Beyond the syllabus...

flhrci

flhrci

Final Approach
Joined
Jan 26, 2007
Messages
5,932
Location
Groveport, OH
Display Name
Display name:
David
So, I was thinking....


I don't want to take advantage of my Private Pilot students money or anything but I want to teach them a few extra things beyond the syllabus like compass behaviors and how to fly an ILS or other radar based approaches like a PAR for emergency use. I also plan to go over every piece of avionics in the plane and every guage, not just for the check ride but for practical use. Talking stock 172S here.

For example, I was never taught how to use the intercom panel in a Piper Warrior in the mid 1990's and the first flight I took with a friend, the radios were deselected and I didn't know it on the ground or how to fix it and had to land. Don't do unto your students what was done or not done to you.

Is there anything else that you know now that you wish your CFI had shown you during your Private Pilot Training?

David
 
Flight following.
Intro to EFB (iPad, etc)
Self serve fuel and interacting w FBOs
 
+1 on the flight following! Too many new pilots come out with little to no understanding of how to use this important feature of our system.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with showing any approaches to a PP student.
 
...and most importantly, intro to POA
 
write-stuff said:
+1 on the flight following! Too many new pilots come out with little to no understanding of how to use this important feature of our system.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with showing any approaches to a PP student.
Click to expand...

I thought Flight Following was automatic for cross-country training. I require it for all student cross-countries not only as a backup but to help them get used to talking to ATC in various phases of flight. Wow.

I just thought teaching an approach like ILS would be a good emergency backup tool for them.

David
 
flhrci said:
I thought Flight Following was automatic for cross-country training. I require it for all student cross-countries not only as a backup but to help them get used to talking to ATC in various phases of flight. Wow.

I just thought teaching an approach like ILS would be a good emergency backup tool for them.

David
Click to expand...

I was never taught to use FF while training. The 1st time I used FF was on a 300+nm cross country while solo after my check ride.

Flight Following
Self service fuel
A flight in MVFR so that the student can have an idea of what VFR minimums look like
 
I wouldn't think that understanding each piece of aircraft equipment was optional. I flew in a 152 and 3 different 172s, each equipped differently. The CFI spent 10 mins talking about each item before we started the plane. So for example the transition to different audio panels was a non-factor.

The only non typical thing I did was some spin training. I was a bit freaked out by spins and wanted to experience them to get past that fear
 
flhrci said:
I just thought teaching an approach like ILS would be a good emergency backup tool for them.
Click to expand...

I have a student that was exceptionally good at flying instruments, so when he wasn't learning anything "new" doing the 3 hours of required hood time, I introduced him to flying few ILS's. I tried to make it clear though that as a non-instrument rated pilot this is to further his knowledge and should be for "emergency use", and not to be used to push VFR weather.

My Private Pilot CFI introduced me to a fairly busy Class C airport which I think is another good idea. Maybe class B clearances if they plan to fly in busy airspace.
 
Avionics and flight following,as opposed to press the direct to button.
 
1) Spins. Did that post-PPL and took much of the scare out of slow flight in the pattern.

2) Patterns at book numbers, not +5-10kts

3) Audio Panel including "isolate"

4) Real IMC and one approach.
 
1) "Isolate" function on the audio panel - figured that out on my own

2) The autopilot needed to be preflighted per the supplement in the POH - learned that from the DPE on the private checkride :eek:

3) How to use the E6B function on the KLN 89B GPS - Learned that from our charter pilot when I worked at an FBO.

4) The "70 degree method" of holding - Learned that in the Air Force.
 
Another vote for real IMC/MVFR conditions. The transition from VMC to inadvertent IMC can be very scary if you haven't experienced it before.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
1) "Isolate" function on the audio panel - figured that out on my own
Click to expand...

I figured out this one in a hurry when first flying kids :lol:


Gucci Pilot said:
2) The autopilot needed to be preflighted per the supplement in the POH - learned that from the DPE on the private checkride :eek:
Click to expand...

