Bo vs. Arrow

Rgbeard

Rgbeard

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rgbeard
I'm sure this has been hashed out elsewhere.

I've been a rental pilot all my life, and now my situation has me looking at ownership. I'm thinking about a V-35. Due to the basic unavailability of these planes in the rental fleet, I've never flown one, but their owners seem to be a happy lot.

It's myself, my wife, and two small dogs (pugs).

We just finished a trip to Norcal from AZ in a rented Piper Arrow.

My wife said to me: "I wouldn't mind having more room." But we don't really want to do a Cherokee 6. (Rented those a lot, and they have their pluses and minuses in our mind.)

How's the interior room in a Bonanza 35 compare to an Arrow?
What's the typical cost of an annual inspection?
I'm looking at "P" or later.
 
V35 nice planes, faster than Arrows, and a little bit more room. You'll like it. But Arrows aren't shabby either and cheaper.

Plus it's not a Mooney like @eman1200 says he doesn't own, yeah I'd go with the Bo.
 
bo vs arrow.......teeheehee

stolen from da internets:

Aircraft Cabin Width Cabin Height
Mooney 201 43.5″ 44.5″
V35 Bonanza 42.0″ 50.0″
Cessna 182 42.0″ 48.0″
Piper Arrow 41.0″ 45.0″

but if its for yer wife, try to find a bo for her to sit in. numbers don't mean squat to a woman.
 
Beechcraft made a lot of Bo's. There should be some on your corner of the planet. There are probably some at your home airport. Check around, go sit in one. Have your significant other sit in one. Check your wallet though, a Bo is more complex, and will cost more to acquire and operate than an Arrow.
 
I was partners in a 182, my partner also owned an Arrow. I felt very cramped in the Arrow, even more so after flying in the 182. My partner always commented on how HUGE the 182 was inside. Fast forward..... we sold the 182 and I bought a Bonanza J35. It is smaller than the 182 inside for sure, but feels MUCH larger than the Arrow. My ex-partner agrees. The best advice is to go sit in both and fly both, take your wife with you since her opinion will matter more than yours :)

I have only had one annual thus far and it was 2k to cover the inspection and several discrepancies.
 
Want a lycoming engine or a continental? Want more power or better economy? Which feels better to you?
 
Do you value "control feel?" The Bonanza is much better than the Arrow, and light years better than the truck like control feel of a Mooney.
 
One thing I will say for Bonanzas over the Arrow, having flown both Arrows and a Debonair, is the trailing link gear makes for some very smooth landings.. When I am flying the Deb, I barely know that the mains have touched... The arrow OTOH it's plain to feel that i've landed
 
When we were shopping for a retract, it was the Bo’s big windows that sold Mrs. P. They made the cabin seem much more open and spacious than the Comanche (which is significantly wider) or the Mooney. We had been spoiled by our Cheetah’s wonderful visibility. Comanche and Mooney windows were much smaller and made their cabins feel dark and cramped by comparison.

The “cabin width” numbers usually tossed around in these discussions are measured at the elbow. But most low-wing cabins curve inward as you go up from elbow level. Cabin width at eye level is seldom listed but is more important in judging how spacious a cabin feels. That’s why a bug-eyed Grumman-American Cheetah or Tiger, though narrower than a PA-28 at the elbow, feels more spacious.
 
Both are nice....the Bo is a little nicer and faster and beefier and has to be the easiest to land.

My only con with the older Bo's they can get specialized and parts are "harder" to find....but they are findable....just more difficult.

I like the Bo....but miss my Lycoming. :(
 
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Bo. Faster, flies nicer. Both are complex and will have similar maintenance costs provided you don't buy a neglected one.
 
As far as annual costs, it all depends..... When I bought my plane it was well maintained but there were some unknown "time in service" parts. I chose to rebuild the fuel selector, flap motor and alternator to have a new baseline. I will do the same at some point with the gear motor even though it works perfectly. Once you know and are comfortable with the baseline, annuals should not be painful. Watch any engines affected by the recent cylinder AD's. If you can find a V35 with a 550, you will really travel. Make sure you have and know how to use a good engine monitor.

Also, join the American Bonanza Society and use their training, both online and actual.

https://www.bonanza.org/

Great community here:

https://www.beechtalk.com/forums/
 
eman1200 said:
but if its for yer wife, try to find a bo for her to sit in. numbers don't mean squat to a woman.
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That's the answer and not just for women. Most will have decent room but width isn't everything. A PiperSport is wider than an A36 Bonanza but that doesn't mean the 2-seat LSA is a more comfortable and better traveling airplane for longer distances.
 
frfly172 said:
I like the Bo untill it comes time to buy parts.
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The only parts you should be required to buy are the ones you bend, and then the insurance company buys em.
Your engine parts should be price as any other model that uses that engine.
 
