Best twin for building multi/complex time besides the Seminole

[schmookeeg]

Just thinking for fun here:

(I don't know the exact process, but here's the concept anyway.) Build an ultralight kit. Something like a Quicksilver - or whatever, basically the cheapest flying tricycle design you can find. Quicksilver advertises their Sport MX can be built in 30-40 hours. But plan to register it as an experimental, amateur-built (so it has an N-number and the time can count as airplane time).

As you build it, add another engine. Does this need to be a "normal" engine? I have no idea. Can it be an electric motor with a little propeller, like a drone motor/propeller, that provides no useful thrust? Just attach it any old place, on a wing strut or something. Would this count as a "multiengine" airplane? Fly it around burning <3 gph gaining lots of "multiengine" time but absolutely zero useful multiengine experience.

Have I discovered the ultimate loophole here? I want someone to show up at their airline interview with 1500 hours of multiengine Quicksilver time and let us know how it goes.

Using that logic, you can fly a C150 wearing some sort of motorized propeller beanie and log it as MEL

 

[Tantalum]

As far as piston GA that comfortably carry 6 adults, you are looking at the Piper Navajo (not only the Chieftain--the difference in cabin length mostly goes to cabinetry), Cessna 400-series twins, and maybe some other planes that you can't get insured in until you have a few hundred hours in smaller twins. We looked hard at a Navajo before we got the 310. We gave up on the Navajo due to insurance requirements and adjusted our aim for a 310 or Aztec, and the right 310 came along first

Thanks for the insight. Between the Aztec, Navajo, and the 310, the 310 looks the best for sure. I appreciate what a beast the Aztec is though. Navajo's are cool but a little too "corporate" or "commercial" looking. Cessna really nailed the lines on the 310!

 

[Llk]

What’s wrong with the Apache ???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Graybeard]

Anyone buying or renting to build time begs the question; why? If you are building toward flying professionally than 25 hours mulitengine is the going rate for most/all regional airlines. Corporate, would vary and getting a job would most likely be acquired by way of time and effort networking rather than multi time building. Even if money is no object, you risk alenaiting the people you interview with by "buying" your experience rather than earning it via more conventual means. Get your multi in the Seminole then follow up with a MEI, at this point you will have something just over 15 multi. Teach multi where you got the rating for at least 10 hours and you will save money, be a better pilot for having taugh and will be better respected when looking for your post CFI professional career.

 

[Fracpilot]

I had six people in my 310 a couple of times. All adult woman, though I did put the lighter ones in the back row and loaded the middle row first just to make sure... Wing lockers and baggage were full and the plane flew exactly like it did with just me on board. Well designed beast.

Love my 310!

 

[kep5niner]

Love my 310!

What he said!

 

[Pinecone]

All airplanes with N > 2 seats are really (N-2) + 2. I think that holds true for everything from the 3-seat Piper Pilot 100i through the C-5.

Hmm, (N-2)+2=N

So all airplanes carry as many people as there are seats.

 

[Anthem]

"best" probably King Airs, or other twin turbines. Jet even better. . obviously not the cheapest, but you didnt ask for that.

 

[eman1200]

this please

 

[IK04]

For building time you need a slow airplane. For multi- you need two or more engines.

Seems the Apache is the perfect answer...

 

[jsstevens]

Using that logic, you can fly a C150 wearing some sort of motorized propeller beanie and log it as MEL

Post videos!

 

[WDD]

Twin rotax - coolest plane on the ramp!

 

[farangutan]

Another twin rotax:

 

[2-Bit Speed]

Twin rotax - coolest plane on the ramp!

View attachment 115370

That looks like an absolute deathtrap and I want one. Or three.

 

[jsstevens]

In searching for places to do my MES rating, I've turned up a couple that use the Aircam (on floats of course). While I'd like to fly one someday for the experience, I'm looking at something else for the rating.

 

[ateamer]

Another twin rotax:
View attachment 115371

I got multiengine in a Twin Tecnam. It performed surprisingly well and was easy to fly. It did make a Rotax fan out of me.

Visibility from inside was poor, with top of the side window right about level with eyes. The gear took 20 seconds to retract, although I don’t know if it was unique to that particular plane.

If I was buying a four-seat twin I’d spend a heck of a lot less than the P2006T costs and get something with Lycomings - Seminole, Duchess, Travel Air, Twin Comanche.

 

[WDD]

In searching for places to do my MES rating, I've turned up a couple that use the Aircam (on floats of course). While I'd like to fly one someday for the experience, I'm looking at something else for the rating.

Aren’t there places where you go for an week of training to get your rating? Or are you looking for hours on top of that ?