I learned why you want to do this the hard way I didn't preflight mine and got into a high workload situation in IMC, turned on the AP to help relieve some pressure and it turned on with no complaints and then didn't do what it was supposed to do... :yikes: I figured that out within seconds and turned it off again. When I had some time to troubleshoot later I discovered one of the servos had failed. I might have found this doing the precheck on the ground.



Gucci Pilot said:
4) The "70 degree method" of holding - Learned that in the Air Force.
Click to expand...

I'd like the hear about this
 
flhrci said:
Warthog,

Can you elaborate on that. I do not understand what you mean.

David
Click to expand...

Show and teach them what a pattern (and final) looks like at book speed- this means 30deg bank and 61KIAS for the 172S doing short field, instead of the 20 deg and 65-70KIAS most people use.

In other words, show them what the plane is really capable of, and teach them that instead of "add 5 kts for the wide & kids" as a normal procedure.
 
Knowing all the systems is sposed to be required....

For above and beyond stuff, here's what I like to do



Falling leaf stalls and, if possible, spins

Unimproved strip landings, for soft field work

IMC

Oil change and a offer a hand in the shop for a day or two if possible

Takeoff at night with no horizion

Touch and goes never letting the nose wheel touch (trikes)

Takeoff and landing without reference to your instruments

And ideally doing the entire PPL in a basic tailwheel is best.
 
warthog1984 said:
Show and teach them what a pattern (and final) looks like at book speed- this means 30deg bank and 61KIAS for the 172S doing short field, instead of the 20 deg and 65-70KIAS most people use.

In other words, show them what the plane is really capable of, and teach them that instead of "add 5 kts for the wide & kids" as a normal procedure.
Click to expand...

Interpreting this as slow flight or dragging the plane around the pattern trying to get max performance out of the plane at a slow speed?

David
 
James331 said:
Knowing all the systems is sposed to be required....
Click to expand...

Agreed, but I think enough for the test is not enough. GPS for instance. I can teach the direct to and nearest capabilities which is probably enough but I want to teach how to best use the moving map and CDI as well as integrating it with an autopilot. maybe even adding waypoints also. Precursor to using an iPad I suppose.

David
 
Gucci Pilot said:
3) How to use the E6B function on the KLN 89B GPS - Learned that from our charter pilot when I worked at an FBO.

4) The "70 degree method" of holding - Learned that in the Air Force.
Click to expand...

These are new to me and what to know more.

David
 
Good thread. I definitely agree that a lot of 'real world' type stuff isn't taught but I also realize that the lessons needed just to get through the training are jam packed and most folks don't know what they don't know so some of this stuff doesn't come up.

I remember my first dozen flights wanting to look at the map on the Garmin and not the CDI page. My CFI would always switch it back to the CDI page and finally I asked him why he preferred that to the map. In a couple minutes he explained it - it made sense and now of course, like most folks, I use the CDI page nearly all the time and rarely look at the map page.

We have a HSI in our plane so I went up with one of the other partners after my PPL and got a in-depth on how to use all of that stuff - specifically how to shoot an ILS and how to switch between using the heading bug and the GPS track for the autopilot, etc... For whatever reason we never messed with that during my training...or at least I don't recall doing so.

Kudos to the OP for wanting to include this stuff in his syllabus...I think your students will appreciate it as long as it gets covered at the right time of the training.
 
flhrci said:
Interpreting this as slow flight or dragging the plane around the pattern trying to get max performance out of the plane at a slow speed?

David
Click to expand...

Can your students confidently replicate the POH procedures? If not, teach them how.

This doesn't mean acting like a bush pilot and dragging it in with power and full flaps while the stall horn's blaring, but if they aren't comfortable bringing it in at 1.2Vso or doing 30 degree banks in the pattern- when warranted- something is missing.

BTW, accelerated stalls are a good thing to demonstrate/teach as well.
 
