Bravo Breaching

Penguinforce

Penguinforce

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Penguinforce
I overheard a guy at my local flight school talking about how on a recent flight he accidentally breached bravo for about a minute and by only about 200 feet. He was also just on the common 121.5 frequency. He quickly descended out of it and then about 20 minutes later picked up flight following. He said he was worried he would be in trouble for breaching the space momentarily but never heard anything about this occurrence from the flight following atc and went on to his destination without incident. I have always heard that breaching bravo is one of the worst things that can happen, non accident wise.

I have two questions about this.
1) If you are not on the departure frequency when this occurs, like in this case when he was on 121.5, how can atc contact you about a breach?
2) If atc doesn’t lecture you or ask about the occurrence when you pick up flight following following an incident like this, are you in trouble? Is there something that needs to be done or is it kind of one of those situations they maybe didn’t notice and the guy just got lucky?

I’m a new pilot so these may be slightly silly questions but I’m genuinely curious about this
 
It’s a daily occurrence and if the pilot in question hasn’t heard anything, then I wouldn’t worry. Friend of mine used to work ATL B and he said if the violation caused a loss of sep with another aircraft, he’d tag up the target and and follow it to its destination (if able). Then they (sup) would call the FBO there. If no loss of sep occurred, generally he didn’t even bother to follow the target.
 
With ADSB it’s easier to follow the target,adsb doesn’t show who the pilot is.aTC also says you can’t trust your GPS for avoiding class B.
 
200 feet... I think they would have a tough time proving that one. Isn’t 200 feet off for mode C reporting within tolerance?
 
Penguinforce said:
I have always heard that breaching bravo is one of the worst things that can happen, non accident wise.
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It isn't.
source.gif

:D
 
Ok this has been very helpful. I guess a follow up question would be is there a point in pointing out you did something wrong if no one saw or cared to follow up? Ie fill out the NASA form for no reason? Isn’t it bringing attention to yourself?
Another question slightly related is if a pilot were close in altitude to a bravo shelf, but they were using one altimeter and the airport is using another, could you get in trouble for breaching the airspace, even though with your altimeter reading showed you were not in their airspace but the airport is saying you are?
 
Penguinforce said:
Ok this has been very helpful. I guess a follow up question would be is there a point in pointing out you did something wrong if no one saw or cared to follow up? Ie fill out the NASA form for no reason? Isn’t it bringing attention to yourself?
Another question slightly related is if a pilot were close in altitude to a bravo shelf, but they were using one altimeter and the airport is using another, could you get in trouble for breaching the airspace, even though with your altimeter reading showed you were not in their airspace but the airport is saying you are?
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Filing a NASA ASRS report is anonymous. It will not bring attention from the FAA, and can only help you.
That said, I have gotten phone calls from the NASA folks wanting more info on the situation. No FAA involvement. That would destroy the entire reporting system.
 
I don’t understand the mindset of filing a nasa for situations like this. I can see if busted the bravo due to ATC instruction, pilot course adjustment for safety. But the whole wasn’t paying attention or messing around with the iPad! I don’t see the need for a nasa.
 
Penguinforce said:
I have two questions about this.
1) If you are not on the departure frequency when this occurs, like in this case when he was on 121.5, how can atc contact you about a breach?
Click to expand...
They’ll just get the ownership information from your tail number.
Penguinforce said:
2) If atc doesn’t lecture you or ask about the occurrence when you pick up flight following following an incident like this, are you in trouble? Is there something that needs to be done or is it kind of one of those situations they maybe didn’t notice and the guy just got lucky?
Click to expand...
More than likely if you don’t hear anything after you check-in with ATC, you’re okay. Generally, you’ll just get a simple education about how the system works and you’ll be on your way, (if it does come to that point) but only in extreme cases will you see certificate action from something like this.

Shortly after I earned my pilot certificate, I inadvertently busted the outer shelf of the local Charlie airspace and didn’t realize it until I was a few hundred feet into it. I filed a NASA and never heard anything. Of course that was six or so years ago now. It happens, but it’s one of those things that requires extra situational awareness so it doesn’t happen again.
 
TommyG said:
I don’t understand the mindset of filing a nasa for situations like this. I can see if busted the bravo due to ATC instruction, pilot course adjustment for safety. But the whole wasn’t paying attention or messing around with the iPad! I don’t see the need for a nasa.
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From a pilot standpoint, the “need” would be not getting suspended if it resulted in an FAA investigation.
 
Penguinforce said:
I overheard a guy at my local flight school talking about how on a recent flight he accidentally breached bravo for about a minute and by only about 200 feet. He was also just on the common 121.5 frequency. He quickly descended out of it and then about 20 minutes later picked up flight following. He said he was worried he would be in trouble for breaching the space momentarily but never heard anything about this occurrence from the flight following atc and went on to his destination without incident. I have always heard that breaching bravo is one of the worst things that can happen, non accident wise.

