Blacks in Aviation

Everskyward said:
OK, so this should be the perfect program. It doesn't get much more upscale than Aspen.

http://www.aspendailynews.com/section/home/151433
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Kudos to them for doing something, but I wouldn't call it perfect.

I attended High School in the Public School system in the inner-city of D.C. proper. Although I was in a magnet program for advanced Math & Science students, $50/ flight hour would be prohibitive, thereby producing low numbers and reinforce classism between those (parents) that could vs those that could not afford it.

I'll work on the problem more when I get into my philanthrophy time.
 
Jaybird180 said:
Kudos to them for doing something, but I wouldn't call it perfect.

I attended High School in the Public School system in the inner-city of D.C. proper. Although I was in a magnet program for advanced Math & Science students, $50/ flight hour would be prohibitive, thereby producing low numbers and reinforce classism between those (parents) that could vs those that could not afford it.

I'll work on the problem more when I get into my philanthrophy time.
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I doubt that there are any low-income people living in Aspen. The workers mostly live elsewhere unless they are live-in help. My comment was based on the fact that the parents of these kids probably have the income to pay for flying lessons so introducing these kids to flying might produce a better statistical completion rate. That is, if your main goal is to increase participation.
 
http://www.tamuseum.org/

No handouts here. Intro flight for $25.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_19_106/ai_n7579763/

"This thing is really about two kids who come from a fairly disadvantaged neighborhood. These two kids took it upon themselves; they had a dream and they came down to the museum and worked for it. They got nothing for free; they earned it. They actually have to sign a contract to not cut class, not do drugs or gang bang or anything like that. They were able to accomplish their dreams around all of these challenges," he said.
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Jaybird180 said:
...$50/ flight hour would be prohibitive, thereby producing low numbers and reinforce classism between those (parents) that could vs those that could not afford it.
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Any kid could just...show...up. While the days of the airport kid are pretty much over (thanks US govt) one could still gain entrance if motivated. I reject the notion of classism, one has to show determination.
 
Everskyward said:
Nice! But earlier in the thread I thought you were criticizing outreach to minorities which this definitely seems to be.
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What I meant was outreach for the purposes of artificially bolstering percentages is a waste. But if that outreach is there to help propel an individual after they have demonstrated an intrinsic motivation, I am all for that. It's that ol saw about a hand out Vs hand up. Govt of all levels have aptly demonstrated the ability to create such programs but which make great efforts to smooth every wrinkle in one's life. That is not fair to society nor the individual.
 
Richard said:
What I meant was outreach for the purposes of artificially bolstering percentages is a waste. But if that outreach is there to help propel an individual after they have demonstrated an intrinsic motivation, I am all for that. It's that ol saw about a hand out Vs hand up. Govt of all levels have aptly demonstrated the ability to create such programs but which make great efforts to smooth every wrinkle in one's life. That is not fair to society nor the individual.
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Since when has the government given out free airplane rides to bolster percentages? We're talking about non-profits here, I think. Both this program and On Laughter Silvered Wings demand something of the participant. I'm talking about outreach in the sense that if you see other people who look like you and are from a similar background participating in an activity is probably easier to get involved and to believe it is possible.
 
Richard said:
Any kid could just...show...up. While the days of the airport kid are pretty much over (thanks US govt) one could still gain entrance if motivated. I reject the notion of classism, one has to show determination.
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Ask a Black man if your words have been his experience then come back and report your results.
 
Everskyward said:
I doubt that there are any low-income people living in Aspen. The workers mostly live elsewhere unless they are live-in help. My comment was based on the fact that the parents of these kids probably have the income to pay for flying lessons so introducing these kids to flying might produce a better statistical completion rate. That is, if your main goal is to increase participation.
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You're very likely right on target. I just sythesized the thread topic and the post. I didn't consider that it was Aspen, Colorodo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYJ9zOyzI4w

Some truth in the humor
 
Jaybird180 said:
Ask a Black man if your words have been his experience then come back and report your results.
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Your comments suggest this is a new topic to me and that I haven't before posed that question to such a person.

In truth, I have asked that...several times. The 2nd generation Mexican denied any difficulties. One black man* said he felt an initial apprehension similar to mine ('can I do this?'), two other black men denied any perceived or real difficulties arising from their ethnicity.

