Biggest challenges for non-native English speaking student pilots

[Maria Treadaway]

Hi all,

For the instructors out there who are training ab inito pilots who don't have English as their first language, what would you say are the biggest (language) challenges for these students/for you?

Also, for non English speaking ab initios, what do you find difficult in your practical flight training?

Cheers,

Maria

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Hi, Maria!

Welcome. Assuming you are asking for yourself, how far along are you in your flight training?

While not a CFI, I train people from all over the world on lab equipment. Students don't like to tell me to either "slow down" , or that they have a question.

When flying, assuming a new student, learn the terms "My airplane", meaning the CFI wants to control the plane, and tell him "Your airplane" and release the controls. Likewise he'll say "your airplane" when he wants you to fly, you take the controls and say "my airplane" to confirm your are controlling the plane.

 

[schmookeeg]

The glaring thing to me has been students who learn "rote things to say" instead of actually learning the language, so that when the controller gives non-standard phraseology, you don't just key the mike, wait 5 seconds, and repeat the last thing you said verbatim, annoying everyone and wasting 30 seconds plus a "is your instructor on board??" call from ATC.

For the record I cannot imagine doing flight training in a language I do not speak fluently.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Hi, Maria!

Welcome. Assuming you are asking for yourself, how far along are you in your flight training?

While not a CFI, I train people from all over the world on lab equipment. Students don't like to tell me to either "slow down" , or that they have a question.

When flying, assuming a new student, learn the terms "My airplane", meaning the CFI wants to control the plane, and tell him "Your airplane" and release the controls. Likewise he'll say "your airplane" when he wants you to fly, you take the controls and say "my airplane" to confirm your are controlling the plane.

Hi Capn Jack, No. Not me. Thankfully I'm a native speaker, but I still found RTF challenging! I'm a PhD student doing research into the language needs of ab initios. What you say mirrors exaclty what CFIs in NZ say too. Thanks for connecting.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

The glaring thing to me has been students who learn "rote things to say" instead of actually learning the language, so that when the controller gives non-standard phraseology, you don't just key the mike, wait 5 seconds, and repeat the last thing you said verbatim, annoying everyone and wasting 30 seconds plus a "is your instructor on board??" call from ATC.

For the record I cannot imagine doing flight training in a language I do not speak fluently.

Yep. It's pretty daunting to imagine learning in a foreign language with all the cognitive load of flying the aircraft. The rote learning stuff is so true. There needs to be true understanding as the foundation of comms.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Is it true that the only requirement to apply for a certificate is the "english proficiency" standard? Which is somewhat open to interpretation?
I know a dpe and he says communication is one of the most difficult part of the exams he does; I am pretty sure he said he has failed quite a few before they get in the airplane because of this.
Maybe someone could offer language courses to these students. Perhaps it could be an FAA prerequisite, might save a lot of expense and heartache to aspiring pilots.

 

[Hang 4]

To me, you're not speaking english, you're speaking a much more compact "language". As a native english speaker, I found the language daunting at first, and still do for some approach clearances. Having said that, there's only so many words and phrases to learn and they are far fewer than the actual language. Once I got my head wrapped around that, it got a lot easier as I was able to anticipate what the controller was going to say.

I don't think one needs to be fluent in english to be a safe pilot, but you do need to be fluent in "ATC". Similar to learning a language, once you stop translating in your head, you'll be fluent. If you break it down into a language with far fewer words and a way to anticipate what is going to be said, it gets easier.

I travelled internationally for work and had "taxi and restaurant" fluency in multiple languages because the words and phrases I needed were much more compact. Know the words for beef, chicken and beer and you can muddle through initially. After a couple of weeks in-country, I'm good. From a teaching perspective, think it's similar. Break the language down into what to expect at each phase of flight. One still needs to learn more than just rote replies, but it's not like you have to be able to translate Shakespeare either.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Is it true that the only requirement to apply for a certificate is the "english proficiency" standard? Which is somewhat open to interpretation?
I know a dpe and he says communication is one of the most difficult part of the exams he does; I am pretty sure he said he has failed quite a few before they get in the airplane because of this.
Maybe someone could offer language courses to these students. Perhaps it could be an FAA prerequisite, might save a lot of expense and heartache to aspiring pilots.

Hi there, In most American universities that offer aviation, there are generic language test requirements like TOEFL, TOEIC and IELTS. However, these are for academic English, not aviation English. That's why I have created tests specifically for ab initios from overseas training in English speaking countries. The test content is focussed on basic tasks, like listening to an ATIS, listening to a preflight briefing, listening to an instructor talking about the function of flight instruments and external parts of the aircraft. Language is the poor cousin in human factors...

