Best Beginner Plane for My Mission

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Blake Julian

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Blake
Ok I’m looking into getting my PPL. We get slow in the winter at work and I’m wanting to get my PPL by the end of January. That aside my mission would be Cross Country travel as I have friends and family in over 20 states. Getting my PPL has been a dream of mine since I was a kid. I would have got it sooner but building natural gas pipelines across the country hindered any free time. I’ve been looking at C172s and I’m really really liking P28s. My budget for the aircraft is $70,000-$75,000. I don’t want to go over that due to I’m also wanting to hangar it and I know I’m going to have to buy some extras… My flat rate yearly budget I have is $11,800. I shot high on my numbers I know but better be safe than sorry. I have
$3000:Hangar
$1500:Annual
$2300:Insurance
$5000:Maintenance

Am I far off or am I on the right track? What ever is left over on the maintenance will be rolled over into the next year. Little upgrades or updates would also be used out of the maintenance funds. What would be the best aircraft?
 
have you looked into the medical part yet? do that first, do some research on the medical section of this board and DO NOT fill up any online form whatsoever before you understand the implications.
 
Blake Julian said:
Ok I’m looking into getting my PPL. We get slow in the winter at work and I’m wanting to get my PPL by the end of January. That aside my mission would be Cross Country travel as I have friends and family in over 20 states. Getting my PPL has been a dream of mine since I was a kid. I would have got it sooner but building natural gas pipelines across the country hindered any free time. I’ve been looking at C172s and I’m really really liking P28s. My budget for the aircraft is $70,000-$75,000. I don’t want to go over that due to I’m also wanting to hangar it and I know I’m going to have to buy some extras… My flat rate yearly budget I have is $11,800. I shot high on my numbers I know but better be safe than sorry. I have
$3000:Hangar
$1500:Annual
$2300:Insurance
$5000:Maintenance

Am I far off or am I on the right track? What ever is left over on the maintenance will be rolled over into the next year. Little upgrades or updates would also be used out of the maintenance funds. What would be the best aircraft?
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Does your yearly budget include reserves for an engine overhaul? I don't think it does..

Generally for the math to work out you have to fly 60 to 100 hours a year to make owning a plane worth it..

Otherwise the Piper PA-28 are awesome and would be fantastic for your mission..

Good luck!

PS from the research I have done your numbers don't seem that far off other than the whole engine reserve issue..
 
An engine overhaul would be around $20-$30k correct? How do you budget that big of an amount in? Or are you saying I should have like a $10k a year reserve for the when the overhaul needs to happen?
 
Seems generally reasonable, as long as you are aware of the looming OH timing and cost and/or reserve funds required. The first 2-3 years of owning a new (to you) plane will likely have higher than normal maintenance costs as you clean up the previous owner's deferred maintenance. Also consider the likely cost of deferred or necessary upgrades to avionics, especially for an XC or IFR plane.. Those tend to come in up to $10k chunks.
 
what do u mean by "flat rate budget"?
 
Blake Julian said:
An engine overhaul would be around $20-$30k correct? How do you budget that big of an amount in? Or are you saying I should have like a $10k a year reserve for the when the overhaul needs to happen?
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If the OH is $30k and you have a likely 1000 hours left on the engine, you need to set aside $30/hr or just have the means to write a $30k check at any time. Bear in mind engines don't always make TBO. Depends on how they have been treated in the past.
 
Gonna be tough to find a Bonanza in that price range but I've learned from the best ... that's the answer to the question. :D

$1500.00 for annual is possible until they need to replace a jug ... or two.
 
Eman1200 by flat rate I mean costs that never change year to year their always the same (except inflation).

chemgeek so would a $10,000 a year maintenance reserve be more reasonable then a 5k? Yes I can do it but I wasn’t really wanting to if not needed. I mean yes I’m sure the maintenance and stuff will fluctuate year to year but at a median mark what should I expect. I’ll be turning my own wrenches the best I can as far as services and such without expensive “special tools”. I’m a marine mechanic now and former pipeliner and I’ve worked on semi trucks and my own diesel trucks and vehicles.
 