That is not to say some people do encounter difficulties or even opposition. Everyone's experiences are different. In fact, to say 'all of a certain group' will experience difficulties is somewhat racist. To design programs based on that broad brush appraisal is a built-in failure to that extent.

*This man was a 24 yr old college graduate, son of an immigrant from Uganda. His father was a 15 yr regional capt at that time. Perhaps the son had prepared himself for the challenge, he did express a concern for pleasing his father.
 
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On a related subject. The African-American Pioneers in Aviation Family Day at the National Air and Space Museum Udvar-Hazy (Dulles) center is coming up.

http://www.nasm.si.edu/events/eventDetail.cfm?eventID=3557

I only was alerted this as it is my job to feed the education department staff the night before the family days (must to the chagrin of the education head when the planning meetings degenerate into "What is Ron cooking this time?").
 
Richard said:
Your comments suggest this is a new topic to me and that I haven't before posed that question to such a person.

In truth, I have asked that...several times. The 2nd generation Mexican denied any difficulties. One black man* said he felt an initial apprehension similar to mine ('can I do this?'), two other black men denied any perceived or real difficulties arising from their ethnicity.

That is not to say some people do encounter difficulties or even opposition. Everyone's experiences are different. In fact, to say 'all of a certain group' will experience difficulties is somewhat racist. To design programs based on that broad brush appraisal is a built-in failure to that extent.

*This man was a 24 yr old college graduate, son of an immigrant from Uganda. His father was a 15 yr regional capt at that time. Perhaps the son had prepared himself for the challenge, he did express a concern for pleasing his father.
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While I applaud your chosen example what is omitted is the understanding that the difficulty varies from person to person and is not influenced by the amount of melanin per se, but the mindset.

What IS ignored is that Black people in America have a unique set of challenges as a direct result of generational issues that arise from chattel slavery. These challenges have not gone away by abolition of Jim Crow, nor the election of Barack Obama. White liberalists, misunderstanding this (though many are well intentioned) cause more harm than good.

Rev. Dr. Martin L King said:
I must make two honest confessions to you, my Christian and Jewish brothers. First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

http://www.africa.upenn.edu/Articles_Gen/Letter_Birmingham.html
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Jaybird180 said:
What IS ignored is that Black people in America have a unique set of challenges as a direct result of generational issues that arise from chattel slavery. These challenges have not gone away by abolition of Jim Crow, nor the election of Barack Obama. White liberalists, misunderstanding this (though many are well intentioned) cause more harm than good.
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I agree with all of this, and also agree that just throwing money at people to "help" them, well to actually make ourselves FEEL better for past atrocities, has done more harm than good. All I do know is that improvement of any group of people must come from within, not from some government. The values, and willingness to learn, acquire valuable skills, and be a positive contributor to society need to be embraced now that many if not all barriers have been eliminated.
 
Couldn't afford flight lessons until I was in my 30s. I'll honestly say this. When I started flight lessons in '98, I had a little bit of apprehension. Not because I felt like I couldn't do it but because I was concerned that my instructors would treat me differently because I was black. I guess being the only black guy in sight gave me cause for concern. Fortunately, my fears never manifested. I've had several CFIs over the years, all white and one Hispanic. They were all great guys. None of them ever treated me as racially inferior. I knew that I was an inferior airman and had a lot to learn (still do). So I'm really grateful to be alive in this time as opposed to my parents' time because it's highly likely that I would not have been able to achieve my dream.Progress is a beautiful thing. :)
 
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redtail said:
I'm really grateful to be alive in this time as apposed to my parents' time because it's highly likely that I would not have been able to achieve my dream.*Progress is a beautiful thing. :)
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Same here. It's a testament to the country that I was able to learn to fly at 20 when that opportunity would in no way have been available to my father, let alone my mother when they were 20.
 