 

[Maria Treadaway]

To me, you're not speaking english, you're speaking a much more compact "language". As a native english speaker, I found the language daunting at first, and still do for some approach clearances. Having said that, there's only so many words and phrases to learn and they are far fewer than the actual language. Once I got my head wrapped around that, it got a lot easier as I was able to anticipate what the controller was going to say.

I don't think one needs to be fluent in english to be a safe pilot, but you do need to be fluent in "ATC". Similar to learning a language, once you stop translating in your head, you'll be fluent. If you break it down into a language with far fewer words and a way to anticipate what is going to be said, it gets easier.

I travelled internationally for work and had "taxi and restaurant" fluency in multiple languages because the words and phrases I needed were much more compact. Know the words for beef, chicken and beer and you can muddle through initially. After a couple of weeks in-country, I'm good. From a teaching perspective, think it's similar. Break the language down into what to expect at each phase of flight. One still needs to learn more than just rote replies, but it's not like you have to be able to translate Shakespeare either.

Hi there, I definitely think focussing on the essentials of RTF and phraseology is the way to go in the inital stages of training. But there needs to be more than a minimum language proficiency developed over time in order to be able to deal with non-routine situations, non standard clearances and non standard phraseology. Culture and the willingness to speak up when not sure also plays a huge at all levels of operation.

 

[Hang 4]

Hi there, In most American universities that offer aviation, there are generic language test requirements like TOEFL, TOEIC and IELTS. However, these are for academic English, not aviation English. That's why I have created tests specifically for ab initios from overseas training in English speaking countries. The test content is focussed on basic tasks, like listening to an ATIS, listening to a preflight briefing, listening to an instructor talking about the function of flight instruments and external parts of the aircraft. Language is the poor cousin in human factors...

You are spot on with how you are thinking about it. There are 470,000 words roughly in the English language. A wild guess, 500 are used in aviation. 90% of the interactions are specific and expected phrases " enter the right downwind for 25". The trick is to test for comprehension of that phrase specifically, which is hard if the student doesn't speak the instructors language. Also, how to deal with the non-standard stuff, like getting vectored around weather or if there is a choice to make between multiple options

 

[rene86mx]

I work 90% of my time in English, studied in the US a MBA and scored 600 in TOEFL so might not be your typical student. For me it was when the controller used non-common language or something that I wasn't expecting.

I think that in today's world with so many resources: ATC sims, Youtube, Live ATC, students need to be prepared and be ready for when they face the real thing.

If it helps. you could try looking at the format of tests that other countries have for considering a pilot English proficient. I know that Mexican pilots hate it because the score is 100% subjective.

 

[Initial Fix]

It’s not just the understanding, but also the enunciation of the words. I have to listen really closely especially with student pilots from Asia on the radio, as the language emphasizes different consonants than English. It’s not a ding, just differences in the spoken language.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

I work 90% of my time in English, studied in the US a MBA and scored 600 in TOEFL so might not be your typical student. For me it was when the controller used non-common language or something that I wasn't expecting.

I think that in today's world with so many resources: ATC sims, Youtube, Live ATC, students need to be prepared and be ready for when they face the real thing.

If it helps. you could try looking at the format of tests that other countries have for considering a pilot English proficient. I know that Mexican pilots hate it because the score is 100% subjective.

Hi there. Your concerns regarding non-standard phraseology are shared by others I've talked to. I'll look up the Mexican test. It sounds like it is only speaking. My tests have listening and reading in them too (so objectively scored) as well as the speaking, which is scored against the ICAO language proficiency rating scale. I think the FAA does its own thing in the States with regards to certification.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

It’s not just the understanding, but also the enunciation of the words. I have to listen really closely especially with student pilots from Asia on the radio, as the language emphasizes different consonants than English. It’s not a ding, just differences in the spoken language.

Yes. Clear pronunciation is super important over the radio. I think you need to get used to different accents in your airspace and this helps a lot.

 

[tspear]

Emergency comms is an issue.
Play ATC recordings and have them document the case.

Get recordings of a southern drawl, valley girl, Bostonian, and mid Atlantic... All talking together for some flight sequence. Switching understanding between dilaects/accents is also a skill.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Have there been any accidents/incidents/near-nesses identified, in which one participant being ESL was contributory?
Normally we get some action from the FAA when they can identify a causal factor.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Have there been any accidents/incidents/near-nesses identified, in which one participant being ESL was contributory?
Normally we get some action from the FAA when they can identify a causal factor.

Hi there. The ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements came into effect in 2011 due to over 1000 deaths in which poor language proficiency was a contributing factor.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Emergency comms is an issue.
Play ATC recordings and have them document the case.

Get recordings of a southern drawl, valley girl, Bostonian, and mid Atlantic... All talking together for some flight sequence. Switching understanding between dilaects/accents is also a skill.