Daleandee said:
Gonna be tough to find a Bonanza in that price range but I've learned from the best ... that's the answer to the question. :D

$1500.00 for annual is possible until they need to replace a jug ... or two.
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I found a 53 Bonanza for $63,000 in Boliver, MO
 
Blake Julian said:
chemgeek so would a $10,000 a year maintenance reserve be more reasonable then a 5k?
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It's more complicated than that. Maintenance + upgrade costs are quite episodic. When everything is working, you might only spend $1500-$3000 per year on annual plus maintenance depending on the aircraft type. But a cylinder replacement, avionics failure, fuel sende failure, etc., or needed/desired avionics upgrade might create a large one-time bill. How many those you might encounter depends on what comes with your plane, and how long you own it, and whether or not you operate IFR.
 
I want to be able to operate IFR. So having deeper pockets available at all times is necessary. What’s a low time for an engine after an overhaul and don’t they normally last between 1500 and 2000 hours on a good overhaul job?
 
WannFly said:
have you looked into the medical part yet? do that first, do some research on the medical section of this board and DO NOT fill up any online form whatsoever before you understand the implications.
Click to expand...

Im not to worried about the medical as I’m in pretty good health with perfect vision and rarely ever even take a Tylenol. I also have to take a DOT physical every two years in order to keep my CDL valid
 
The O-320 on a Warrior will go way beyond TBO if it is flown regularly.

The big thing about a PA-28 is the spar issues. Research that carefully before buying a Cherokee.
 
Blake Julian said:
I want to be able to operate IFR. So having deeper pockets available at all times is necessary. What’s a low time for an engine after an overhaul and don’t they normally last between 1500 and 2000 hours on a good overhaul job?
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How long an engine will last before needing overhaul depends on many factors, including, who did the last overhaul and to what standards, how the engine is flown, and how frequently the engine is flown. The local flight school planes are going well past 2400 hours SMOH on field overhauls. They fly a ton. Planes that fly 10-20 hours a year may rot out from within well before TBO even with a high quality rebuild. There are a couple of those on the field with low time engines. But a quality overhaul treated and maintained well, and flown regularly, should normally be expected to make around TBO hours. Used engines are always a bit of a pig in a poke. The only way you really know how your engine was rebuilt and treated is to do the OH yourself.
 
Blake Julian said:
I want to be able to operate IFR.
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IFR ups the ante for avionics. It's cheaper to get the desired avionics in the purchased plane, but upgrades or replacements are probably inevitable. Plus all those IFR avionics is more stuff to fail.

The basic consideration is just be prepared for periodic unexpected and substantial outlays.
 
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chemgeek said:
How long an engine will last before needing overhaul depends on many factors, including, who did the last overhaul and to what standards, how the engine is flown, and how frequently the engine is flown. The local flight school planes are going well past 2400 hours SMOH on field overhauls. They fly a ton. Planes that fly 10-20 hours a year may rot out from within well before TBO even with a high quality rebuild. There are a couple of those on the field with low time engines. But a quality overhaul treated and maintained well, and flown regularly, should normally be expected to make around TBO hours. Used engines are always a bit of a pig in a poke. The only way you really know how your engine was rebuilt and treated is to do the OH yourself.
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The plan is to do as much as possible myself. It’ll be me doing my hobby (turning wrenches) along with learning something new. The only thing I don’t know much about is wiring so avionics would be included in that. I know like 12v,24v, I can make things 36volts but that’s about it lol. I take pride in my work and I don’t trust to many people working on my stuff. I’m great with logging everything too.
 
JimNtexas said:
The O-320 on a Warrior will go way beyond TBO if it is flown regularly.

