"Bluebonnet Belle" crash in Burnet,Tx

Looks like the left main went off into the weeds on the TO roll, then the pilot got twitchy and yanked 'er off before it was flyin' time. Immediately thereafter, it was made known that flyin' time had most certainly not arrived. Sad. Glad to hear no fatalities. Could have been a stuck brake or a soft tire, etc. No accusations here.
 
Unfortunate accident,luckily all survived.
 
One in bad condition with burns being reported...
 
Lachlan said:
Looks like the left main went off into the weeds on the TO roll, then the pilot got twitchy and yanked 'er off before it was flyin' time. Immediately thereafter, it was made known that flyin' time had most certainly not arrived. Sad. Glad to hear no fatalities. Could have been a stuck brake or a soft tire, etc. No accusations here.
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I’m no expert, but I do have 10 hours in a couple DC-3s.

Everything about that takeoff looked wrong.

First off, the tail never really came up. In a typical DC-3 takeoff you’d see the tail come up fairly early in the takeoff roll. Then you accelerate to V1 with the fuselage parallel to the runway. But that never happened in the video. You see some pretty significant rudder deflections and at the point where the left wing starts to come up, the elevator is full up.

Very strange video. I don’t know what was going on in the cockpit, but they were definitely having some directional control issues throughout that takeoff roll.
 
I wonder if they forgot to lock the tailwheel? Is that possible? Wild wild guess.
 
Lachlan said:
I wonder if they forgot to lock the tailwheel? Is that possible? Wild wild guess.
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It’s possible. In the Beech 18, it’s my biggest fear.

Some other possibilities are aileron gust lock left in place or relaxed aileron input by the pilot.

What I don’t understand is the full elevator deflection up while still having takeoff power applied. I don’t want to sound like I’m judging anybody, but it’s almost like they were focused on the directional control problem and then forced it into the air.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’m no expert, but I do have 10 hours in a couple DC-3s.

Everything about that takeoff looked wrong.

First off, the tail never really came up. In a typical DC-3 takeoff you’d see the tail come up fairly early in the takeoff roll. Then you accelerate to V1 with the fuselage parallel to the runway. But that never happened in the video. You see some pretty significant rudder deflections and at the point where the left wing starts to come up, the elevator is full up.

Very strange video. I don’t know what was going on in the cockpit, but they were definitely having some directional control issues throughout that takeoff roll.
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directional control issues fo sho. go to full screen mode, just before the dude says the first 'holy sht' it looks like there's some weaving going on. then u can see several full rudder inputs, back and forth. I tried to look for dirt smoke like if a tire went off the rwy but I didn't see any.
 
Saw this on ATCMemes on Facebook. Glad everybody made it out but that's sad to lose a C47. Who (if anybody) owns that type certificate? They're popular planes and they're still used for cargo. I'm surprised that some manufacturer hasn't started making them again. They're not overly complicated.
 
LoLPilot said:
Saw this on ATCMemes on Facebook. Glad everybody made it out but that's sad to lose a C47. Who (if anybody) owns that type certificate? They're popular planes and they're still used for cargo. I'm surprised that some manufacturer hasn't started making them again. They're not overly complicated.
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Type Certificate is owned by Boeing now.
 
Looks like one of those situations that things start to go south and all you can think of is just getting in the air will make all the badness go away. Dangerous thought process. Glad no serious injuries.
 
benyflyguy said:
Looks like one of those situations that things start to go south and all you can think of is just getting in the air will make all the badness go away. Dangerous thought process. Glad no serious injuries.
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Definitely a possibility. They’d have been better off running through the grass with the tail in the air to achieve flying speed first though.
 
benyflyguy said:
Looks like one of those situations that things start to go south and all you can think of is just getting in the air will make all the badness go away. Dangerous thought process. Glad no serious injuries.
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I read a blog by an airline pilot comparing the MD-80 to the 737 who actually said this! He said that if he was on a takeoff roll and something went south he wanted to have the extra power and wing area of the 737 to deal with it in the air rather than bring it to a stop on the ground. I obviously have 0 twin hours and 0 turbine hours but from a common sense perspective that seemed backwards to me.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I’m no expert, but I do have 10 hours in a couple DC-3s.

Everything about that takeoff looked wrong.

First off, the tail never really came up. In a typical DC-3 takeoff you’d see the tail come up fairly early in the takeoff roll.
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Without knowing any details of the incident, that's the first thing I looked for. It has always been my observation that a DC-3 gets up on the mains early and with authority.

The takeoff roll looked awfully anemic. It was around 110 here in Dallas today, with a full load of people and baggage density altitude may have played a part.
 
LoLPilot said:
I read a blog by an airline pilot comparing the MD-80 to the 737 who actually said this! He said that if he was on a takeoff roll and something went south he wanted to have the extra power and wing area of the 737 to deal with it in the air rather than bring it to a stop on the ground. I obviously have 0 twin hours and 0 turbine hours but from a common sense perspective that seemed backwards to me.
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That and the brakes on the Mad Dog completely SUCK!
 