Tim

Sent from my HD1907 using Tapatalk

Yep I agree that familiarity with accents is essential. That would be a funny transmission!

 

[Rgbeard]

Yet to participate in this thread, it’s necessary to have limited proficiency in Latin.

“ab initio” could have been stated in English terms, but the OP chose to use Latin. Why?

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Yet to participate in this thread, it’s necessary to have limited proficiency in Latin.

“ab initio” could have been stated in English terms, but the OP chose to use Latin. Why?

Haha. Touche (there's some French thrown in too!). Ab initio sounds better than 'beginner student' (to my ears)

 

[Cap'n Jack]

Yet to participate in this thread, it’s necessary to have limited proficiency in Latin.

“ab initio” could have been stated in English terms, but the OP chose to use Latin. Why?

I'd suggest that, like many other words and phrases, "ab initio" is a loan word or an adoption from Latin and is now part of English, as is "touché"

 

[gkainz]

cool thread! Thanks for joining us, Maria!
Edit - thought I should explain a bit - not a CFI, but in software development where I've worked a lot with ESL ... I've found in the last few years my ability to understand English from a few of the particularly heavy accents influencing their English has degraded horribly - but goes hand in hand with my degraded hearing from years in a turboprop before noise cancelling headsets.
So, I need to address my hearing loss and see if my ESL comprehension improves.

 

[Salty]

In my experience with ESL situations discussing technical topics I've found that some people not only don't speak up when they don't understand, but they will say they understand even when asked directly. I've found it very useful to ask them to explain it back to me to determine whether they truly understood the concept(s) or not. Otherwise, you might as well be flipping a coin when you ask "did that make sense?".

Another thing I've learned, pointed out to me by a person who is a very fluent ESL, until they start thinking in English rather than trying to interpret to their language, make the thought connections, and then interpret back to English, they will struggle to understand quickly, and have to act like they understand and hope it makes sense to them later.

Those I have experience with that learned quickly, practiced thinking in English and voluntarily tested their understanding by trying to explain it back.

 

[G-Man]

Interesting to hear this talk of accents. I was raised outside NYC, lived in New England, Atlanta, and now Colorado. I've been around and heard lots of accents.

A few years ago, I rented a plane to fly out of Sugarland, TX airport, near Houston. Busy airspace, much hazier than I'm used to, somewhat stressful conditions, etc. But most of all...

I simply could not understand what the tower controller was saying. Not a bit. Couldn't even get a frame of reference to figure it out from context! Rental C172 radios and headset weren't the best, but not the worst. If I hadn't had a local instructor along, I wouldn't have been able to fly safely. It was surreal.

Kind of embarrassing. Hilarious, after the flight. But, man, there was one hell of a communication barrier.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

cool thread! Thanks for joining us, Maria!
Edit - thought I should explain a bit - not a CFI, but in software development where I've worked a lot with ESL ... I've found in the last few years my ability to understand English from a few of the particularly heavy accents influencing their English has degraded horribly - but goes hand in hand with my degraded hearing from years in a turboprop before noise cancelling headsets.
So, I need to address my hearing loss and see if my ESL comprehension improves.

Occupational hearing loss is a BIG issue for pilots!

 

[Maria Treadaway]

In my experience with ESL situations discussing technical topics I've found that some people not only don't speak up when they don't understand, but they will say they understand even when asked directly. I've found it very useful to ask them to explain it back to me to determine whether they truly understood the concept(s) or not. Otherwise, you might as well be flipping a coin when you ask "did that make sense?".

Another thing I've learned, pointed out to me by a person who is a very fluent ESL, until they start thinking in English rather than trying to interpret to their language, make the thought connections, and then interpret back to English, they will struggle to understand quickly, and have to act like they understand and hope it makes sense to them later.

Those I have experience with that learned quickly, practiced thinking in English and voluntarily tested their understanding by trying to explain it back.

The ability to paraphrase understanding is essential, but more important is the courage to speak up. This is why I advocate cultural acclimatisation lessons to make explicit the learning expectations involved. Western CFIs need and value engagement, but for Asians (for example) to question a teacher is disrespectful because it implies a deficiency in the teaching! On the otherside, CFIs need to learn the skill of concept checking rather than saying "Does that make sense", so for example, "if the ball is on the right, which rudder do you need to apply?" WAIT for the answer as opposed to a big explanation of an uncoordinated turn followed by "Does that make sense?"

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Interesting to hear this talk of accents. I was raised outside NYC, lived in New England, Atlanta, and now Colorado. I've been around and heard lots of accents.

