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joycem137

joycem137

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Apr 2, 2013
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199
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Novi, MI
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Robin
As I've been doing my transition training into my very own PA-32-300, I have been STRUGGLING with landings. They keep getting better as I work with my instructor, but I'm 12 hours and about 20 landings in, and all but 2 of them have been bouncey as heck.

It's probably a result of the fact that in the past 3 years, I've done only 30 some hours of flying that wasn't part of this transition training, alongside the fact that in my 200+ hours of flying, almost all of it was in the Cessna 172.

My instructor is trying to figure out how to communicate what I need to do. I'm probably coming in too fast, dropping too quickly, pulling back too much/too little. We're working on figuring it out, but still aren't 100% sure what's up.

I'm crossing the airport threshold between 80 and 85 knots, with full flaps. I flare, and then either balloon, or slam onto the runway, bouncing back up into the air. Which either results in a go around or working the plane back down to the ground... I also sort of... freeze right as I get down to the ground and start the flare... Which is probably another problem that is happening.

I'll be flying again tonight with my instructor, but if any of you have any ideas/tips, I'd love to hear them! Besides just "practice practice practice" with my instructor. :) :)
 
Try rounding out lower, and ease the power off as you flare. Be right on your speed on final. No faster. Almost have to fly the PA32s on the pavement.
 
I think you are just too fast along with an unfamiliar sight picture causing you to flare too high. I am sure you have heard this before, but try to NOT land, with the power to idle, just let it settle while keeping your proper sight picture.
 
12 hours isn’t much yet. They’ll come.

Think about the flare as transitioning to slow flight, level, about three feet above the runway. Then transition to a power off stall as you touch down. It’s not a flare. It’s a transition to slow flight. And it’s not landing, it’s transitioning to a power off stall with a runway underneath you.

The approach is just a trimmed constant rate descent.

That mental trick will both make you get your airspeed right before you get there (harder to transition to slow flight when you’re ten knots fast!) and also trick your brain into not focusing too much on the landing.

All three of those things should be mastered in the practice area ahead of time.
 
Bounce Bounce Bounce...all the way to grandmas house.
 
Try a new approach.
I read about this approach adjust to a new site picture, have never tried so discuss with your CFI.
Go to an airport with a long runway.
Do an approach to land, but do not land. Fly about five feet above the runway almost the full length. Go missed.
Do this a few times until you come down to just a foot above the runway.
Now, once comfortable when you come in to land, at one foot above the runway, pull the engine to idle and try to maintain the one height by pulling back on the yoke gently till you are about five degrees nose up. This is now your flare. And let the plane settle in to land.

As you get used to the site picture doing this, you can become more aggressive in the flare, come in faster/slower, basically adjust to get more performance from the plane.

Tim
 
tspear said:
Try a new approach.
I read about this approach adjust to a new site picture, have never tried so discuss with your CFI.
Go to an airport with a long runway.
Do an approach to land, but do not land. Fly about five feet above the runway almost the full length. Go missed.
Do this a few times until you come down to just a foot above the runway.
Now, once comfortable when you come in to land, at one foot above the runway, pull the engine to idle and try to maintain the one height by pulling back on the yoke gently till you are about five degrees nose up. This is now your flare. And let the plane settle in to land.

As you get used to the site picture doing this, you can become more aggressive in the flare, come in faster/slower, basically adjust to get more performance from the plane.

Tim
Click to expand...

Not new Tim, that technique/training been around a looong time.
 
Just keep after it, things happen when they happen. Relax, getting tense will only make it worse. Sit in the aircraft for awhile and look carefully at the sight picture. That's what it should look like on landing. Like the guys said, try and hit your speed on final. If you're a bit fast it shouldn't really hurt anything unless you try to flair too high. Just get into ground effect and hold it off. If you're fast the aircraft will bleed speed quickly. Just keep holding it off.

Like I said, relax. This isn't a race, it takes as long as it takes.
 
mscard88 said:
Try rounding out lower, and ease the power off as you flare.
Click to expand...
tspear said:
Now, once comfortable when you come in to land, at one foot above the runway, pull the engine to idle and try to maintain the one height by pulling back on the yoke gently till you are about five degrees nose up. This is now your flare. And let the plane settle in to land.
Click to expand...

Both of these are what helped me get my landings much smoother.
I was rounding out too high, and cutting power too quick...which was all at the advice of two CFI's.
Finally, I just held off the round out, then left about 14-1500 rpm in across the threshold, once I got the ground effect down real low, I pulled the power and 'whoa horsie'd' it gently till the tires squeaked at me.
It's pretty consistent without too much crosswind, but even then, the extra power is nice. (power not speed).
Not the best approach for short field maneuvers, but when I just want to land soft, it works well for me.
Hang in there....I'm jealous of your plane :)
 
Just a question, but how is your pitch trim in the flare? Are you holding a lot of back pressure to get the nose up? I've heard the PA32s have a tendency to get nose heavy, plus they sit fairly nose high on the ground all together, so it can take a fair amount of elevator to get the nose up. A little trim could help...giggity.
 