3393RP said:
Without knowing any details of the incident, that's the first thing I looked for. It has always been my observation that a DC-3 gets up on the mains early and with authority.
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Surprisingly, unlike the Beech 18, you can get the tail of the DC-3 in the air and have directional control very early in the takeoff roll. I’ve seen static takeoffs (holding the brakes while applying takeoff power) where the tail comes up almost as soon as you release the brakes.
 
Fearless Tower said:
It’s possible. In the Beech 18, it’s my biggest fear.
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I’ve never flown a plane with a locking tail wheel. So it is kind of a foreign concept to me. Given the planes you fly and have flown, I am surprised to hear you say that it’s your biggest fear in the Twin Beech. Is having the tail wheel locked for the short time in the takeoff roll that it is in positive contact with the ground really that big of a deal? (My tail wheel time is in the J-3 and a little in a Great Lakes, where you can almost always just step on the rudder and keep it straight.)
 
LoLPilot said:
I read a blog by an airline pilot comparing the MD-80 to the 737 who actually said this! He said that if he was on a takeoff roll and something went south he wanted to have the extra power and wing area of the 737 to deal with it in the air rather than bring it to a stop on the ground. I obviously have 0 twin hours and 0 turbine hours but from a common sense perspective that seemed backwards to me.
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As you get into heavier airplanes, and airplanes that accelerate quite fast (turbines) an abort on the runway suddenly becomes a pretty sporty affair. People have burned jets to the ground when brakes caught fire, or have gone off the side of the runway when tires blew etc...

In the Hornet, above 100kts only 3 things are keeping you from going flying.

1 - DUAL fire lights
2 - DUAL bleed lights
3 - Inability to rotate due to flight control failure.

Note that a single engine fire we’ll take airborne and deal with once off the ground. It’s a different mindset then GA, for sure, but the abort needs to be paid the respect it’s due.
 
Did anyone see elevator movement? Locked? Post crash its still in the streamlined position.
 
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RhinoDrvr said:
As you get into heavier airplanes, and airplanes that accelerate quite fast (turbines) an abort on the runway suddenly becomes a pretty sporty affair. People have burned jets to the ground when brakes caught fire, or have gone off the side of the runway when tires blew etc...

In the Hornet, above 100kts only 3 things are keeping you from going flying.

1 - DUAL fire lights
2 - DUAL bleed lights
3 - Inability to rotate due to flight control failure.

Note that a single engine fire we’ll take airborne and deal with once off the ground. It’s a different mindset then GA, for sure, but the abort needs to be paid the respect it’s due.
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<
Yep! If I'm above 80kts I'm only aborting for loss of directional control, structural damage, loss of an engine <V1, or fire. 145 had an additional abort list of any Thrust Reverser message. That will kill you in a heartbeat if you take an open bucket into the air. CRJ-200 will also try to kill you in the winter. If you rotate faster than 3* a second with ANY frost on the wing you'll stall and snap roll back into the runway. So their fix was you must run the wing anti-ice 5 prior to takeoff anytime the temp is below 5C regardless of outside conditions. Plus rotate slower than 3* a second.
 
skyking3286 said:
Did anyone see elevator movement? Locked? Post crash its still in the streamlined position.
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There are some still photos taken from the video that show the elevator full up about the time that the left wing comes off the ground.
 
iamtheari said:
I’ve never flown a plane with a locking tail wheel. So it is kind of a foreign concept to me. Given the planes you fly and have flown, I am surprised to hear you say that it’s your biggest fear in the Twin Beech. Is having the tail wheel locked for the short time in the takeoff roll that it is in positive contact with the ground really that big of a deal? (My tail wheel time is in the J-3 and a little in a Great Lakes, where you can almost always just step on the rudder and keep it straight.)
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Let’s just say almost as many Twin Beeches have been lost on takeoff as landing. I never experienced it, but when I was getting checked out, many experienced Beech 18 guys warned me that you’re almost guaranteed to ground loop if you have it unlocked. With the heavier weight of the aircraft, you can’t let lateral deviations get as pronounced as you can in smaller tail wheels. There is a lot of momentum to fight.

Even the type of tailwheel tire can make a big difference in ground handling.
 
Not speculating as to the specific cause of this accident, but...

...I have a bunch of hours teaching tailwheel transition courses, albeit in much smaller planes.

One point I always tried to get across...

Tail firmly on the ground, you were OK - the tailwheel takes on the majority of directional control responsiblity.

Tail up, you were OK - the rudder is up in the free air where it can take on the responsibility of directional control.

In between, there be dragons. The tailwheel can’t help and the rudder is largely blanketed by the fuselage. That sure looked to me like a factor in this accident, though it could have been something else entirely.
 
