Best time to request amended altitude?

Jim_R

Jim_R

Pattern Altitude
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Jim
Say I want to follow fltplan.com's suggestion to file 24+ hrs in advance so the FAA can plan their traffic flow appropriately. (I'll ignore the fact that even when I file 15 min in advance it all seems to work just fine anyway.)

So I make my best guess at desired altitude when I file a day in advance, but when it comes time to launch I have fresh balloon data telling me there's a better altitude to fly than the one I filed.

When is the "best" time to make the request to amend my altitude?

Should I make that request to CD when I first call to pick up my clearance? Or should I wait until I'm airborne, and negotiate the change with ATC en route?
 
If you know before hand why not ammend it online before you fly. I use Duat and though I am sure I am missing something, it does not let you file earlier than 23 hrs and 59 minutes before and later than 30 minutes before. Prior to 30 minutes before you can ammend on line, after the plan is sent to ATC(which according to Duat is at 30 minutes(so also I am unsure how flying two days prior is going to help ATC))you need to ammend with ATC. In which case I would try when opening the plan and let them tell me if they can do it or do I need to do it after take off.
 
I would just refile. I have no idea if and how that screws up Fltplan.com's interface with the CDM+ program but it seems to work. Otherwise, negotiate a new final altitude with clearance if you have spare time on the ground or center once airborne.
 
I do this all the time, as soon as I get on with the ATC entity that will clear me for the climb I just say, "request XXX for a final".

Sometimes I change my mind just after I take off and get a better perspective on the weather.
 
I don't bother messing with the flight plan once it's filed - I just ask for a new altitude once airborne. Works every time.

I wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with clearance delivery. They themselves have to talk to the appropriate other controller to get approval, it just adds to the time on the ground. Once you're in the air, the controller you're talking to can change the request easier in most cases. Sometimes you may have to wait a minute while they coordinate if you're changing controllers with that altitude change, but usually not more than a few seconds to a minute.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
I don't bother messing with the flight plan once it's filed - I just ask for a new altitude once airborne. Works every time.

I wouldn't bother trying to negotiate with clearance delivery. They themselves have to talk to the appropriate other controller to get approval, it just adds to the time on the ground. Once you're in the air, the controller you're talking to can change the request easier in most cases. Sometimes you may have to wait a minute while they coordinate if you're changing controllers with that altitude change, but usually not more than a few seconds to a minute.
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Agreed.

...and don't be put off by ATC telling you to make your request with the next controller. It just means that the most expedient way to get your altitude is to wait for the next handoff and make the request again.
 
I concur with asking for the amended altitude in the air. I've also never in my life filed a flight plan more than 24 hours before...
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I would just refile. I have no idea if and how that screws up Fltplan.com's interface with the CDM+ program but it seems to work. Otherwise, negotiate a new final altitude with clearance if you have spare time on the ground or center once airborne.
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How do you do that "cleanly"? Since there's no way to positively delete the old plan once it's been filed, I have had confusion before when I tried to refile in the past. (Got my clearance as "cleared as filed", and assumed it was my refiled clearance, but controller apparently got the first filing I made, and it was ugly for a couple minutes. Don't ever want to do that again!)

I was expecting the answer would be, just talk to ATC once airborne. I like that answer--thanks for the confirmation.
 
Everskyward said:
I've also never in my life filed a flight plan more than 24 hours before...
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The actual scenario I envision is having convenient computer/printer/internet access 24+ hrs prior to departure, and that being the last convenient opportunity to submit my plan online and print the flight plan page for my kneeboard before going off the grid for a while.

I can be pretty confident in my route days in advance, but winds are the big variable....
 
Jim_R said:
The actual scenario I envision is having convenient computer/printer/internet access 24+ hrs prior to departure, and that being the last convenient opportunity to submit my plan online and print the flight plan page for my kneeboard before going off the grid for a while.
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OK, that makes sense. You mentioned something about it being a suggestion from fltplan.com in your first post, however.
 
