Brain fart

judypilot

judypilot

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Feb 23, 2005
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Viola, ID
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Display name:
Judy Parrish
Yesterday I flew out of Palo Alto, CA, and asked for flight following to Klamath Falls (my refueling stop on the way home) via SUNOL, an intersection that's a good place to aim for leaving the crazy airspace of the San Francisco Bay. Ground asked for the identifier for Klamath Falls, and I answered "Kilo, Lima, Mike......uh." Then I said, "I've been flying for 32 years and I can't remember the designation for 'T'". The controller said, "T". "Affirmative." Several seconds later, my brain recovered and I said "Tango."

Embarrassing, but then again, the controller didn't come back with "Tango", so maybe I wasn't the only one!

By the way, I was originally going to fly into Watsonville the day of that horrible mid-air. I didn't because yesterday I intended to leave early, and Watsonville had been socked in until later than I wanted to leave (it had cleared up by the time of the accident). Glad I didn't because if Watsonville even cleared yesterday, it wasn't until really late. Even Palo Alto didn't clear until about 1030.
 
Yesterday I was IFR and Memphis center was having a hard time coming through. I thought I was gonna have to go lost comms. They were coming in broken but I could barely hear them and they couldn't hear me. Finally they heard me and asked how they sounded...I said..."I hear you but you sound not good." Seconds go by and I hear them say. "So we sound BROKEN?". Um yes broken it is. Hahaha I knew broken was correct but couldn't say it.
 
judypilot said:
and I answered "Kilo, Lima, Mike......uh."
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I have heard a number of controllers say, "Please don't include that first KILO when giving us an identifier." (I once actually got complimented for not using it. No big deal - I learned before GPS and never picked up the habit.)

If I understand correctly, the way their systems work, it leads to errors or the need for repeated input. I suspect they know the airport is in the lower 48 without it.
 
Once, I was inbound to New Orleans KMSY. Moisant Stock Yards, get it? They had just un-named it from "Moisant" to "Louis Armstrong". A local favorite and one of mine too. I was in moderate task overload at the time and told APC that I was landing at Don King International. He didn't skip a beat, gave me a vector to Armstrong Int.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have heard a number of controllers say, "Please don't include that first KILO when giving us an identifier." (I once actually got complimented for not using it. No big deal - I learned before GPS and never picked up the habit.)

If I understand correctly, the way their systems work, it leads to errors or the need for repeated input. I suspect they know the airport is in the lower 48 without it.
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The reason is that there are only three characters in a destination on the scratch pad on radar. They ask destination and are typing when they get a response. So they type in K and the rest and then realize they have to back space and start all over. On the other hand, I can't think of a single airport with a three letter identifier that starts with K. The K is a given as all controlled US airports start with K.
 
Timbeck2 said:
The reason is that there are only three characters in a destination on the scratch pad on radar. They ask destination and are typing when they get a response. So they type in K and the rest and then realize they have to back space and start all over. On the other hand, I can't think of a single airport with a three letter identifier that starts with K. The K is a given as all controlled US airports start with K.
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There are a some in Alaska and Hawaii, but they are P airports. Yeah, there are no KK_ _ airports. I’d guess there were a lotta K three letter ID’s back before the four letter thing started and they changed them.
 
Timbeck2 said:
The reason is that there are only three characters in a destination on the scratch pad on radar. They ask destination and are typing when they get a response. So they type in K and the rest and then realize they have to back space and start all over. On the other hand, I can't think of a single airport with a three letter identifier that starts with K. The K is a given as all controlled US airports start with K.
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I thought it was something like that. Thanks.
 
luvflyin said:
There are a some in Alaska and Hawaii, but they are P airports. Yeah, there are no KK_ _ airports. I’d guess there were a lotta K three letter ID’s back before the four letter thing started and they changed them.
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That's funny. I'd guess that except for the airports which changed from alphanumeric IDs to all letters, there were no 3-letter K IDs, unless you are going way way back. ICAO was formed in 1947 because of a post-war realization that commercial aviation was going to be a big deal. I wonder how much longer it was before that started assigning country codes. I have the impression they have existed for a long time; we just didn't use them until GPS.
 