Anthony said:
I agree with all of this, and also agree that just throwing money at people to "help" them, well to actually make ourselves FEEL better for past atrocities, has done more harm than good. All I do know is that improvement of any group of people must come from within, not from some government. The values, and willingness to learn, acquire valuable skills, and be a positive contributor to society need to be embraced now that many if not all barriers have been eliminated.
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Amen:wink2:
 
Anthony said:
I agree with all of this, and also agree that just throwing money at people to "help" them, well to actually make ourselves FEEL better for past atrocities, has done more harm than good. All I do know is that improvement of any group of people must come from within, not from some government. The values, and willingness to learn, acquire valuable skills, and be a positive contributor to society need to be embraced now that many if not all barriers have been eliminated.
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To our credit, most if not all of the official impediments to minority participation in society have been removed. That was the easy part. Unfortunately, the evils of the past haunt us still. Doing nothing in the face of this is unpalatable to many if not most. The problem comes in what to do. Throwing money at it easy and takes little understanding. To say that such efforts are counterproductive is a bit misleading, we have witnessed the creation of a small African American middle class. To say that such efforts are insufficient is simple truth, we still suffer the social ills created by our forefathers.

I have yet to see any creative solutions to this dilemma. We ignore it at our peril, creation of a permanent underclass will be the ruin of us all.
 
Jaybird180 said:
While I applaud your chosen example what is omitted is the understanding that the difficulty varies from person to person and is not influenced by the amount of melanin per se, but the mindset.

What IS ignored is that Black people in America have a unique set of challenges as a direct result of generational issues that arise from chattel slavery. These challenges have not gone away by abolition of Jim Crow, nor the election of Barack Obama. White liberalists, misunderstanding this (though many are well intentioned) cause more harm than good.
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What is omitted in your response to my previous post where I mentioned I had this discussion with several black aviators.

By your words I will NEVER understand the black man's challenges because I am not a black man. Well, then. But perhaps that understanding is not being provided. Perhaps there is no care to provide that understanding.

With that I think this thread just went over the cliff. Will it be an easy landing to everyone's benefit or will it end in yet another smash up on this issue?

I think it's high time the black community put down that crap about slavery. Ill feelings over slavery in America have been perpetuated for a longer time than there actually was slavery in America. I hold nothing in this for my people never were a part of that. I am 3rd gen in this country.

"Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection."

Did MLK really say that? Does this mean if any who wanted to help should become radical, angry even? How the quote reads to me is "we" crapped in the hand trying to help because its not black enough and it is not up in arms.
 
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All interesting comments. Looks like I’m a little late to the conversation, but better late than never ....

Richard said:
I think it's high time the black community put down that crap about slavery. Ill feelings over slavery in America have been perpetuated for a longer time than there actually was slavery in America. I hold nothing in this for my people never were a part of that. I am 3rd gen in this country.
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I think putting down that ‘crap’ about slavery would be a wonderful idea – unfortunately, it takes two to tango, and the other party doesn’t seem to be willing to dance just yet….When you look at the media in this country (haven’t explored the media elsewhere, so can’t speak to that), it’s interesting how the black angle is what’s so newsworthy, so unique, so ‘wow – I didn’t know they could do that!!’
 All the hoopla over Tiger Woods breaking barriers in golf because he was black? Um, technically, he’s just as much asian as black…. But that doesn’t make the news...
 Barack Obama – the nation’s first black president! Um, technically, you could also say he’s the nation’s 44th white president too…. But that doesn’t make the news….
 George Lucas on interviews, talking about how he had to put up so much of his money to make Red Tails because the major studios didn’t want to gamble on a movie with an all-black cast….. gotta wonder when’s the last time somebody told George ‘No’ when he came knocking with a movie idea.

 While slavery technically ended many years ago, seems like we, as a nation still have a hangover. ( I say that being at least 5th generation in this country myself; my Native American ancestors were, of course, native :D)

 When it comes to aviation, I will agree that what keeps you progressing to become a pilot is passion, discipline and money. But it’s a lot harder to get started if you have near-zero visibility on any role models, and your family’s experience with aviation has been an exclusionary, or at best, uncomfortable one. Why spend your money (or your parent’s money, if you started younger; and now you’re dealing with not just your perceptions, but theirs too) and free time in a place where people’s actions and eyes say “you don’t belong here” when you walk on to the ramp for your preflight?

Wish I could say that those experiences are all in past history, but when Grant and I are flying x-country, and we both exit the airplane, that air still exists in some places; I see it both in being black and in being female. Changing those experiences and attitudes, as well as making sure prospective pilots can see that flying is an achievable dream for everyone, will go a long way towards increasing the pilot population overall.
 