Last edited:
flhrci said:
I don't want to take advantage of my Private Pilot students money or anything but I want to teach them a few extra things beyond the syllabus like compass behaviors and how to fly an ILS or other radar based approaches like a PAR for emergency use. I also plan to go over every piece of avionics in the plane and every guage, not just for the check ride but for practical use. Talking stock 172S here.
Click to expand...
You can take that to extremes. While basic functions like D-> an airport, NRST airport, etc, would probably be appropriate, trying to teach a PP trainee how to make a GNS430 do LPV approaches or how to execute course reversal approaches with a KLN-94 really seems well beyond the scope of the PP program.

For example, I was never taught how to use the intercom panel in a Piper Warrior in the mid 1990's and the first flight I took with a friend, the radios were deselected and I didn't know it on the ground or how to fix it and had to land.
Click to expand...
Use of the audio panel/intercom does not seem beyond that scope, and I would expect a DPE to bust a PP applicant who could not select/deselect the radios or control the intercom.

Task G: Operation of Systems (ASEL and ASES)​
References: FAA-H-8083-23, FAA-H-8083-25; POH/AFM.​
Objective:​
​
​
​
​
To determine that the applicant exhibits satisfactory​

knowledge of the elements related to the operation of​
systems on the airplane provided for the flight test by​
explaining at least three of the following systems:​
...​
8. Avionics
Click to expand...
So, I don't see that as being "beyond the syllabus". Likewise, while I see teaching some basic "compass behaviors" like "don't try to set the HI against the MC while in a turn" as being required knowledge, trying to teach the trainee to do compass turns or timed turns seems inappropriate for PP.
 
Right, you nor anyone else has talked "beyond the syllabus".
If you read ALL of the PTS , including the references in each TASK, there is much much to be covered.
It's up to you, the CFIS, to try to tailor and direct the learning process to the most appropriate for that student and airplane and situation.
What you mean is, "beyond the rote PTS prep"...
 
I always like doing a couple of tailwind landings, just to show the differences.
 
If you present it to him optionally stuff he doesn't necessarily need for the test, but if you want to cover it it's a good idea, and they choose it, you are not taking advantage.
 
Ron Levy said:
You can take that to extremes. While basic functions like D-> an airport, NRST airport, etc, would probably be appropriate, trying to teach a PP trainee how to make a GNS430 do LPV approaches or how to execute course reversal approaches with a KLN-94 really seems well beyond the scope of the PP program.

Use of the audio panel/intercom does not seem beyond that scope, and I would expect a DPE to bust a PP applicant who could not select/deselect the radios or control the intercom.
So, I don't see that as being "beyond the syllabus". Likewise, while I see teaching some basic "compass behaviors" like "don't try to set the HI against the MC while in a turn" as being required knowledge, trying to teach the trainee to do compass turns or timed turns seems inappropriate for PP.
Click to expand...

Was not going to teach the IFR side of the GPS. AS far as compass stuff, was referring to compass behavior in turns. I was not taught it and not sure if it was in the groudn school course or not. been too long.

David
 
write-stuff said:
+1 on the flight following! Too many new pilots come out with little to no understanding of how to use this important feature of our system.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with showing any approaches to a PP student.
Click to expand...

We shot some approaches while I was under the hood. Good thing, IMO, if you screw up and get yourself into IMC conditions. At least you have an idea of what to expect when ATC talks to you.
 
flhrci said:
So, I was thinking....


I don't want to take advantage of my Private Pilot students money or anything but I want to teach them a few extra things beyond the syllabus like compass behaviors and how to fly an ILS or other radar based approaches like a PAR for emergency use. I also plan to go over every piece of avionics in the plane and every guage, not just for the check ride but for practical use. Talking stock 172S here.

For example, I was never taught how to use the intercom panel in a Piper Warrior in the mid 1990's and the first flight I took with a friend, the radios were deselected and I didn't know it on the ground or how to fix it and had to land. Don't do unto your students what was done or not done to you.

Is there anything else that you know now that you wish your CFI had shown you during your Private Pilot Training?

David
Click to expand...