midlifeflyer said:
That's funny. I'd guess that except for the airports which changed from alphanumeric IDs to all letters, there were no 3-letter K IDs, unless you are going way way back. ICAO was formed in 1947 because of a post-war realization that commercial aviation was going to be a big deal. I wonder how much longer it was before that started assigning country codes. I have the impression they have existed for a long time; we just didn't use them until GPS.
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Way back is what I meant. Before they started using the 4 letter thing. But I see your point that they could have been doing it even way backer before that in preparation for when they actually got around to doing it. We’ll probably have to go see Mr. Peabody and fire up the Way Back Machine to know for sure.:idea:

 
luvflyin said:
Way back is what I meant. Before they started using the 4 letter thing. But I see your point that they could have been doing it even way backer before that in preparation for when they actually got around to doing it. We’ll probably have to go see Mr. Peabody and fire up the Way Back Machine to know for sure.:idea:
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What I meant was that they may have been doing it way backer before pilots in the US began to use them. AFAIK, we pilots didn't start using the K until the late 1990s when they started appearing in GPS databases (and oitseem US ATC still doesn't use them!) but they existed and were in use on an international level long before that.

Let's ask Mr. Peabody to find out!
 
midlifeflyer said:
What I meant was that they may have been doing it way backer before pilots in the US began to use them. AFAIK, we pilots didn't start using the K until the late 1990s when they started appearing in GPS databases (and oitseem US ATC still doesn't use them!) but they existed and were in use on an international level long before that.

Let's ask Mr. Peabody to find out!
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Gotcha. @Pilawt , you’ve come up with some pretty old Charts before. Do you remember any 3 letter ID’s starting with K?
 
Who is teaching people to include the K and why?:confused2:
 
dmspilot said:
Who is teaching people to include the K and why?:confused2:
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Teaching it? Beats me. Same folks who are teaching "any traffic please advise, " "last call," and "position checks." Or CFIs who got used to using it and don't know any better themselves.

I think it just got picked up because we started using it after it appeared in our GPS units and EFBs. Browse here on POA. How many airport IDs do you see here which do not include the K? We're in a world where it is used all the time. We flight plan with it, input clearances into an FMS with it. For those who became pilots after the K came into the mainstream, they just think it's the right way to identify an airport. I'm not teaching student pilots but I'd say that when I do a training cross country with a pilot, at least 75% use the K when calling for flight following. (And yes, I correct it).
 
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midlifeflyer said:
Teaching it? Beats me. Same folks who are teaching "any traffic please advise, " "last call," and "position checks." Or CFIs who got used to using it and don't know any better themselves.

I think it just got picked up because we started using it after it appeared in our GPS units and EFBs. Browse here on POA. How many airport IDs do you see here which do not include the K? We're in a world where it is used all the time. We flight plan with it, input clearances into an FMS with it. For those who became pilots after the K came into the mainstream, they just think it's the right way to identify an airport. I'm not teaching student pilots but I'd say that when I do a training cross country with a pilot, at least 75% use the K when falling for flight following. (And yes, I correct it).
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I didn’t know flight following was something you got conned into, but if they fall for it, we’ll so be it….:rofl::goofy:
 
“Last call”…no way! Podunk traffic, Seeee ya!
 
luvflyin said:
Gotcha. @Pilawt , you’ve come up with some pretty old Charts before. Do you remember any 3 letter ID’s starting with K?
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I don't remember any three-letter airport or navaid identifiers beginning with 'K' (or 'W', for that matter) before the 1990s. Historically, 'K' and 'W' as beginning letters were not used in identifiers because of confusion with broadcast stations. Now 'K' identifiers are being assigned, and there's a relatively recent one in your neighborhood, KLS (Kelso WA). Three-letter identifiers starting with 'N' are still reserved for USN/USMC facilities.

To make things worse, some weather databases arbitrarily add the ICAO 'K' prefix to three- or four-character alphanumeric identifiers, e.g., KE63.