Everskyward said:
OK, that makes sense. You mentioned something about it being a suggestion from fltplan.com in your first post, however.
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Well, it's a little combination of both, I guess. If I'm certain I'm going to be leaving at 8am Friday morning, I might also fill out the data on fltplan.com a couple days in advance and click the "file this" button, just to knock one more thing off the to-do list and to have the warm fuzzy that I'm giving the FAA the info they need to manage the skies safely and efficiently.

(gag, choke, cough cough cough). Wow...that last bit almost got me! :wink2:
 
Jim_R said:
How do you do that "cleanly"? Since there's no way to positively delete the old plan once it's been filed, I have had confusion before when I tried to refile in the past. (Got my clearance as "cleared as filed", and assumed it was my refiled clearance, but controller apparently got the first filing I made, and it was ugly for a couple minutes. Don't ever want to do that again!)
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Agreed. I NEVER amend my flight plan for this very reason. At least when ATC says, "as filed", I know for sure that they are talking about the one and only plan that I have filed.

Asking for an amended clearance is really not that much bother. The worst we ever hear from such requests is "unable" and we just carry-on.
 
Jim_R said:
Say I want to follow fltplan.com's suggestion to file 24+ hrs in advance so the FAA can plan their traffic flow appropriately. (I'll ignore the fact that even when I file 15 min in advance it all seems to work just fine anyway.)

So I make my best guess at desired altitude when I file a day in advance, but when it comes time to launch I have fresh balloon data telling me there's a better altitude to fly than the one I filed.

When is the "best" time to make the request to amend my altitude?

Should I make that request to CD when I first call to pick up my clearance? Or should I wait until I'm airborne, and negotiate the change with ATC en route?
Click to expand...

The FAA ATC does not plan their traffic flow based on GA filed flight plans. It makes no difference if you file 23 hrs, 12 hrs, or 30 minutes before departure.

They do plan based on airline flow, weather effects, or major events, such as a local NASCAR race or football game. A lot of pilots fly personal aircraft or corporate aircraft(jets) to these events.
 
HPNPilot1200 said:
I would just refile. I have no idea if and how that screws up Fltplan.com's interface with the CDM+ program but it seems to work. Otherwise, negotiate a new final altitude with clearance if you have spare time on the ground or center once airborne.
Click to expand...

Refiling will put you back in line for an EDCT if there is a program in place and you will have lost the benefit of having the CDM put your flight plan in line earlier. This can make a 2+ hour longer wait depending on the reason for the program.
 
Jim_R said:
Say I want to follow fltplan.com's suggestion to file 24+ hrs in advance so the FAA can plan their traffic flow appropriately. (I'll ignore the fact that even when I file 15 min in advance it all seems to work just fine anyway.)

So I make my best guess at desired altitude when I file a day in advance, but when it comes time to launch I have fresh balloon data telling me there's a better altitude to fly than the one I filed.

When is the "best" time to make the request to amend my altitude?

Should I make that request to CD when I first call to pick up my clearance? Or should I wait until I'm airborne, and negotiate the change with ATC en route?
Click to expand...

The best time is before departure.
 
The OP is talking altitude change not a re route. The "cleared as filed" issue should not be a problem because you will get an altitude assignment with the "cleared as filed" so that confusion should not be an issue even with an ammended flight plan.
Having said that, as Ted and others have said just request your new final when talking to ATC. It is a non issue.
 
Jim_R said:
Say I want to follow fltplan.com's suggestion to file 24+ hrs in advance so the FAA can plan their traffic flow appropriately. (I'll ignore the fact that even when I file 15 min in advance it all seems to work just fine anyway.)

So I make my best guess at desired altitude when I file a day in advance, but when it comes time to launch I have fresh balloon data telling me there's a better altitude to fly than the one I filed.

When is the "best" time to make the request to amend my altitude?