Compass behavior isn't on the Private syllabus? Since when?

Seems like you already know one of the problems is teaching to minimum standards. However the student is first and foremost paying for the Private rating. And it's always been a license to learn. Focus on that first. If there's time during the training, show them other things.

If you want them to learn more after the rating, offer the additional services and work on the sales pitch. They also have to want it.

One DPE around here let's all IR candidates who pass know that he'll happily go flying with them in actual and help them out with instruction and time to get good at it. Even go reasonable distances to hunt for actual. Just call, he'll teach.

Tell your Private students you'd be happy to take a trip with them somewhere and show them how to utilize their new license to learn.

They can fly their whole lives without needing an instrument approach or rating if they make good weather decisions. If they're interested in doing an IR, then offer that service completely. Not as a "let's show you one just in case". That could lead to confidence that's not warranted.

As far as audio panels and such, that's usually covered in aircraft checkouts. Who checked you out in the Warrior? Why didn't they show you how everything in the panel worked?
 
flhrci said:
So, I was thinking....


I don't want to take advantage of my Private Pilot students money or anything but I want to teach them a few extra things beyond the syllabus like compass behaviors and how to fly an ILS or other radar based approaches like a PAR for emergency use. I also plan to go over every piece of avionics in the plane and every guage, not just for the check ride but for practical use. Talking stock 172S here.

For example, I was never taught how to use the intercom panel in a Piper Warrior in the mid 1990's and the first flight I took with a friend, the radios were deselected and I didn't know it on the ground or how to fix it and had to land. Don't do unto your students what was done or not done to you.

Is there anything else that you know now that you wish your CFI had shown you during your Private Pilot Training?

David
Click to expand...
My CFI taught me a lot of things beyond the syllabus when I was getting my private. It was a long time ago but I remember learning various stalls which were not required, spins, being talked through an instrument approach, doing a PAR, going up to South Lake Tahoe on a high altitude checkout, and probably other things I don't remember. But I ended up with 60-some hours before I took the test. Some might say he went overboard, but over the next few years I had subsequent instructors remark that they could tell I had good primary training.
 
denverpilot said:
Compass behavior isn't on the Private syllabus? Since when?

Seems like you already know one of the problems is teaching to minimum standards. However the student is first and foremost paying for the Private rating. And it's always been a license to learn. Focus on that first. If there's time during the training, show them other things.

If you want them to learn more after the rating, offer the additional services and work on the sales pitch. They also have to want it.

One DPE around here let's all IR candidates who pass know that he'll happily go flying with them in actual and help them out with instruction and time to get good at it. Even go reasonable distances to hunt for actual. Just call, he'll teach.

Tell your Private students you'd be happy to take a trip with them somewhere and show them how to utilize their new license to learn.

They can fly their whole lives without needing an instrument approach or rating if they make good weather decisions. If they're interested in doing an IR, then offer that service completely. Not as a "let's show you one just in case". That could lead to confidence that's not warranted.

As far as audio panels and such, that's usually covered in aircraft checkouts. Who checked you out in the Warrior? Why didn't they show you how everything in the panel worked?
Click to expand...

The two syllabi I have only mention use of compass on cross-country, not compass errors and such.

My Warrior "checkout" was my PPL training between two different Warriors and was done by my initial CFI. This is also the guy that would not wear a headset, and did not want me to wear one. After several lessons with headaches and hard to hear the radio and him yelling at me, I put my foot down, got a headset. He started wearing one to. One Warrior had a cruise prop, the other a climb prop which caused issues themselves with my training. AA lot of stuff was not explained to me and I didn't know to ask I suppose. This was all in 1996.

David
 
Last edited:
flhrci said:
The two syllabi I have only mention use of compass on cross-country, not compass errors and such.

My Warrior "checkout" was my PPL training between two different Warriors and was done by my initial CFI. This is also the guy that would not wear a headset, and did not want me to wear one. After several lessons with headaches and hard to hear the radio and him yelling at me, I put my foot down, got a headset. He started wearing one to. One Warrior had a cruise prop, the other a climb prop which caused issues themselves with my training. AA lot of stuff was not explained to me and I didn't know to ask I suppose. This was all in 1996.