Pour yourself a stiff drink and try to make sense of The Official Word from the Horse's Mouth (FAAO 7350.7): https://tfmlearning.faa.gov/publications/atpubs/LID/0102.htm
 
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Pilawt said:
I don't remember any three-letter airport or navaid identifiers beginning with 'K' (or 'W', for that matter) before the 1990s. Historically, 'K' and 'W' as beginning letters were not used in identifiers because of confusion with broadcast stations. Now 'K' identifiers are being assigned, and there's a relatively recent one in your neighborhood, KLS (Kelso WA). Three-letter identifiers starting with 'N' are still reserved for USN/USMC facilities.

To make things worse, some weather databases arbitrarily add the ICAO 'K' prefix to three- or four-character alphanumeric identifiers, e.g., KE63.

Pour yourself a stiff drink and try to make sense of The Official Word from the Horse's Mouth (FAAO 7350.7): https://tfmlearning.faa.gov/publications/atpubs/LID/0102.htm
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Slappin’ self upside the head. Of course Kelso. I need a stiff drink to drown my sorrows for being a stoopid sheet. Anyway, thanks for taking the time to look up the directive about this.
 
From FAA Publication 7350.7Y LOCATION IDENTIFIERS Effective 11/23/06 (emphases added):

1-2-7 Assignment System​

a. Three-letter identifiers are assigned as radio call signs to aeronautical navigation aids; to airports with a manned air traffic control facility or navigational aid within airport boundary; to airports that receive scheduled route air carrier or military airlift service, and to airports designated by the U.S. Customs Service as Airports of Entry. Some of these identifiers are assigned to certain aviation weather reporting stations.

[...]

c. Most one-number, two-letter identifiers have been assigned to aviation weather reporting and observation stations and special-use locations. Some of these identifiers may be assigned to public-use landing facilities within the United States and its jurisdictions, which do not meet the requirements for identifiers in the three-letter series. In this identifier series, the number is always in the first position of the three-character combination.

d. Most one-letter, two-number identifiers are assigned to public-use landing facilities within the United States and its jurisdictions, which do not meet the requirements for identifiers in the three-letter series. Some of these identifiers are also assigned to aviation weather reporting stations.

1. One-letter, two-number identifiers are keyed by the alphabetical letter. The letter may appear in the first, middle or last position in the combination of three characters. When the letter signifies an Air Traffic Control Center's area, the assignment will not change if the Center's boundaries are realigned.

2. Identifiers in this series, which could conflict with the ''Victor'',''Jet'' or colored airway numbers are not assigned.

e. Two-letter, two-number identifiers are assigned to private-use landing facilities in the United States and its jurisdictions which do not meet the requirements for three-character assignments. They are keyed by the two-letter Post Office or supplemental abbreviation (listed below) of the state with which they are associated. The two letter code appears in the first two, middle, or last two positions of the four character code.

[...]

1-4-1 Use of Location Identifiers

An international location indicator is a four-letter code used in international telecommunications. The location indicator for airports in the contiguous United States is the three-letter identifier preceded by "K". For other non-contiguous United States airports, the following two letter prefix will be used:
Alaska - PA, PF, PO, PP
Hawaii - PH
Puerto Rico - TJ
Virgin Islands - TI
(See ICAO Document 7910 for listings.)​
 
midlifeflyer said:
Teaching it? Beats me. Same folks who are teaching "any traffic please advise, " "last call," and "position checks." Or CFIs who got used to using it and don't know any better themselves.

I think it just got picked up because we started using it after it appeared in our GPS units and EFBs. Browse here on POA. How many airport IDs do you see here which do not include the K? We're in a world where it is used all the time. We flight plan with it, input clearances into an FMS with it. For those who became pilots after the K came into the mainstream, they just think it's the right way to identify an airport. I'm not teaching student pilots but I'd say that when I do a training cross country with a pilot, at least 75% use the K when calling for flight following. (And yes, I correct it).
Click to expand...

Yeah, another bad habit attributable to inbreeding of CFIs along with the others you mentioned--regardless of whether they are actively teaching it that way or just not teaching the right way. I can think of a list of reasons why adding the K is dumb but I won't enumerate here as there are already enough listed in the thread.
 