A few years ago, I rented a plane to fly out of Sugarland, TX airport, near Houston. Busy airspace, much hazier than I'm used to, somewhat stressful conditions, etc. But most of all...

I simply could not understand what the tower controller was saying. Not a bit. Couldn't even get a frame of reference to figure it out from context! Rental C172 radios and headset weren't the best, but not the worst. If I hadn't had a local instructor along, I wouldn't have been able to fly safely. It was surreal.

Kind of embarrassing. Hilarious, after the flight. But, man, there was one hell of a communication barrier.

And I'm assuming you're a native English speaker? Just goes to show the challenges of comprehension. (Imagine being a non-native speaker too!)

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

Hi there. The ICAO Language Proficiency Requirements came into effect in 2011 due to over 1000 deaths in which poor language proficiency was a contributing factor.

Well, it seems the most reasonable question to ask next is, did this requirement reduce than number?
It has been almost a decade. That is a lot of deaths.

 

[MauleSkinner]

but for Asians (for example) to question a teacher is disrespectful because it implies a deficiency in the teaching!

ive always found it interesting how people, regardless of ethnic background, are willing to be offensive in their attempts not to offend.

 

[Maria Treadaway]

ive always found it interesting how people, regardless of ethnic background, are willing to be offensive in their attempts not to offend.

Just to clarify, I'm basing that comment on research (quantitative surveys and qualitative interviews) I have done with 32 Japanese and 56 Chinese ab initio cadets. These are Asian nations. Hence the comment.

 

[MauleSkinner]

Just to clarify, I'm basing that comment on research (quantitative surveys and qualitative interviews) I have done with 32 Japanese and 56 Chinese ab initio cadets. These are Asian nations. Hence the comment.

I’m basing my comment on the people I’ve worked with who choose to be offensive because they don’t want to offend. The people you interviewed apparently fit that mold.

 

[JuggyJet]

Hi all,

For the instructors out there who are training ab inito pilots who don't have English as their first language, what would you say are the biggest (language) challenges for these students/for you?

Also, for non English speaking ab initios, what do you find difficult in your practical flight training?

Cheers,

Maria

Hi Maria,

“I AM BASING ” my answers to your questions on my experience of being; an ESL speaker and student, an Asian immigrant, a teaching assistant (Economics) at University, a flight instructor at an ab-initio academy, and a captain for a US major airline.

Embarrassment is one of the biggest challenge for many foreign students. They already KNOW that their English is not that great; heavy accents, incorrect grammar, and difficulty in comprehending. They are already feeling some degree of embarrassment (inferiority in some cases) from their limited language skills. Then add to that not being able to understand what’s been taught due to the subject difficulty and/or simply due to their poor language skills. In some cases, they do not even know how to ask a question in English. To have the courage to ask a question is a challenge for those students.

For an instructor with a true desire to teach, promote a comfortable environment for students to learn. This really is true for all students, native and foreign.

As for difficulty in practical flight training, a thorough pre-flight briefing is the key to any successful practical flight lesson. Ground school is tough enough in English for those students; imagine that happening in a fast moving airplane. Without understanding the lesson’s goals, and not knowing what to expect during the flight will not just make the lesson difficult, but also dangerous.

Well, it’s well past five...Cheers!

 

[Maria Treadaway]

Hi Maria,

“I AM BASING ” my answers to your questions on my experience of being; an ESL speaker and student, an Asian immigrant, a teaching assistant (Economics) at University, a flight instructor at an ab-initio academy, and a captain for a US major airline.

Embarrassment is one of the biggest challenge for many foreign students. They already KNOW that their English is not that great; heavy accents, incorrect grammar, and difficulty in comprehending. They are already feeling some degree of embarrassment (inferiority in some cases) from their limited language skills. Then add to that not being able to understand what’s been taught due to the subject difficulty and/or simply due to their poor language skills. In some cases, they do not even know how to ask a question in English. To have the courage to ask a question is a challenge for those students.

For an instructor with a true desire to teach, promote a comfortable environment for students to learn. This really is true for all students, native and foreign.

As for difficulty in practical flight training, a thorough pre-flight briefing is the key to any successful practical flight lesson. Ground school is tough enough in English for those students; imagine that happening in a fast moving airplane. Without understanding the lesson’s goals, and not knowing what to expect during the flight will not just make the lesson difficult, but also dangerous.

Well, it’s well past five...Cheers!

Hahaha! What you're saying is completely reflected in the interviews I conducted too. That's why I think it's really important for CFIs to learn engagement skills (and be patient of course!)

 

[tspear]

@JuggyJet

Great point. I suck at languages, so I butcher them all. Hence I am never embarrassed trying to speak/butcher another language; but I know many others are embarrassed to try and feel foolish.
That must add another dimension to a difficult problem.

Tim