I don't recall ever using full flaps in the lance. one notch. and you can't just chop power like in a Cherokee, gotta keep a touch of power into the roundout, later than you normally would. also, if I recall, since the longer nose, the site picture was different, as in you couldn't see jack sh@# in front of you. try one notch, no faster than 80, and keep a smidge of power in. yup, a smidge.

EDIT: FYI, I was flying a t-tail lance
 
Mike Smith said:
I think you are just too fast along with an unfamiliar sight picture causing you to flare too high.
Click to expand...

This is my suspicion as well. The PA32 has a much longer nose than most light single engine airplanes and it can take a while to get accustomed to the sight picture. It doesn't help matters if the approach speed is too fast too.

Joyce, there is one thing I'm a bit perplexed about. It would seem to me that if you have 12 hours of transition training you would have more than 20 landings, particularly if this is an area you're struggling with. I'd ask the instructor to spend a lesson working solely on takeoffs and landings. By the end of the lesson I'd bet that things will improve a lot. You will continue to improve as you accumulate more flight experience with the type too.
 
Practice stalls with partial power and 20 degrees flaps until you hear the horn. Keep the wings level and the nose continuously rising at a SLOW constant rate. This will help you get the "feel" of the back pressure in the flair.
 
mondtster said:
It would seem to me that if you have 12 hours of transition training you would have more than 20 landings, particularly if this is an area you're struggling with. I'd ask the instructor to spend a lesson working solely on takeoffs and landings. By the end of the lesson I'd bet that things will improve a lot. You will continue to improve as you accumulate more flight experience with the type too.
Click to expand...

We've also been doing other things, like engine management, slow flight, stalls, steep turns, unusual attitudes, and other stuff... I am doing a BFR, HP endorsement, checkout, and whatnot all at once.

Also, 20 was an estimate. Looking at my logbook, it's actually 26. And we aren't doing touch-and-goes.
 
Dumb question: I this a case where a pilot can practice soft fields first (some power in during landing) and then work back to a standard landing with no power and stall to land. That should give a bit more time for the sight picture to register and kind of slow everything down a bit. Just asking :oops:
 
I found the transition from high wing to low wing to be a challange at first but loved it. Ultimately found it easier to land as you needed to really fly it to the numbers. The extra speed is the killer in my youth that’s what causes me to bounce them. Got work getting slower before you settle into the actual landing. Now that I’m back in a high wing and matured as a pilot I have learned how to get slower...at least most of the time
 
benyflyguy said:
I found the transition from high wing to low wing to be a challange at first but loved it. Ultimately found it easier to land as you needed to really fly it to the numbers. The extra speed is the killer in my youth that’s what causes me to bounce them. Got work getting slower before you settle into the actual landing. Now that I’m back in a high wing and matured as a pilot I have learned how to get slower...at least most of the time
Click to expand...

I'm definitely enjoying the low wing better than the high wing. It's a challenge, but I'm working through it. :) . I see now why so many insurance plans wanted me to have 25 hours before they would insure me flying...
 
Sinistar said:
Dumb question: I this a case where a pilot can practice soft fields first (some power in during landing) and then work back to a standard landing with no power and stall to land. That should give a bit more time for the sight picture to register and kind of slow everything down a bit. Just asking :oops:
Click to expand...

Sure. Doesn’t really even have to be a soft field technique. Just find a reeeeealy long runway and get permission if it’s a controlled field to make a long landing.

Then have the student set up to fly down to the numbers and then fly along slowing down at three feet, then two, then one...

They’ll usually touch down long before they expect to, because the basic building block that’s missing is the controls become less effective as you slow.

Those who say “pull back at a continuous slow rate” are slightly wrong in this regard. If you get reeeeeealy slow the rate and amount of elevator force you think you’re using actually feels higher toward the end.

The rate MIGHT be about the same as you started the pull, but it likely accelerates a touch toward the very end and the elevator pressure getting higher will trick your brain into thinking you’re pulling faster.

You’re really pulling slightly harder and maybe a tad faster, but your brain doesn’t have time to figure that out quite yet at that stage of learning.

Gross motor skills vs fine motor skills. If you’re tense and the instructor hasn’t gotten you to relax, it’ll be bouncy and lead to frustration. Just like any athletic motion.

Can’t throw a baseball accurately to the waiting glove at first base the first time you pick up a baseball. Maybe not even the hundredth time. Not until you have figured out the gross motor skill from the arms and the fine motor skills in the wrist.

Almost nobody is a Golden Glove shortstop on their first week on the field.

All us coaches can do is encourage and say “try again”. Feel the forces.

Be the ball, grasshopper. Haha.

But yes. One way to prolong the landing and play with the forces involved that’s relatively safe, is to find a nice long runway and land waaaaaaaaay down it.

Please pick a landing spot where a go-around doesn’t have your butt puckering because the trees off the end are way too close for comfort. :)

Asking for a long landing a full stop taxi back also gives more time for quick debrief while taxiing and time for the student’s brain to catch up to what happened and what they felt in the yoke and pedals 120 seconds ago. :)

At least out here in the West, there’s all sorts of runways that are 10,000’ long. We already know we need less than 3,000’, so planning to land 5,000’ down one of those, isn’t really a problem.