The big thing about a PA-28 is the spar issues. Research that carefully before buying a Cherokee.
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I actually found a Piper Arrow II I really like for the price. It’s a 74 for $78,000. It’s a little over what I wanted to spend but I’m not going to let $3k come between me and it. Here’s the description:

1974 Piper Arrow II PA-28R-200 TTAF: 5844 SMOH: 465 SPOH: 465 (times subject to change as plane is still being flown) Avionics: King kx155 Nav/Com TKM mx170c Nav/Com King kln89b GPS Garmin GTX327 transponder King kma20 audio panel King kn64 dme Piper Autocontrol autopilot uAvionics wingtip ADS-B IFR Certification: 5/4/2021 Exterior/Interior: 7/7 Useful load: 968.2 Last annual: 4/01/2021 Engine: IO-360-C1C Prop: Hartzell HC-C2YK-1BF With recent changes in mission we have decided to sell our Arrow. If you are in the market I encourage you to reach out and discuss this plane with me. The plane is in solid shape and has good times. Many convenient features on top of what is listed above such as electric trim, rudder trim, pilot/copilot toe brakes, 4 place intercom, dual push to talk, cabin blower, and several more features. Complete logs. Everything that is equipped works like it should.
 
chemgeek said:
IFR ups the antenna for avionics. It's cheaper to get the desired avionics in the purchased plane, but upgrades or replacements are probably inevitable. Plus all those IFR avionics is more stuff to fail.

The basic consideration is just be prepared for periodic unexpected and substantial outlays.
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I hear ya it’s just like owning anything else I guess. Gotta pay to have it when you need it. My 2017 F350 transmission taught me that. Lol 73k miles and spent $8k putting a trans in.
 
Bonanzas and to a lesser extent Arrows don't seem like beginner planes to me, at least from an ownership perspective.
 
asicer said:
Bonanzas and to a lesser extent Arrows don't seem like beginner planes to me, at least from an ownership perspective.
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Are you saying something like a 172 would be better because their more forgiving? I’m new to this. I have a buddy with a 1945 Cub and he said I should go with a 172 because their easier to fly. Just trying to get opinions and advice as anyone would get a second doctors opinion before a life altering surgery.
 
Asicer he also said Cessnas are slower but cheaper to maintain and cheaper insurance…. Is he correct?
 
Blake Julian said:
Are you saying something like a 172 would be better because their more forgiving? I’m new to this. I have a buddy with a 1945 Cub and he said I should go with a 172 because their easier to fly. Just trying to get opinions and advice as anyone would get a second doctors opinion before a life altering surgery.
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Your original post focused on fixed costs. A fixed-pitch, fixed-gear plane with a parallel valve 4cyl carbureted Lycoming will have fewer variable costs.
 
asicer said:
Your original post focused on fixed costs. A fixed-pitch, fixed-gear plane with a parallel valve 4cyl carbureted Lycoming will have fewer variable costs.
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Ok so what plane would suggest?
 
Very cool that you are driven to fly. Strongly suggest that you get some time in a couple of planes to find out what you like better. People often are drawn toward either low wing or high wing, and sometimes change their mind after actually flying them. Getting a discovery flight in a 172 and a Cherokee would be a good investment, in my view.

The most cost effective aircraft to learn in aren't necessarily the most cost effective for owning and taking trips, especially with passengers. There's a reason many flight schools are flying 172's and PA-28-150's. They are both great trainers, fly great, no bad habits, low cost per hour. But they might not be great for long trips, particularly payload.

As far as an Arrow or Bonanza goes, my understanding, 3rd hand, is that insurance for low time private pilots in an airplane with retracts can be high. No idea what it might be for a student pilot, but I'd sure check that out...actually for any aircraft...before buying. Either way, good luck! If you're doing pipeline work you're already used to challenges. Just do your homework first.
 
Blake Julian said:
Im not to worried about the medical as I’m in pretty good health with perfect vision and rarely ever even take a Tylenol. I also have to take a DOT physical every two years in order to keep my CDL valid
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Alright. Just want to make sure you are aware. A lot of people fill up the medical form and answers Q no 18 (if memory serves) without understanding implications.

I say go for the PA28…. But I might be wee bit biased, so there is that
 
Blake Julian said:
The plan is to do as much as possible myself. It’ll be me doing my hobby (turning wrenches) along with learning something new. The only thing I don’t know much about is wiring so avionics would be included in that. I know like 12v,24v, I can make things 36volts but that’s about it lol. I take pride in my work and I don’t trust to many people working on my stuff. I’m great with logging everything too.
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Working yourself is possible if you find a IA who will sign off on it. Plenty out there.
 