Pilawt said:
I don't remember any three-letter airport or navaid identifiers beginning with 'K' (or 'W', for that matter) before the 1990s. Historically, 'K' and 'W' as beginning letters were not used in identifiers because of confusion with broadcast stations....
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I suspect that WVI has had that designator longer than that.
 
midlifeflyer said:
I have heard a number of controllers say, "Please don't include that first KILO when giving us an identifier." (I once actually got complimented for not using it. No big deal - I learned before GPS and never picked up the habit.)

If I understand correctly, the way their systems work, it leads to errors or the need for repeated input. I suspect they know the airport is in the lower 48 without it.
Click to expand...

That's the first I've heard that. One reason for the "K" is that there are VORs with the same three letters but not the "K" (e.g., Palmdale; airport KPMD, VOR PMD). So if one were to give the routing to a controller (as I did, mentioning SUNOL), one would have to include the "K" to refer to the airport but leave it off to indicate the VOR. Having said that, it would usually be clear from the conversation which is meant, so I can understand that if their systems don't work to include the "K", it could be annoying if we do include it.

Re other posts in this discussion, not all airports start with "K". For example, I often fly to 63S. I have never seen that written K63S nor does it occur in the GPS database as K63S. There are lots of little airports (in my area, at least), with those kinds of designators (1S6, S72, S82, etc. etc.)
 
judypilot said:
That's the first I've heard that. One reason for the "K" is that there are VORs with the same three letters but not the "K" (e.g., Palmdale; airport KPMD, VOR PMD). So if one were to give the routing to a controller (as I did, mentioning SUNOL), one would have to include the "K" to refer to the airport but leave it off to indicate the VOR. Having said that, it would usually be clear from the conversation which is meant, so I can understand that if their systems don't work to include the "K", it could be annoying if we do include it.
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That's exactly the point. We need the K in a database so the software knows whether it's the NAVAID or the airport. But when we ask for flight following its a conversation where there is context. Using your Palmdale example, do you think it matters whether you mean VFR flight following to the airport or the VOR in the unlikely case that the context didn't clarify it completely? (Plus, some years back. the FAA began changing IDs so that the airport and the navaid would be different unless they were very close, avoiding some of those issues.).

Me, I have never used the leading K when talking with ATC. In fact, I often don't even give the identifier when asking for flight following to somewhere in the local area. I figure they know the airport and will ask for the ID if they don't. (I actually got a compliment on the video for not saying "K" :D)

Funny - I did a flight up the Hudson recently . Two different NY controllers asked me what planned to do. To the first, I said, "continuing northeast to Bradley." "Bradley?" came the response. "Bravo Delta Lima," I replied. To the second, I said, "Bravo Delta Lima." He misheard, "Bravo Hotel Lima?." I said, "Bradley International." "Bradley. OK."
 
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judypilot said:
Re other posts in this discussion, not all airports start with "K". For example, I often fly to 63S. I have never seen that written K63S nor does it occur in the GPS database as K63S. There are lots of little airports (in my area, at least), with those kinds of designators (1S6, S72, S82, etc. etc.)
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The National Weather Service's Aviation Weather Center requires a "K" in front of everything. For example:

K63S 222015Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM CLR 25/10 A3010 RMK A01
No METAR found for 63S

https://www.aviationweather.gov/metar/data?ids=K63S+63S&format=raw&date=&hours=0
 
judypilot said:
And now I have. But I've never seen it in any kind of FAA publication. OK, now go find some obscure FAA pub where it's used. :rolleyes::D
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The K is an artifact of how the NWS works and manages and publishes data, and as far as I know, K63S wouldn't be recognized by the FAA, IATA, ICAO, or any other governing body, so K63S isn't a real airport code. Just like KNYC isn't a real airport code (nor is it an airport) ;)

KNYC 241951Z AUTO 00000KT 10SM SCT070 32/13 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP136 T03170128 RTX FIBI
 
dmspilot said:
The K is an artifact of how the NWS works and manages and publishes data, and as far as I know, K63S wouldn't be recognized by the FAA, IATA, ICAO, or any other governing body...
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Except for those annoying ICE guys... they put K in front of every airport identifier, and fuss if you don't also. :-(

Paul
 
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