Tell most young instructors to do full stop landings and taxi backs and twenty people here online or anywhere else online will scream and holler that you’re wasting the student’s time and money and all that crap, too. Yes a taxi back costs anywhere from $10-$20. Bummer. Such is life.

The ubiquitous and ever present Touch and Go isn’t always the best training choice. Just depends on what the student needs. We don’t do touch and goes in the twin usually and rarely until the very end of training... stuff can go wrong in a big hurry. Costs a lot more in the twin, too, if that makes any single engine students feel a little better about doing one in their airplane. :)

The proof may just be in the pudding on this one, if someone will slow down and have the patience to teach it slow enough for a particular student to truly grasp it, they’ll usually end up very good at landings.

Landings that lead to a full stop give time to teach control positioning for crosswinds, tend to feel a lot less like a mad rush for new students, and generally are an excellent tool for students who have hit a plateau. Even work well for fully certificated pilots who’ve gotten rusty and want a little more time to think about each approach and landing.
 
Quick note:

My observation is when someone claims keeping power in during the landing makes it easier, it really means they never really acquired the skills required to land power off consistently. With perhaps some exceptions.

And beware the Law of Primacy. It can be very difficult to unlearn things initially learned.
 
FastEddieB said:
Quick note:

My observation is when someone claims keeping power in during the landing makes it easier, it really means they never really learned the skills required to land power off consistently. With perhaps some exceptions....
Click to expand...

I have to completely disagree with your observation.
 
joycem137 said:
I'm crossing the airport threshold between 80 and 85 knots, with full flaps.
Click to expand...

In the Lance, I'm 75 knots over the fence with full flaps. If higher than 75, I'm floating longer...
 
eman1200 said:
I have to completely disagree with your observation.
Click to expand...

But we can agree healthy debate is healthy!

I have a decent amount of experience helping pilots of all levels with landings issues.

If your short final approach and landing are at idle, there are basically 3 balls that have to be juggled:

1) Judging height above the runway,

2) Maintaining the centerline with aileron, and,

3) Maintaining alignment with rudder.

Adding a 4th ball, power management, to the mix has the potential to overload a struggling pilot. Since in most small GA planes* they can approach and land just fine with the power at idle, it seems to me to be unneeded busywork at a time it’s least needed. I aim to have the power at idle by about 100’ as a rule, if not sooner.

Plus, the pilot will need to learn a new skill if going for Commercial, and may be in slightly unfamiliar territory in a real emergency landing.

*Loaded at or near the front CG limit, I’ve used power in the flare in Cherokee 6’s and their offspring, Cessna 210’s and similar, and Apaches and Aztecs. And probably a few others. While they will touch down just fine at idle, the nose can drop pretty hard soon after without a touch of power.
 
In that airplane if you can see the runway in the flair you haven’t flaired enough. I would try slowing down, be sure you are looking at an object out past the end of the runway and flair more.
 
I was taught power on landing depends on the plane. Some "require" it for a smooth landing.
Others do not.
So you probably should clarify what plane you are discussing... :D

Tim
 
FastEddieB said:
Quick note:

My observation is when someone claims keeping power in during the landing makes it easier, it really means they never really acquired the skills required to land power off consistently. With perhaps some exceptions...
Click to expand...

FastEddieB said:
...*Loaded at or near the front CG limit, I’ve used power in the flare in Cherokee 6’s and their offspring, Cessna 210’s and similar, and Apaches and Aztecs. And probably a few others. While they will touch down just fine at idle, the nose can drop pretty hard soon after without a touch of power.
Click to expand...

so I partially take back my disagreement. YOU are the only one who stated LANDING with power, so yes, I'll agree that would not be a good recommendation. I, however, stated "keep a touch of power into the roundout", which is not the same, and I stand by that recommendation in the lance, specifically, as I mentioned, the t-tail. besides, you fly a kite with a CPU cooling fan for a prop so I have no idea what to recommend for that. :)
 
tspear said:
I was taught power on landing depends on the plane. Some "require" it for a smooth landing.
Others do not.
So you probably should clarify what plane you are discussing... :D

Tim
Click to expand...
Very true.

I typically land the Cherokee at idle with no issues.

The Cardinal on the other hand does like just a bit a power to land nice and soft and i've had other 68' drivers tell me the same thing. It'll land soft at idle too, but not as easily and i'm not nearly as consistent as I am with a little power.
 
I understand the good natured tone of your post.

I also landed my Tiger and Cirrus with the power back at idle early in the process. That may or may not work well with a Cirrus with a composite prop, or so I’ve heard.

Power into the roundout and flare is certainly a valid technique. Leaving us without very much to argue about!

But I’ve heard many pilots extol actually landing - ie touching down - with power in Flight Design CTs and the like. There, I really don’t see the need.
 
eman1200 said:
lol what, I admitted to my lack of knowledge in his plane type....
Click to expand...

Kickin’ the man while he’s down on surgery day and probably full of nice pain killers. LOL. :)

I’m sure he doesn’t quite need a safe space or a participation trophy but dude... Hahahaha.
 
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