I have two questions about this.
1) If you are not on the departure frequency when this occurs, like in this case when he was on 121.5, how can atc contact you about a breach?
2) If atc doesn’t lecture you or ask about the occurrence when you pick up flight following following an incident like this, are you in trouble? Is there something that needs to be done or is it kind of one of those situations they maybe didn’t notice and the guy just got lucky?

I’m a new pilot so these may be slightly silly questions but I’m genuinely curious about this
Click to expand...

Odds are they never noticed it. I speak from the experience of 30 years as a controller. The 200 foot thing discussed above is true. That you didn't hear anything on 121 and a half, and you didn't get a number to call when you got to your destination bears this out. They can track your 1200 target and try to get someone at your destination to have you call them even if it's an untowered airport and there was adequate Radar coverage to track you that far. But that's only if they notice and/or care. That being said, you have nothing to lose by filing an ASRS
 
MauleSkinner said:
From a pilot standpoint, the “need” would be not getting suspended if it resulted in an FAA investigation.
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That’s my point, last time I brought that up about pilots filing a Nass because they screwed up, people jumped in and stated it is all about safety and not a get out of jail free card, But when airspace is busted because someone flies close to it with no buffer, or is playing with Foreflight and not paying attention. The pilot can’t really put anything in a nasa form that is worthwhile.
 
TommyG said:
That’s my point, last time I brought that up about pilots filing a Nass because they screwed up, people jumped in and stated it is all about safety and not a get out of jail free card, But when airspace is busted because someone flies close to it with no buffer, or is playing with Foreflight and not paying attention. The pilot can’t really put anything in a nasa form that is worthwhile.
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There’s nothing in the ASRS program that says “worthwhile” is a prerequisite. I’m sure they assumed a significant percentage of reports would be simply pilots not paying attention. But apparently, on the whole, they feel it’s providing enough safety information to continue it.

and no, you don’t get out of jail free...if the FAA determines cause to violate you, you avoid jail with a violation in your record provided the violation meets the criteria set forth in the program.
 
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Just file it as being in the Bravo for no more than a few seconds, there was no danger so you took it.

:D

I fly out of/under/near Bravo airspace every time I fly. On a couple of occasions I’ve negligently nudged it without being cleared. They still let me fly. The tolerances aren’t set to zero. And if the alt setting wasn’t set to the current Bravo ATIS then maybe the plane wasn’t even in the B airspace. Or maybe it was 300 feet in. Point is the controllers aren’t going to sweat that if it’s barely a glance and the pilot corrects it.

Not trying to make it seem like a trivial thing. Of course, mind the airspace. Small glances typically are not noticed though if immediately corrected. Just a note: it’s wise to at least monitor the approach/tower frequency if possible when flying nearby any controlled airspace.
 
I've heard several people busting the bravo in Boston getting admonished by ATC, I heard the controller tell one guy that because there was no loss of separation that he wouldn't get a number to call but to be more careful. I've also heard a couple pilots get the number to call. GPS and a moving map really help with this stuff.
 
TommyG said:
I don’t understand the mindset of filing a nasa for situations like this. I can see if busted the bravo due to ATC instruction, pilot course adjustment for safety. But the whole wasn’t paying attention or messing around with the iPad! I don’t see the need for a nasa.
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3 Reason to file NASA report
1. You have nothing to loose
2. Its free
3. To sleep at night
 
As others have said, file the ASRS and bust no more. If for nothing else, it will help you understand what happened, why it happened, and how to avoid having it happen again.

Those who suggest the ASRS isn’t intended for situations like this don’t really understand the point of the system. A bravo bust can happen for any number of reasons. Sometimes the pilot may be at fault, other times others may be at fault. Filing the report provides valuable data into the system that could lead to improvements in charts, procedures, etc. You have nothing to loose, get a direct benefit, and help the aviation community.

As a side note, browse through the reports filed by others. People file them for all sorts of situations.
 
DanStrange said:
Here’s the phone call with his “explanation”

https://cdn.muckrock.com/foia_files/2020/09/15/FLM1_Phone_Call_N731NR_-_Redacted.wav
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Thanks for posting this, I now have some sympathy for this guy, sounds like there was chaos in that airplane when this happened. As soon as he realized he had busted he should have explained and asked for priority handling. He could be full of crap but I tend to believe his story. I also think it's kind of dumb to take a young kid on a 3+ hour flight, on a bumpy day, with no way to relieve herself. But that's me.
 
He sounded to me like someone trying to sound apologetic. He never said anything he was actually sorry about. Just "I apologize" over and over. I listened to the ATC again after listening to him, and I struggling to appreciate his predicament. He had plenty of time and energy to argue, but none to comply. Even if you take his story as 100% true, you don't continue to fly around inside a Bravo without a clearance after being informed of such, without at least declaring an emergency first. If you're told to leave a Bravo, you leave the Bravo. He got in with the Mountains there, he could get out with the mountains there just as well.
 
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