Richard said:
What is omitted in your response to my previous post where I mentioned I had this discussion with several black aviators.
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My intent in responding was not to make this about a you and I. If that got lost in translation I take responsiblity for my part in miscommunicating. Using quotes often makes it appear as a direct assault or pick-apart of one's words but however I only intended to use them to highlight a point (as I do below - so please forgive) based on words that you've written that is often unsaid in the light of the public (and for that I applaud you), with a little bit of interperpolation (reading between the lines) of my own.

Richard said:
I think it's high time the black community put down that crap about slavery
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Frankly, I think it quite paternalistic of you to say such a thing. You've proven the point.

Richard said:
Did MLK really say that? Does this mean if any who wanted to help should become radical, angry even? How the quote reads to me is "we" crapped in the hand trying to help because its not black enough and it is not up in arms.
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You wouln't dare part your lips or stroke your keyboard (for example) if the subject were about the German-Jewish Holocaust for fear of being labeled Anti-Semitic and relegated to the outskirts of intellectual society. But it's OK for a Caucaisian male (pardon the assumption if I am incorrect) to tell another people (who number approx 30-40 million now US Citizens) to "Get over it" without having 'walked a step in their moccasins'

I have been here longer than your 3 generations, Sir, and IMHO those that enjoy the benefits of privilidge have (and continue to do so with well-trained blindness) bounced a check owed to those who are purposefully steered down the path of least resistance to make that continued privilidge possible.

Current Generation Germans are not responsible for the Holocaust, yet they are paying reparations. There are taxpayer funded Holocaust museums in several major cities in America, yet America fought against German brutality. See the inequality in the illustration?

Sen. Kerry in his Presidential Campaign was asked about a proposal for a study on reparations in America. His White Moderate response was that it would 'only serve to divide the country'. According to him, it was not even worth an academic dialogue! Let's not waste resources determining the root cause of why we have this problem in America (the land of the Free). Let's get on with our "negative peace in the absence of tension". Lawd knows...we don't need none o' dem' Rebel Rousers finding out the truth, so once a year in February we'll just tell em' that Lincoln freed the slaves and MLK had a dream and that will be enough.

I think this is why Blacks are underrepresented in Aviation. The quantitative data to illustrate my point is self-evident.
Forrest Gump said:
And that's all I have to say about that
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lprellwitz said:
it’s interesting how the black angle is what’s so newsworthy, so unique, so ‘wow – I didn’t know they could do that!!’
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That's what always irritated me about some people's reaction, however well meaning, to me. Wow! You're a pilot! That's AMAZING! Geez, do I look handicapped to you or somehow incapable? If I was blind and became a pilot that would be amazing. I left all that behind when I was younger and don't really care what people's reactions are any more but I can see how it might make some people uncomfortable.
 
Everskyward said:
That's what always irritated me about some people's reaction, however well meaning, to me. Wow! You're a pilot! That's AMAZING! Geez, do I look handicapped to you or somehow incapable? If I was blind and became a pilot that would be amazing. I left all that behind when I was younger and don't really care what people's reactions are any more but I can see how it might make some people uncomfortable.
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That irritating reaction is stupifying amazing. I reckon that reaction could extend to all sorts of things. Stupid is as stupid does. There is no accounting for some people. I would not even think of defending that brand of ignorance.

I have seen some of that myself, but as an observer. The best to be done in such case is try to educate them. Ya know, some times it's not them being bigoted, racist or what have you. Some times they really didn't know women could be pilots. Maybe if they had thought about it they would changed their thinking. But until they actually see a woman pilot, would they even think about it?

Life is no bed of roses for anyone. The best anyone can do in these situations is to educate the other. Inform them of a whole world that already exists.
 
Richard said:
I have seen some of that myself, but as an observer. The best to be done in such case is try to educate them. Ya know, some times it's not them being bigoted, racist or what have you. Some times they really didn't know women could be pilots. Maybe if they had thought about it they would changed their thinking. But until they actually see a woman pilot, would they even think about it?
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I don't think these people are bigoted or racist as I think they mean it as a compliment. It's just a comment on society that expectations are somewhat lowered for certain groups. On the other hand it makes it easy to exceed expectations. :)
 
lprellwitz said:
All interesting comments. Looks like I’m a little late to the conversation, but better late than never ....