I'm asking,,,,,, What ever happened to the Elevon flutter issues, Last I heard they were a really critical balance issues, they would flip-flop about twice and leave.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm asking,,,,,, What ever happened to the Elevon flutter issues, Last I heard they were a really critical balance issues, they would flip-flop about twice and leave.
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you stopped working on them.............HIYOOOOOOOOOooooooo jUsT kIdDInG , chill, jk.
 
eman1200 said:
you stopped working on them.
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A long time ago. When they had problems with spar cracking, flight controls falling off, I figured it was too great of a risk.
 
I'm not one who drank the bo kool aide, but a V tail is a impressive plane.

I wouldn't so much look at arrow, but maybe go check out a PA24 vs the V tail, that would be a much closer match as the PA24 has a grown up wing and also a little more room at the sacrifice of a little speed.



Tom-D said:
I'm asking,,,,,, What ever happened to the Elevon flutter issues, Last I heard they were a really critical balance issues, they would flip-flop about twice and leave.
Click to expand...

Like I said, not a Bo expert, but this sounds more like a PIC or A&P failure than a airframe problem.
 
I would suggest that when buying any Bonanza the buyer verify every AD is properly complied with and signed off correctly. The list is long and complicated as per S/N and is often screwed up.
 
Not much of a contest. You’ll look much cooler, be more comfortable and enjoy flying a Bo far more than an Arrow.
 
eman1200 said:
bo vs arrow.......teeheehee

stolen from da internets:

Aircraft Cabin Width Cabin Height
Mooney 201 43.5″ 44.5″
V35 Bonanza 42.0″ 50.0″
Cessna 182 42.0″ 48.0″
Piper Arrow 41.0″ 45.0″

but if its for yer wife, try to find a bo for her to sit in. numbers don't mean squat to a woman.
Click to expand...

Comanche is 46 inch width. ;)
 
Arrow is 42 inches not 41.

Good topic, we're in the middle of that dilemma ourselves, and I own an Arrow. At any rate, comparing the arrow to the 260-285HP offerings is silly. You gotta compare apples to apples, aka a Comanche, as has been stated before. None of this matters, the question was pertaining to comfort. PA24 guys will defend them, BE33/35 guys will defend them, but fact remains you are not going to get significant comfort improvement from the Arrow with either option imo. You're going to go faster and expend a good clip more in airframe mx (both more expensive than the PA-28(R) variants, more expensive gear systems, have bladders, the beech having conti cylinders too).

If you're wanting significant comfort improvements you're looking at the airplane you wrote off in your first post, a 49 inch wide PA-32 and variants (PA-32R, PA-34 et al). May I also suggest a C-177RG Cardinal. 48 inch cabin in otherwise a small enough offering both in engine economy and external dimensions. For all practical purposes equivalent performance numbers as the Arrow.

If it makes you feel better we're on the same boat. But I'm going the unusual route of looking into twins in order to satisfy our comfort upgrade. Dumb I know, but this is driven more by the fact I don't think six300/Lances are worth what they're asking, don't need the useful but want the climb rate, and otherwise have the flight time experience to get into piston twins for insurance and training costs ($0) money that low-time buyers of HP singles can't, thus can't bid up the price on twins the way they can on Sixes and Lances. The idiocy of a big draggy twin somewhat pencils out when you consider I can basically straight trade my cosmetically unsightly but WAAS/AP equipped Arrow for a 180 or 160 hp geronimo mod apache with non-AD props (the one biggie) and the same avionics. Can't touch an equivalent avionics Lance for triple that, so it works for me. Whenever I feel I'm making a mistake (which is often these days), I remind myself @Fearless Tower answered this same question by getting into a Beech 18! Makes me look rational by comparison.

P.S. Nothing but love for @Fearless Tower , pimpin' ain't easy, but if you gotta do it it's gotta be in a 1940s pimp wagon sporting radials! :D:D
 
Tom-D said:
I'm asking,,,,,, What ever happened to the Elevon flutter issues, Last I heard they were a really critical balance issues, they would flip-flop about twice and leave.
Click to expand...
I suspect that it was mostly VFR pilots flying into IMC with the predictable outcome. Remember, when the Bo came out in '47 there wasn't the airspace system we have now, and most flight was done VFR. But the Bonanza could still do well north of 150 knots, and at those speeds you run into weather. I doubt the Bo is unlike any other aircraft, loose spatial orientation and you'll over stress the airplane, and parts start flying off.
 
hindsight2020 said:
but fact remains you are not going to get significant comfort improvement from the Arrow with either option imo.
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I respectfully disagree. My wife and I are crammed in a Warrior/Archer/Arrow, but are very comfortable in the Comanche. I would suspect the Bonanza to be much better than the PA28 as well. Now if we had the money, we all know Cirrus are comfortable.
 
midwestpa24 said:
I respectfully disagree. My wife and I are crammed in a Warrior/Archer/Arrow, but are very comfortable in the Comanche. I would suspect the Bonanza to be much better than the PA28 as well. Now if we had the money, we all know Cirrus are comfortable.
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No harm no foul, takes all kinds. For us it's not enough of a difference to trade airplanes betweeen those two. Ditto for the Bo.