David
Click to expand...

Compass errors are on the written so they should of been covered at some point in a part 61 training program. I used the AOPA syllabus and they were on it.

I've found with training if you don't know it's up to you or your student to ask. He may have assumed you knew the difference in the prop, or that you looked it up.. or it didn't occur to him. Tell your students to ask anything that they don't know so you can explain or find the answer. My experience getting my PPL was that it was very much self driven and required a lot of time and effort on my part to ensure I got it done.

The only thing I missed in my training was the emergency descent. Not power off descent but if you still have power and need to get down. On my checkride, the DPE told me to demonstrate it and because it never came up I just did what I would do if I had to get down quick and I guess I passed that part.

The other thing was how to put gas in a plane... I had seen it done plenty of times so the first time I flew my plane I sort of figured it out.
 
flhrci said:
Was not going to teach the IFR side of the GPS. AS far as compass stuff, was referring to compass behavior in turns. I was not taught it and not sure if it was in the groudn school course or not. been too long.

David
Click to expand...

You should have learned compass behavior in your ground course material, it is covered on the Knowledge test IIRC.
 
Henning said:
You should have learned compass behavior in your ground course material, it is covered on the Knowledge test IIRC.
Click to expand...


It is also on the Flight Test for Private as of the 2013 revision of the PTS:

"Demonstrates use of magnetic direction indicator in navigation, to include turns to new headings."

It has been interpreted by the DPEs around here as requiring use of the compass or a slaved heading indicator; since many trainers don't have a slaved heading indicator it requires a demonstration of at least some compass knowledge.
 
Everskyward said:
My CFI taught me a lot of things beyond the syllabus.... But I ended up with 60-some hours before I took the test. Some might say he went overboard, but over the next few years I had subsequent instructors remark that they could tell I had good primary training.
Click to expand...

+1. Same time also. He didn't charge for ground and usually spent a good 30 minutes pre and post flight (2007). Besides the usual, here were add ons:

1. ILS approaches during Class C requirements (3 total), basically how to tune in and navigate in an emergency.
2. Same flight after TNGs, hood UP and light gun simulation from tower.
3. Return flight home "trim and door navigation" in a C-152 (yolk failed by CFI).
That was a tiring but awesome flight for a student, and was rehearsed
on the ground so I got everything out of it in the air
4. FF on all flights out of the home area. Had to CTAF, then open FP with FSS then FF and not forget to close at end.
5. On my long solo XC I lost comms. Squawked 7600 and ATC ident to re-transit the Class C between me and home. Tried using the co-pilot side, I could receive but not transmit. My CFI showed me to push the radio in slightly next time as a final attempt (it worked when I landed).

We didn't get to spin a plane as the FBO wouldn't allow it. He encouraged me to take at least one acro session at another field and I did right after PPL (spins and aileron rolls).
 
Given my current attempt to reenter the aviation world, I'd say that teaching a student his/her way around an FBO, self-serve fueling, and introducing them to resources such as PoA will go a long way in helping future learning.

Outside of training or renting aircraft, I had no clue how the community worked, so I missed out on opportunities to network and make friends with others who are likely more experienced and may have valuable knowledge to share.

I can't stress enough that getting into aviation outside of a flight school is not intuitive unless you know someone or know how it all works. I didn't know you could go up to many small airports with nothing but curiosity. I'd assumed that if you weren't doing business there, you have no business there.
 
Pull the power in cruise flight and make them land. Not just "oh you have the field made" but do it near an actual airport and make them land it.
 
steingar said:
Pull the power in cruise flight and make them land. Not just "oh you have the field made" but do it near an actual airport and make them land it.
Click to expand...

That, of course, is fully covered in normal training, especially prior to solo x/c.
Of course, more challenging practice never hurts.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top