I think putting down that ‘crap’ about slavery would be a wonderful idea – unfortunately, it takes two to tango, and the other party doesn’t seem to be willing to dance just yet….When you look at the media in this country (haven’t explored the media elsewhere, so can’t speak to that), it’s interesting how the black angle is what’s so newsworthy, so unique, so ‘wow – I didn’t know they could do that!!’
All the hoopla over Tiger Woods breaking barriers in golf because he was black? Um, technically, he’s just as much asian as black…. But that doesn’t make the news...
Barack Obama – the nation’s first black president! Um, technically, you could also say he’s the nation’s 44th white president too…. But that doesn’t make the news….
George Lucas on interviews, talking about how he had to put up so much of his money to make Red Tails because the major studios didn’t want to gamble on a movie with an all-black cast….. gotta wonder when’s the last time somebody told George ‘No’ when he came knocking with a movie idea.

While slavery technically ended many years ago, seems like we, as a nation still have a hangover. ( I say that being at least 5th generation in this country myself; my Native American ancestors were, of course, native :D)

When it comes to aviation, I will agree that what keeps you progressing to become a pilot is passion, discipline and money. But it’s a lot harder to get started if you have near-zero visibility on any role models, and your family’s experience with aviation has been an exclusionary, or at best, uncomfortable one. Why spend your money (or your parent’s money, if you started younger; and now you’re dealing with not just your perceptions, but theirs too) and free time in a place where people’s actions and eyes say “you don’t belong here” when you walk on to the ramp for your preflight?

Wish I could say that those experiences are all in past history, but when Grant and I are flying x-country, and we both exit the airplane, that air still exists in some places; I see it both in being black and in being female. Changing those experiences and attitudes, as well as making sure prospective pilots can see that flying is an achievable dream for everyone, will go a long way towards increasing the pilot population overall.
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Leslie, I was hoping you would comment. I knew when I typed "crap" it would appear ambiguous at best. While your comments don't suggest offense I apologize for any offense from my words.

Who is the "other party"?

Um, I say eff the media. The media only seeks to make dissent in order to create 'news'.

Me personally, I have a hard time with the notion that one needs role models. What held me back was not an absence of role models but certain people saying I couldn't. Because those certain people were near and dear to me, I know that role models (outsiders) could not have overcome the 'boundaries put in place. It was myself which said I could. If other people need someone to create their motivation I can understand that...kinda. I mean, I don't think what works for me will work for others. However, by extension why should a whole population be 'branded' into a group? Such grouping serves to manifest stereotypes.
 
Everskyward said:
I don't think these people are bigoted or racist as I think they mean it as a compliment. It's just a comment on society that expectations are somewhat lowered for certain groups. On the other hand it makes it easy to exceed expectations. :)
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Got it. I have seen that. And when I have seen that I roll my eyes. It's like a back handed compliment.
 
Richard said:
That irritating reaction is stupifying amazing. I reckon that reaction could extend to all sorts of things. Stupid is as stupid does. There is no accounting for some people. I would not even think of defending that brand of ignorance.

I have seen some of that myself, but as an observer. The best to be done in such case is try to educate them. Ya know, some times it's not them being bigoted, racist or what have you. Some times they really didn't know women could be pilots. Maybe if they had thought about it they would changed their thinking. But until they actually see a woman pilot, would they even think about it?

Life is no bed of roses for anyone. The best anyone can do in these situations is to educate the other. Inform them of a whole world that already exists.
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And that is the Catch-22 here! There are few examples of xxxx in a field so xxxx's don't see it as an opportunity and people are surprised when they actually see one of the rare xxxx's in the field. Because few xxxx's see the opportunity, even if there is nothing specific to them keeping them from entering the field, they don't pursue that field, leading us back to having few xxxx's in the field.

Note that xxxx could be any minority, and field can be any endeavor. Put "white male" in for xxxx and nursing as the field, and I think that it would also be a true statement, varying only in degree from blacks in aviation.
 
gprellwitz said:
And that is the Catch-22 here! There are few examples of xxxx in a field so xxxx's don't see it as an opportunity and people are surprised when they actually see one of the rare xxxx's in the field. Because few xxxx's see the opportunity, even if there is nothing specific to them keeping them from entering the field, they don't pursue that field, leading us back to having few xxxx's in the field.
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I visited an older black surgeon in DC last week. He had some interesting stories dating back to when he trained on how patients in San Francisco just could not understand that there was something like a black doctor or how the final interview question at a hospital in Florida was 'I hope your wife is black. We can deal with you being black, but you can't allow you to prance around our hospital with a white woman'.