Should I make that request to CD when I first call to pick up my clearance? Or should I wait until I'm airborne, and negotiate the change with ATC en route?
Click to expand...

I request the change w/ ATC. 95% of the time it works without issue.
 
roncachamp said:
The best time is before departure.
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So I've got a bunch of pilots saying, "aw, just ask ATC" and a controller saying "get it before departure".

Is this just a difference of opinion? Pilots see it easier to just ask ATC, and ATC sees it easier if the pilot gets it on the ground?

Or is there additional rationale you know that I should be aware of?
 
ronnieh said:
The OP is talking altitude change not a re route. The "cleared as filed" issue should not be a problem because you will get an altitude assignment with the "cleared as filed" so that confusion should not be an issue even with an ammended flight plan.
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A different altitude may require a different route.

Having said that, as Ted and others have said just request your new final when talking to ATC. It is a non issue.
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Which ATC? Clearance delivery, ground, tower, departure, and center are all ATC.
 
Jim_R said:
So I've got a bunch of pilots saying, "aw, just ask ATC" and a controller saying "get it before departure".
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A controller that is also a pilot.

Is this just a difference of opinion? Pilots see it easier to just ask ATC, and ATC sees it easier if the pilot gets it on the ground?
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What does it mean to "ask ATC" vs. get it "on the ground"? Clearance delivery and ground control are ATC. Whatever position the request is directed to requires the same from the pilot; push the button and state the request. So what makes calling one any easier than another?

Or is there additional rationale you know that I should be aware of?
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A different altitude can change how the flight data is handled and may require a different route. Is it easier to copy a new route on the ground or while airborne?
 
Jim_R said:
So I've got a bunch of pilots saying, "aw, just ask ATC" and a controller saying "get it before departure".

Is this just a difference of opinion? Pilots see it easier to just ask ATC, and ATC sees it easier if the pilot gets it on the ground?

Or is there additional rationale you know that I should be aware of?
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No additional rationale.

When possible, file your plan as close to 30 mins before departure as you can and only file once. That will be when your requested altitude will most accurately reflect your desired altitude. It's good for you, it's good for ATC.

When requesting your clearance on the ground, don't bother changing your desired altitude until after takeoff. Requesting an amendment then will sometimes throw a small wrench into the works. But after all, once aloft, you will know a little bit more about the flight than you did while on the ground.

Otherwise, as PIC, request amendments when you see the need. ATC will do their best to accomodate while keeping the traffic separated. That's what they do.
 
Bill Watson said:
When requesting your clearance on the ground, don't bother changing your desired altitude until after takeoff. Requesting an amendment then will sometimes throw a small wrench into the works. But after all, once aloft, you will know a little bit more about the flight than you did while on the ground.
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So if the request does throw a wrench into the works it's better to deal with it while in the air than on the ground?
 
roncachamp said:
So if the request does throw a wrench into the works it's better to deal with it while in the air than on the ground?
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Comes down to knowing your area. But for a good portion of the country within the piston world, won't make much of a difference. And sometimes they just won't give you a different altitude, such as leaving Newark in the Navajo or Commander.
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Comes down to knowing your area. But for a good portion of the country within the piston world, won't make much of a difference. And sometimes they just won't give you a different altitude, such as leaving Newark in the Navajo or Commander.
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And it's never better to make the request in the air.
 
I have to say I'm in the camp of take the clearance you have (assuming it's safe just not what you want for altitude) and get airborne and work it out from there. If you get stuck at the other altitude it prob won't be for long other than in the busiest of airspaces. YMMV with controller mood, workload and your comfort level in the IFR system.
 
EvilEagle said:
I have to say I'm in the camp of take the clearance you have (assuming it's safe just not what you want for altitude) and get airborne and work it out from there. If you get stuck at the other altitude it prob won't be for long other than in the busiest of airspaces. YMMV with controller mood, workload and your comfort level in the IFR system.
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If you do it before departure you're not stuck at all.
 
roncachamp said:
So if the request does throw a wrench into the works it's better to deal with it while in the air than on the ground?
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Yes, when I've tried it in the past it seemed to through a wrench into the clearance delivery task. Not into the task of getting off the ground and underway.