 

[jsstevens]

Aren’t there places where you go for an week of training to get your rating? Or are you looking for hours on top of that ?

It's less than a week and yes, that's the sort of place I'm looking for. You can see the info here: https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...to-get-a-multi-engine-seaplane-add-on.141337/

 

[Lowflynjack]

I got multiengine in a Twin Tecnam. It performed surprisingly well and was easy to fly. It did make a Rotax fan out of me.

Visibility from inside was poor, with top of the side window right about level with eyes. The gear took 20 seconds to retract, although I don’t know if it was unique to that particular plane.

If I was buying a four-seat twin I’d spend a heck of a lot less than the P2006T costs and get something with Lycomings - Seminole, Duchess, Travel Air, Twin Comanche.

A friend of mine is working on becoming a corporate pilot. His boss has a lot of planes, but the only twins he has are three King Airs. He is buying a P2006T just so my friend can get his twin time in it. The justification was 10 gph. My first thought is for the $700K they're about to spend on this plane, you can put a lot of fuel in a King Air. I guess they can sell the plane after his training, but it still seems like a weird way for a multi-millionaire to save money. Then again, he didn't ask me! I'm sure it has something to do with taxes, or wear and tear on the King Air... not something a guy with my budget has to worry about.

 

[farangutan]

I got multiengine in a Twin Tecnam. It performed surprisingly well and was easy to fly. It did make a Rotax fan out of me.

Visibility from inside was poor, with top of the side window right about level with eyes. The gear took 20 seconds to retract, although I don’t know if it was unique to that particular plane.

If I was buying a four-seat twin I’d spend a heck of a lot less than the P2006T costs and get something with Lycomings - Seminole, Duchess, Travel Air, Twin Comanche.

The Tecnam is neat and fun to fly. But our school makes us burp the engines in preflight and that can take about half an hour. I'm not flying this thing in the summer in Tampa heat. Is that common on rotax engines? Is that just particular to the Tecnam, or just this Tecnam? If this is the norm, I wouldn't want to own one.

 

[Zeldman]

That looks like an absolute deathtrap

I'm telling ya. I have a fear of falling and I do not see any means of keeping myself from flopping over the side and doing a real solo.

I know it's not the fall that'll kill me....

 

[iamtheari]

The Tecnam is neat and fun to fly. But our school makes us burp the engines in preflight and that can take about half an hour. I'm not flying this thing in the summer in Tampa heat. Is that common on rotax engines? Is that just particular to the Tecnam, or just this Tecnam? If this is the norm, I wouldn't want to own one.

I think that burping the Rotax is the norm for the engine. I don’t know why it would take a half an hour to do twice, though.

 

[ateamer]

The Tecnam is neat and fun to fly. But our school makes us burp the engines in preflight and that can take about half an hour. I'm not flying this thing in the summer in Tampa heat. Is that common on rotax engines? Is that just particular to the Tecnam, or just this Tecnam? If this is the norm, I wouldn't want to own one.

Normal for all Rotax is my understanding. With the oil tank being separate from the crankcase, you need to pull the prop through to return all the oil to the tank and get a valid dipstick reading. It took up to six or eight blades on the P2006T that I flew, but for both engine that’s no more than two or three minutes total.

 

[C-1 PILOT]

I owned a Grumman Cougar and can attest to its economy compared to several other light twins. The only negative is the fact they rarely come up for sale and there aren’t that many of them compared to similar twins. Only 115 or so were built and only a few were “lost”. Support is good, the O-320’s sip fuel and are super reliable. It has presence on the ramp, more so than most twins. They were built like tanks hoping one day to push larger engines.

Socata bought the type certificate and configured a Cougar with IO-360’s, expecting to produce a trainer and more powerful and speedy personal light twin. Other than the prototype it never took off…pun intended…

 

[frfly172]

I totally enjoyed flying the beech travelair,a nice economical light twin. Twin 180 hp engines,not bad on fuel burn . Can cruise at 160 at 22 gph Fly it slow and you can burn 14 gph.

 

[Notrub]

I hate the tecnam twin. Hate is a harsh word but I will use hate burping two engines on a hot day the d thing needs a ladder to do anything to the engines…its way underpowered…etc etc i can keep going. A B55 or 58 is so choice in comparison.


Had to add something i like there is no king foo hand shake to make a rotex start hot…they just start.

 

[Pinecone]

In searching for places to do my MES rating, I've turned up a couple that use the Aircam (on floats of course). While I'd like to fly one someday for the experience, I'm looking at something else for the rating.

There are two WAY cool airplanes to get your MES in, that are actually available at a school.

1) Beech 18 on floats
2) Grumman Goose.