I'm looking back early in the video and it appears there's some fishtailing going on around the 10 second mark. Then it become more pronounced until around the 23 second mark when it looks like the tail wheel departs the runway inducing a right roll and temporary lift off.

Performance seemed to a problem - tailwheel never got off the ground. Summer, texas...DA a potential problem?
 
bflynn said:
I'm looking back early in the video and it appears there's some fishtailing going on around the 10 second mark. Then it become more pronounced until around the 23 second mark when it looks like the tail wheel departs the runway inducing a right roll and temporary lift off.

Performance seemed to a problem - tailwheel never got off the ground. Summer, texas...DA a potential problem?
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DA will increase that takeoff roll, but it isn't going to keep the tail from coming up or cause directional control problems.

Word on the street right now is the SIC was pilot flying. I have no idea who that was or what the experience level was, but I will say that as an SIC, I almost wrecked a DC-3 once because I relaxed my aileron input in a cross wind. Airplane started to swerve in a manner very similar to that accident video. In my humbling case, the PIC was able to recover, I learned a few things and the airplane is still alive and flying today.

In my case, it happened on a 150' wide runway and we never left the pavement. The runway at Burnett is only 75' wide.

The right roll and liftoff of the left wing that you see is most likely the result of the full right rudder that is applied at that time.
 
FWIW, Burnet has a lot of shifty winds due to terrain features and building positioning. On a windy day, you need to be on your game to commandeer an aircraft toward or off the rwy.
I heard from many pilots over the years that they don't like going to Burnet for that reason.
Having said that, shifty winds could easily be just another link in the chain of events leading up to this crash.

Nonetheless, whatever the cause (physics?), I am very glad that all got out and am hoping that the one injured airman will recover fast.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Let’s just say almost as many Twin Beeches have been lost on takeoff as landing. I never experienced it, but when I was getting checked out, many experienced Beech 18 guys warned me that you’re almost guaranteed to ground loop if you have it unlocked. With the heavier weight of the aircraft, you can’t let lateral deviations get as pronounced as you can in smaller tail wheels. There is a lot of momentum to fight.

Even the type of tailwheel tire can make a big difference in ground handling.
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Does the Beech 18 have a steerable tailwheel or is it free castering? I assume you'll ground loop the airplane without the tailwheel locked due to a lack of rudder authority?

As of late, one of the airplanes I've been flying is a tailwheel twin with a free castering tailwheel and no lock (and questionable brakes). It's pretty tame but I think you'll be in for a ride if there is ever a partial power loss on takeoff, or if you don't maintain the proper crosswind control inputs. Thankfully the tail comes up quickly and has good authority, but as you noted the airplane is heavier and you can't let the airplane get away from you like you can in a Cub or something similar.

FastEddieB said:
One point I always tried to get across...

Tail firmly on the ground, you were OK - the tailwheel takes on the majority of directional control responsiblity.

Tail up, you were OK - the rudder is up in the free air where it can take on the responsibility of directional control.

In between, there be dragons. The tailwheel can’t help and the rudder is largely blanketed by the fuselage. That sure looked to me like a factor in this accident, though it could have been something else entirely.
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I'd agree with this only if the airplane has a steerable tailwheel. Not sure what the DC3 or Beech 18 have.
 
BigBadLou said:
FWIW, Burnet has a lot of shifty winds due to terrain features and building positioning. On a windy day, you need to be on your game to commandeer an aircraft toward or off the rwy.
I heard from many pilots over the years that they don't like going to Burnet for that reason.
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I never felt Burnet special, but I fly very forgiving airplanes. Still, I think Angel Fire, NM has much more annoying winds. IMHO that the tailwheel didn't go up early is probably more relevant to the root cause. If I squint just right, I can see that nose-up elevator that Mr. F. Tower mentioned above.

Here's a DC-3 takeoff that's a bit late raising the tail and takes a bit of crosswind:
 
My phone has a big curving arrow in the middle of the screen telling me to turn the phone horizondal during video recording.

My wife is not a pilot, never flown in a tailwheel plane, but has been with me in a lot of aircraft stuff. She said "That doesn't look right" while looking at the video.

Tail should be up, I said.

That's it, she agreed.
 
Robert Goubitz said:
As a former DC-3 and Beech 18 driver I can tell you two things. Unlike the Twin Beech, the tailwheel lock in a DC-3 is not all that critical. It is mainly beneficial during taxiing. But sure, it helps during takeoffs, especially heavily loaded when the tailwheel sticks the the ground a bit longer.

In a DC-3, also unlike certain other tail draggers, I would rather lose the rudder than ailerons. For directional control first you input rudder, simultaneously opposite aileron to rudder, and last but not least differential power. The ailerons are extremely effective for directional control, adverse yaw. DC-3 moves to the right, input right aileron. It is a given. It is a must. So, in the video, I don't see any aileron movement anywhere, not on the ground, not in the air...
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Interesting insight there. Also, nice first post. :)
 
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