Instead of a quick "cleared as filed", I get a standby. Maybe I would have gotten that anyway. Would I have?
 
roncachamp said:
And it's never better to make the request in the air.
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Why?

From a pilot's perspective, it sometimes seems that's the only meaningful place to make the request.

Example; I am normally cleared for any hemispherically correct altitude I file for out of 8NC8 with KRDU. If I see a wind advantage or a light turbulence pirep for a different altitude after filing but before calling clearance delivery, I'm probably not going to request a different altitude. There's just no advantage for me and there will be a delay on the phone. After takeoff, I will either wait to get to get handed off to the next approach controller or if going high enough, handed off to center. When I've asked RDU before the handoff, they tell me to make the request with the next controller - no problem. But here is the key, now that I'm up, I can sample actual conditions. Find out whether the pirep is still valid or if the actual winds match the forecast. Then I can make a more informed request for an amendment.

This may not apply if I was reacting to let's say some icing pireps that indicated a different altitude.
 
Bill Watson said:
Yes, when I've tried it in the past it seemed to through a wrench into the clearance delivery task. Not into the task of getting off the ground and underway.

Instead of a quick "cleared as filed", I get a standby. Maybe I would have gotten that anyway. Would I have?
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If the filed route, filed altitude, and new altitude were all acceptable, there is no reason not to provide a quick "cleared as filed". Unless the flight is completely within the airspace of the originating TRACON/ARTCC sector, the requested altitude will have to be amended by the person issuing the clearance. But that's a simple amendment and there's no need to delay issuing the clearance to perform it, it can be performed after issuance.

It's possible the new altitude will require a different route. If so, the "standby" response is given while CD enters the new altitude to see if a new route is generated. If the new altitude requires a new route it will be required wherever the new altitude request is made.
 
Bill Watson said:
Why?
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Because it offers no advantage.

From a pilot's perspective, it sometimes seems that's the only meaningful place to make the request.
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I have a pilot's perspective, it doesn't seem that way to me.

Example; I am normally cleared for any hemispherically correct altitude I file for out of 8NC8 with KRDU. If I see a wind advantage or a light turbulence pirep for a different altitude after filing but before calling clearance delivery, I'm probably not going to request a different altitude. There's just no advantage for me and there will be a delay on the phone. After takeoff, I will either wait to get to get handed off to the next approach controller or if going high enough, handed off to center. When I've asked RDU before the handoff, they tell me to make the request with the next controller - no problem. But here is the key, now that I'm up, I can sample actual conditions. Find out whether the pirep is still valid or if the actual winds match the forecast. Then I can make a more informed request for an amendment.
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Sounds like you're calling FSS, not CD. But no matter, you already know you want an altitude other than what you filed. Just tell FSS at that time and the controller can do whatever is needed before you leave the ground.
 
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If you listen to the high altitude sector, airlines change altitudes all day long, mostly for turbulence, sometimes for a wind advantage.
 
I don't agree with the 24 hour recommendation for the reasons mentioned previously.

I file after I've completed my final weather & flight planning, right before heading out to the airport. If I get a route or a altitude that I can't deal with (i.e. weather, icing, etc.), I work that out on the ground. Once I get up there and decide my filed route doesn't work for whatever reason, I negotiate with ATC as appropriate. As Steve mentioned, one thing I've learned around here is that changing altitude will often change my routing.

The exception is ATC seems to like to give me a clearance that routes me up through the middle of the DC FRZ, nearly over the Capitol, when I'm heading north or northeast. I never actually fly that route, but I've learned from experience its not worth arguing over it with the controller at the clearance desk. I always get a rerouting.
 
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