Now, it bears making a distinction between pre-66 Comanches and those post-66 here. The reason is actually important for a family mission. 2+bag mission? Nah. But a rear seat-centric mission? Heck yeah. The resale prices reflect that. So when I was looking into them for a potential upgrade I parked my Arrow next to a 24-250 and took a no-kidding tape measure to both. Cabin width, as fragged, the comanche was indeed 45 inches and thus wider than the Arrow. That's never been disputed. But the surprise came in the back seat. The bench seat comanche has LESS leg room (tailbone to tailbone as seated) than the stretch PA-28. The wife sat down and gave me one look and pointed at the car seat and I knew right then. No-go.

This problem disappeared in 1966 when they got smart and went individual seats in the comanche (PA-260, then 260B then C) and the tailbone of the seat went back much further. The other no-go for us was the sealed bag compartment of the bench seat Cos. The official reason Piper did that of course was to sell the 5th and then 6th seat in the B model, but in practice it merely opened up the volumetrics of the luggage compartment to be more family friendly and flexible. Which again, for a mission that actually cares more about the middle row than any other place in the airplane, is a rather important inflection point.

I will say, if the OP doesn't care about the back seat, the 250 offers the most bang for the buck imo, and certainly more comfortable in the front than any PA-28.
 
Tom-D said:
I'm asking,,,,,, What ever happened to the Elevon flutter issues, Last I heard they were a really critical balance issues, they would flip-flop about twice and leave.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you know the answer to this. At some point Beech lengthened the chord on the ruddervator which left more unsupported structure forward of the spar. At high speeds (most were VMC into IMC with loss of control) a big pull on the yoke caused several tail failures. Beech took too long to address this but ultimately a simple solution with a cuff was used. Every Bo currently airworthy has long been fixed. I don't think there has been a failure since. Several overspeed incidents resulting in-flight breakups have shown the wings departing before the tail. Bo is certified in the Utility category for a good reason.
 
steingar said:
I suspect that it was mostly VFR pilots flying into IMC with the predictable outcome. Remember, when the Bo came out in '47 there wasn't the airspace system we have now, and most flight was done VFR. But the Bonanza could still do well north of 150 knots, and at those speeds you run into weather. I doubt the Bo is unlike any other aircraft, loose spatial orientation and you'll over stress the airplane, and parts start flying off.
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I don't see the correlation between IMC and flight control flutter.
 
Glen R said:
I'm sure you know the answer to this. At some point Beech lengthened the chord on the ruddervator which left more unsupported structure forward of the spar. At high speeds (most were VMC into IMC with loss of control) a big pull on the yoke caused several tail failures. Beech took too long to address this but ultimately a simple solution with a cuff was used. Every Bo currently airworthy has long been fixed. I don't think there has been a failure since. Several overspeed incidents resulting in-flight breakups have shown the wings departing before the tail. Bo is certified in the Utility category for a good reason.
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I do not stay abreast of what is going on with Beechcraft. I asked the question because I never heard what the solution to their flutter problem.
It was long after the cuff went on they were still having problems with corrosion in the magnesium elevons, and flutter.
 
Tom-D said:
The only parts you should be required to buy are the ones you bend, and then the insurance company buys em.
Your engine parts should be price as any other model that uses that engine.
Click to expand...

Where is this magical place where the only parts we have to buy are the ones we bend?
 
There is no flutter issue unless they are not balanced properly. Only reason they would be out of balance if they were swapped or painted and no rebalance was done. Pretty basic stuff. As far as corrosion, most of the fleet is over 40 years old. If you leave them outside with peeling paint, yes, you might see corrosion. Not unlike aluminum, just a little more reactive. Feel free to provide a list of planes that have never had issues.
 
donjohnston said:
Where is this magical place where the only parts we have to buy are the ones we bend?
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It's called normal aviation, We normally don't buy airframe parts unless they are damaged.
 
donjohnston said:
Where is this magical place where the only parts we have to buy are the ones we bend?
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His point, which you missed apparently, is that most parts like engines, instruments, etc are commonly sourced. Actual airframe parts would only be needed in the event of an "event".
 
eman1200 said:
wrong.
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So a properly maintained and balanced v tail, flown within the POH guidelines, the ruddervators are just going to fly off all of a sudden?

Not buying it.
 
James331 said:
So a properly maintained and balanced v tail, flown within the POH guidelines, the ruddervators are just going to fly off all of a sudden?

Not buying it.
Click to expand...

You got that from my one word response? Wow, well done! Yeah, that’s exactly what I said.
 
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