Blake Julian said:
Im not to worried about the medical as I’m in pretty good health with perfect vision and rarely ever even take a Tylenol. I also have to take a DOT physical every two years in order to keep my CDL valid
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I don’t think the DOT physical is as picky, so still be careful. For example, I’m not sure if DOT physicals care if you were diagnosed with ADHD when you were 12 or had a DUI with no conviction 20 years ago as the Faa does.
 
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This reminds me of my approach to ownership when I first considered it. It’s really close to impossible to budget for these things. You don’t want to let it sit and rot if a major repair is needed, that’s bad for the plane and your proficiency. And you certainly don’t want to defer necessary repairs. I’ve spent more than my budget every year I’ve owned. Mostly because I have made continuous improvements along the way. The way I afford it is living in an airport community (hangar rent is part of my mortgage), being good friends with an AP/Ia and doing a lot of the work myself. But that’s a life choice most can’t make.
 
Blake Julian said:
I found a 53 Bonanza for $63,000 in Boliver, MO
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My answer was somewhat the standard "house answer" for this forum and a bit tongue in cheek. That might be a bit too much airplane to begin with both cost and training wise.
 
A retract (Arrow, Bonanza) will require you to change your insurance number by quite a bit, particularly as a student pilot.
 
Do you have flight school rental options near your home base, or wherever you intend to take lessons? There can be good reasons to buy and own the plane you do your initial PPL training in, but my general advice to any new pilot is to just rent from your flight school until you get your PPL. You'll have a much better idea about what you might want after that.
 
Jim Carpenter said:
Do you have flight school rental options near your home base, or wherever you intend to take lessons? There can be good reasons to buy and own the plane you do your initial PPL training in, but my general advice to any new pilot is to just rent from your flight school until you get your PPL. You'll have a much better idea about what you might want after that.
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Yes there is an the C172 is $145hr wet. The reason I was looking into buying is so I could train in my own aircraft and learn it during my ppl. I’m not about to spend this kind of money on a ppl either for it just to sit there. I want to use it! I see your point though. Also I wasn’t looking into the bonanza. I have looked into Mooneys but aren’t they a little faster?
 
Suggest you learn to land in a rental. Then get serious about buying, you can bang up someone else's plane first. You'll add 5 or 10 hours to training transitioning to the new plane. Also, you mentioned fixed gear better option, but keep coming up with retracts (Arrow, Mooney) as potential buys. Cherokee or 172 are good beginner planes and still useful after PP. You can always get higher performance later.
 
Blake Julian said:
Ok so what plane would suggest?
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Aero Commander Lark
Beech C23
Cessna 172
Cessna 177A
Grumman AA5/AA5B
Piper PA28
Partenavia Oscar
Socata Rally
TB9
Robin DR300/DR400
 
Hang 4 said:
Suggest you learn to land in a rental. Then get serious about buying, you can bang up someone else's plane first. You'll add 5 or 10 hours to training transitioning to the new plane. Also, you mentioned fixed gear better option, but keep coming up with retracts (Arrow, Mooney) as potential buys. Cherokee or 172 are good beginner planes and still useful after PP. You can always get higher performance later.
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I ment the landing gear comment as a question… sorry forgot my question mark. Your right about renting too I guess. I didn’t think of it that way about beating up someone else’s plane while I get some hours in different planes. I guess I need to look up other airports to see what’s out there because the local airport only has that C172
 
chemgeek said:
If the OH is $30k and you have a likely 1000 hours left on the engine, you need to set aside $30/hr or just have the means to write a $30k check at any time. Bear in mind engines don't always make TBO. Depends on how they have been treated in the past.
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An example of what chemgeek is saying, me and my partner charge ourselves $65/hr dry rate when we use the plane. After 5 years we have $20k for engine reserve, with another 400 hours til we get to TBO. All other expenses are out of pocket.
 
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