This 'crap' is not as distant in time and space as some who wish for it to 'just go away' want it to be.

Note that xxxx could be any minority, and field can be any endeavor. Put "white male" in for xxxx and nursing as the field, and I think that it would also be a true statement, varying only in degree from blacks in aviation.
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Plenty of white male RNs, they just seem to gravitate to areas like the OR, ,ER, cath-lab, ICUs or endoscopy and are less prominent in classic 'nursing and nurturing' roles.
The older ones frequently have a military background, worked as corpsman and later finished up school.
 
Jaybird180 said:
My intent in responding was not to make this about a you and I. If that got lost in translation I take responsiblity for my part in miscommunicating. Using quotes often makes it appear as a direct assault or pick-apart of one's words but however I only intended to use them to highlight a point (as I do below - so please forgive) based on words that you've written that is often unsaid in the light of the public (and for that I applaud you), with a little bit of interperpolation (reading between the lines) of my own.
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I didn't mean to make this about you or I either. But it is relevent for it is person to person and individual by individual by which this whole issue is promulgated.


Frankly, I think it quite paternalistic of you to say such a thing. You've proven the point.
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I'm afraid I don't understand. Please explain.



You wouln't dare part your lips or stroke your keyboard (for example) if the subject were about the German-Jewish Holocaust for fear of being labeled Anti-Semitic and relegated to the outskirts of intellectual society. But it's OK for a Caucaisian male (pardon the assumption if I am incorrect) to tell another people (who number approx 30-40 million now US Citizens) to "Get over it" without having 'walked a step in their moccasins'
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I figured the holocaust would come up in this discussion. Vis a vis black slavery, how is the persecution of of the Jewish people different? To me they are the same. I would not speak against either persecution.

I am a caucasion male. Not being black I cannot say I know what it is to be black, no matter how many black friends I have, no matter how many intelligent discussions we have, no matter how well I listen. The same can be said for women issues. But being a human being I can say what that's like. I can say I understand we all have issues and we need to get past them. What it takes for an individual or a group of individuals with a shared background to get past there burdens is for them to decide. I think by holding on to such a thing, by making it part of tradition, by institutionalizing it, such a person has developed an affinity for that thing. If it is not in their best interest why hang on to it?

I have been here longer than your 3 generations, Sir, and IMHO those that enjoy the benefits of privilidge have (and continue to do so with well-trained blindness) bounced a check owed to those who are purposefully steered down the path of least resistance to make that continued privilidge possible.
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We all stand on the shoulders of great men and women who came before us. I will strenously disagree for me to stand tall meant someone had to crouch down into a pit. Further, for me to enjoy success (in whatever form) that another was forced into a disagreeable condition. If I find a person in such a place I will offer a hand up and prolly ask why they were down there.

Speaking from personal experience, some persons have actually said they enjoy being there, that otherwise they would feel they are turning their back on their kin. My emotions aside, who am I to decide if it is right or wrong? Yet I do wonder do they think there is honor in sacrificing themselves for an innoble cause?

Current Generation Germans are not responsible for the Holocaust, yet they are paying reparations. There are taxpayer funded Holocaust museums in several major cities in America, yet America fought against German brutality. See the inequality in the illustration?
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I'm not following your illustration.

{quoteSen. Kerry in his Presidential Campaign was asked about a proposal for a study on reparations in America. His White Moderate response was that it would 'only serve to divide the country'. According to him, it was not even worth an academic dialogue! Let's not waste resources determining the root cause of why we have this problem in America (the land of the Free). Let's get on with our "negative peace in the absence of tension". Lawd knows...we don't need none o' dem' Rebel Rousers finding out the truth, so once a year in February we'll just tell em' that Lincoln freed the slaves and MLK had a dream and that will be enough.[/quote] Aside from the fact that I think Kerry a maroon, he is but one example. Please do not read that as my challenge for you to find other examples. To do so would detract from the topic here. The rest of your comments are you getting emotionally wild. Whoa back, good buddy.