 

[Pinecone]

I owned a Grumman Cougar and can attest to its economy compared to several other light twins. The only negative is the fact they rarely come up for sale and there aren’t that many of them compared to similar twins. Only 115 or so were built and only a few were “lost”. Support is good, the O-320’s sip fuel and are super reliable. It has presence on the ramp, more so than most twins. They were built like tanks hoping one day to push larger engines.

Socata bought the type certificate and configured a Cougar with IO-360’s, expecting to produce a trainer and more powerful and speedy personal light twin. Other than the prototype it never took off…pun intended…

Bummer that it did not work out. I would love to find a Cougar and convert to IO-390s with MT props.

 

[jsstevens]

There are two WAY cool airplanes to get your MES in, that are actually available at a school.

1) Beech 18 on floats
2) Grumman Goose.

Yes and they are on my short list along with Grumman Widgeon.

 

[farangutan]

Normal for all Rotax is my understanding. With the oil tank being separate from the crankcase, you need to pull the prop through to return all the oil to the tank and get a valid dipstick reading. It took up to six or eight blades on the P2006T that I flew, but for both engine that’s no more than two or three minutes total.

Ok, 30 minutes is an exaggeration for the burping portion. They want us to burp until the oil reaches halfway up the dipstick. Took us over 20 turns once. I only started flying this thing in a few months ago. Good thing I always keep a spare shirt in my flight bag. I really like flying the plane.

 

[RussR]

There are two WAY cool airplanes to get your MES in, that are actually available at a school.

1) Beech 18 on floats
2) Grumman Goose.

Personally, I think an Aircam on floats would be a really cool plane to fly, and doing an MES in it sounds like a lot of fun to me. Yes, a Beech 18 or Goose would be great too. But it's not like getting my rating in any of them is going to result in long-term flying in any of them. So an Aircam would suit my wants just fine.

 

[SoonerAviator]

Yes and they are on my short list along with Grumman Widgeon.

Don't limit yourself. Find a PBY Catalina or a Grumman Albatross/Mallard!

 

[schmookeeg]

What is this burping business? I've never flown a rotax, and I always assumed they were the aviation equivalent of a honda civic engine. This is making it sound as fussy as any other aviation dinosaur motor.

 

[Pinecone]

Don't limit yourself. Find a PBY Catalina or a Grumman Albatross/Mallard!

Do you know of any schools using them?

There is at least one, maybe 2 schools that do the Beech 18. And one in Alaska that does the Goose.

 

[MarkH]

There are two WAY cool airplanes to get your MES in, that are actually available at a school.

1) Beech 18 on floats
2) Grumman Goose.

If you are buying, there is a Canadian company with an Aztec seaplane STC. They have been advertising it aggressively on Barnstormers as the Aztec Nomad.

 

[farangutan]

What is this burping business? I've never flown a rotax, and I always assumed they were the aviation equivalent of a honda civic engine. This is making it sound as fussy as any other aviation dinosaur motor.

This:

Except you have two engines and you need ladder.

 

[skier]

Just thinking for fun here:

(I don't know the exact process, but here's the concept anyway.) Build an ultralight kit. Something like a Quicksilver - or whatever, basically the cheapest flying tricycle design you can find. Quicksilver advertises their Sport MX can be built in 30-40 hours. But plan to register it as an experimental, amateur-built (so it has an N-number and the time can count as airplane time).

 

[Randomskylane]

There are two WAY cool airplanes to get your MES in, that are actually available at a school.

1) Beech 18 on floats

What school? Where? Enquiring minds want to know tia

 

[iamtheari]

What school? Where? Enquiring minds want to know tia

https://brookesseaplane.com/

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What is this burping business? I've never flown a rotax, and I always assumed they were the aviation equivalent of a honda civic engine.

Oil system is, well, unique.
Dry sump (that part is not unusual), but instead of using a pump or gravity to push the oil back to the tank, they whole crankcase assembly is sealed (no vent) and they use blowby to pressurize the crankcase a bit and push the oil back.
In some installations, oil can seep back to the crankcase and when you check the level it may appear low. So, turn the prop round and round to generate some blow by to pressurize the crankcase and push any oil there back to the tank. When the crankcase goes dry, you hear a gurgle from the tank.

The only time you need to burp is if the dipstick is low - burp before you add oil. But if the dipstick is OK, why bother with a burp? Given that the Rotax uses oil like your car (i.e. hardly none at all) it can be a pretty rare event that you get a low level on yea olde sticke (depending on the installation and how often you fly...)

About the only time I burp mine is before an oil change to make sure all of the old oil has made it back to the tank.