It will attack polycarbonates. I've never had it attack the nylon shaft bushings.

Aircraft seals--and most other seals--aren't made of such plastics. Most seals will react to fluids they're not designed for. I used to make a decent living rebuilding automotive hydraulic brake systems to which someone had added motor oil or ATF or some similar incompatible fluid.

Dan
 
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