I think this is why Blacks are underrepresented in Aviation. The quantitative data to illustrate my point is self-evident.
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Ok, glad you said that. To me, this whole topic boils down to one thing. Whether black, asian, female, or a combo of those, etc, if one becomes a pilot (or business owner, rock star, mechanic, etc) is personal choice. Determination to succeed, ability, intrinsic motivation, and on and on...it is those things which determine where and by what means one ends up in life. We can all cry 'woe is me', my crap is no less actual than yours. We can offer help and giudance and mentoring opportunities.

Bottom line is what I understand is there are people more than glad to keep yoou down. And sometimes those people are within our group. I call them Sandpaper People. Maybe it's a whole group acting against you or it may be a person here and ther along the way, or maybe they are from your own family. "Buck up", as they say. Become the role model if that is important to you and yours.
 
gprellwitz said:
And that is the Catch-22 here! There are few examples of xxxx in a field so xxxx's don't see it as an opportunity and people are surprised when they actually see one of the rare xxxx's in the field. Because few xxxx's see the opportunity, even if there is nothing specific to them keeping them from entering the field, they don't pursue that field, leading us back to having few xxxx's in the field.

Note that xxxx could be any minority, and field can be any endeavor. Put "white male" in for xxxx and nursing as the field, and I think that it would also be a true statement, varying only in degree from blacks in aviation.
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Hi, Grant. Thanks for your comments. But let's back up. WHY is xxxx even important? Is it that unusual for an individual to stand up and declare to kith and kin and the whole world, This is what I am doing!
 
weilke said:
This 'crap' is not as distant in time and space as some who wish for it to 'just go away' want it to be.
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It won't go away on it's own as long as people seek to perpetuate it. So far the anecdotes have been about some people making disparging comments or actions against blacks. But what of the black community holding on to this?

This should not be about 'us Vs them'. When it becomes that war of factions and as long as it remains thus, it is lost. Better is to take each individual on merit. But above all, respect and decency shown to your fellow man.
 
p1l0t said:
Cuba Gooding Jr was at AOPA Summit 2011 @ KHFD.. Oh wait he was in Red Tails too that doesn't count. What about Snoop Dogg he did that whole Soul Plane gig..

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Who were their role models? Maybe instead of looking to celebrities one should find their role models in the man playing catch with his kids, or the man a few doors down, or the woman at work, or the kid at the FBO from the broken home.
 
Richard said:
Is it that unusual for an individual to stand up and declare to kith and kin and the whole world, This is what I am doing!
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In modern US culture where individualism is prized it's not unusual at all. In other cultures maybe not so much so. It takes a generation or two to assimilate. People are also individuals and respond to cultural pressure in different ways. It might be hard for you (or me) to understand why it is hard for some people to do this just because of our own personality.
 
Richard said:
It won't go away on it's own as long as people seek to perpetuate it. So far the anecdotes have been about some people making disparging comments or actions against blacks. But what of the black community holding on to this?

This should not be about 'us Vs them'. When it becomes that war of factions and as long as it remains thus, it is lost. Better is to take each individual on merit. But above all, respect and decency shown to your fellow man.
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So if we ignore the reality just hard enough, it'll eventually go away by its own ?
 
Richard said:
Who were their role models? Maybe instead of looking to celebrities one should find their role models in the man playing catch with his kids, or the man a few doors down, or the woman at work, or the kid at the FBO from the broken home.
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I was thinking from a top down approach reaching out to populations that might have the brains, guts, and dollars to be pilots but expend their energy elsewhere. Your right though, the first thought that come to mind from the word role-model shouldn't be some celebrity. [Prays to John Travolta for forgiveness] ;)

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weilke said:
So if we ignore the reality just hard enough, it'll eventually go away by its own ?
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No problem goes away on it's own. And certainly this topic is a problem. To eliminate this problem, or at least to greatly minimize the deleterious effects of this, requires action. In this case, the action would be tantamount to a declaration; I won't stand for this any longer. And behaviors to support the words.

I should add that because I am not black or female and maybe because of my aloof personality where I don't require role models, I don't rightly understand this topic. Far be it for me to achieve resolution. But I believe if one is to complain they should also seek to resolve.
 
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